Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"pumpf" said:
With a couple of strategic releases... and re-structuring/re-signing Cousins... and this increased Cap: we could/should be OK for the foreseeable future.
Go to over the cap and play with the Vikings cap numbers. The team isnt OK if you look realistically at trying to fill the holes that need filling without kicking the can down the road and just making a mess for future years. We have a lot of players of our own to resign as well as replacing those guys that everybody wants to cut, or areas that need improvement.
IIRC the team is going to be about 4 million over the cap just to start the year and that's with about 1.5 million rolling over from this year.
Cousins is set to make 31 this year, I doubt he signs for less than that on average and will want at least that much this year, I dont see his next contract being the big cap savings that some want to think it will be. Maybe I'm wrong but his past comments suggest he is all business when it comes to his pay.
I'm with Pumpf on this one. There are several places we can save money if we choose to. There are several aging players who are making very big money but not playing up to it: Rhodes, Waynes, Joseph, Reiff. A couple others who are expensive and aging but playing well in Harry, Griffen and Rudy. Sure, we have to sign Ant Harris and we have to replace the players we cut. But there is definitely flexibility. Say the cap does go up $12M like they're saying, and all we do is release Rhodes. Just doing THAT gives the team $25M more.
And I've said this before, but I think what Cousins wants more than anything else is stability. Commitment. To be loved. You give him a 5 year deal, let him finish his career in Minnesota, he might just take less per year. Or the same per year...which would be less in comparison to the cap. See, that's what people don't get. It's just the way the NFL works. People get all worked about contracts and in a year or two, it's seen as peanuts. For example, when Cousins signed his deal, it was thought to be crazy by a lot of people. In terms of total value, it now ranks 14th. In terms of average per year and guaranteed money, it's now 7th.
Right on, Maroon. I have a feeling that we could see some interesting moves this offseason. Rhodes, Griffen, Reiff, and Joseph all seem like candidates to restructure their deals to be more in line with their age and production. None of them have large cap hits in 2020 so there is incentive for them to restructure if they want to be here... otherwise, I could see the team cutting them and looking to get younger (and cheaper).
For instance, cutting Rhodes probably allows the Vikings to keep Harris and one of Waynes or Alexander. Releasing Griffen opens up some money to re-sign Weatherly and have some additional cap flexibility. Cutting Reiff opens up a big chunk of space and moves OL to the top of the list of needs in FA or the draft.
Bottom line, even with the cap going up, the Vikings will be forced to make some moves after this season and it may be surprising who stays and who goes. Heck, we might even see some of these guys shopped for draft picks... as Jimmy pointed out, the Vikings won't have much cap space in 2020, but they have plenty of options to free up money if they want to do it.
If we've learned anything over the years, Brez is a cap guru and will find a way to keep who we want in house and still have money to add some pieces. I'm not worried about it.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"pumpf" said:
With a couple of strategic releases... and re-structuring/re-signing Cousins... and this increased Cap: we could/should be OK for the foreseeable future.
Go to over the cap and play with the Vikings cap numbers. The team isnt OK if you look realistically at trying to fill the holes that need filling without kicking the can down the road and just making a mess for future years. We have a lot of players of our own to resign as well as replacing those guys that everybody wants to cut, or areas that need improvement.
IIRC the team is going to be about 4 million over the cap just to start the year and that's with about 1.5 million rolling over from this year.
Cousins is set to make 31 this year, I doubt he signs for less than that on average and will want at least that much this year, I dont see his next contract being the big cap savings that some want to think it will be. Maybe I'm wrong but his past comments suggest he is all business when it comes to his pay.
I'm with Pumpf on this one. There are several places we can save money if we choose to. There are several aging players who are making very big money but not playing up to it: Rhodes, Waynes, Joseph, Reiff. A couple others who are expensive and aging but playing well in Harry, Griffen and Rudy. Sure, we have to sign Ant Harris and we have to replace the players we cut. But there is definitely flexibility. Say the cap does go up $12M like they're saying, and all we do is release Rhodes. Just doing THAT gives the team $25M more.
And I've said this before, but I think what Cousins wants more than anything else is stability. Commitment. To be loved. You give him a 5 year deal, let him finish his career in Minnesota, he might just take less per year. Or the same per year...which would be less in comparison to the cap. See, that's what people don't get. It's just the way the NFL works. People get all worked about contracts and in a year or two, it's seen as peanuts. For example, when Cousins signed his deal, it was thought to be crazy by a lot of people. In terms of total value, it now ranks 14th. In terms of average per year and guaranteed money, it's now 7th.
Waynes isn't under contract next year. In fact, the Vikings are over the cap with having only 37 players signed (as of now). They need to make room just to fill out the roster with 16 spots not considering any other move.
Cutting Rhodes next year only creates $8.1M. That's only enough to get the Vikings out of the red and sign draft picks. Depending on how many draft picks stick, there will still be a lot of holes. Say the Vikings stick with 7 draft picks, along with cutting Rhodes, that's still 10 roster spots. Every player under contract that is cut is another that needs to be replaced.
As far as Cousins' contract, he has the 2nd highest cap hit in the NFL this year. Next year that drops to 6th. He has stated he feels it's his duty to set the QB salary bar high for future QBs. He used the Jets as leverage to get more from the Vikings. He planned his contract to be up at the end of the CBA. It's crazy to think that he's going to give the Vikings a discount. If I were to guess, I would say expect another 3 year deal in the $105M area and he's probably shooting for fully guaranteed again. He will have been playing on a fully guaranteed contract for 5 years, why give that up?
And for those that say he likes it here, that's the same thing he said in DC, but the money wasn't good enough.
Quote: @"silverjoel" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"pumpf" said:
With a couple of strategic releases... and re-structuring/re-signing Cousins... and this increased Cap: we could/should be OK for the foreseeable future.
Go to over the cap and play with the Vikings cap numbers. The team isnt OK if you look realistically at trying to fill the holes that need filling without kicking the can down the road and just making a mess for future years. We have a lot of players of our own to resign as well as replacing those guys that everybody wants to cut, or areas that need improvement.
IIRC the team is going to be about 4 million over the cap just to start the year and that's with about 1.5 million rolling over from this year.
Cousins is set to make 31 this year, I doubt he signs for less than that on average and will want at least that much this year, I dont see his next contract being the big cap savings that some want to think it will be. Maybe I'm wrong but his past comments suggest he is all business when it comes to his pay.
I'm with Pumpf on this one. There are several places we can save money if we choose to. There are several aging players who are making very big money but not playing up to it: Rhodes, Waynes, Joseph, Reiff. A couple others who are expensive and aging but playing well in Harry, Griffen and Rudy. Sure, we have to sign Ant Harris and we have to replace the players we cut. But there is definitely flexibility. Say the cap does go up $12M like they're saying, and all we do is release Rhodes. Just doing THAT gives the team $25M more.
And I've said this before, but I think what Cousins wants more than anything else is stability. Commitment. To be loved. You give him a 5 year deal, let him finish his career in Minnesota, he might just take less per year. Or the same per year...which would be less in comparison to the cap. See, that's what people don't get. It's just the way the NFL works. People get all worked about contracts and in a year or two, it's seen as peanuts. For example, when Cousins signed his deal, it was thought to be crazy by a lot of people. In terms of total value, it now ranks 14th. In terms of average per year and guaranteed money, it's now 7th.
Waynes isn't under contract next year. In fact, the Vikings are over the cap with having only 37 players signed (as of now). They need to make room just to fill out the roster with 16 spots not considering any other move.
Cutting Rhodes next year only creates $8.1M. That's only enough to get the Vikings out of the red and sign draft picks. Depending on how many draft picks stick, there will still be a lot of holes. Say the Vikings stick with 7 draft picks, along with cutting Rhodes, that's still 10 roster spots. Every player under contract that is cut is another that needs to be replaced.
As far as Cousins' contract, he has the 2nd highest cap hit in the NFL this year. Next year that drops to 6th. He has stated he feels it's his duty to set the QB salary bar high for future QBs. He used the Jets as leverage to get more from the Vikings. He planned his contract to be up at the end of the CBA. It's crazy to think that he's going to give the Vikings a discount. If I were to guess, I would say expect another 3 year deal in the $105M area and he's probably shooting for fully guaranteed again. He will have been playing on a fully guaranteed contract for 5 years, why give that up?
And for those that say he likes it here, that's the same thing he said in DC, but the money wasn't good enough.
No, this is different than DC. Sure, he said all the right things because he's not a stupid man, but he was treated like shit there and everyone knew it.
I have no illusions that money is unimportant to Cousins, but I do sense that what is more important to him, at age 31, is commitment. What that represents in terms of cap is anyone's guess, but I don't really see him as part of the cap puzzle anyway. That will come from the cap increase, the decision on Rhodes, Griffen, Reiff, etc. There are a few options. And it's no accident that the dead money involved in each of those players is not crippling.
Sure, they have to be replaced. Of course they do. Some you'll replace with draft picks and some you'll replace from the roster, but it's just what good teams do, every year.
I see it like this: There are roughly 1600 players in the NFL. About 150 of those players are elite. But the gap in talent between, say, player 300 and player 900 isn't really that great. Its why we can play a team like Seattle who had several players out and they still beat us. It's not like those replacement players are schmucks. Or when Reiff or Kline or Gedeon go down, it's not like Hill, Dozier and Wilson are going to prevent you from winning. Fantasy has a name for this. It's called "value over replacement." For a guy like Thielen or Diggs or Hunter, it's very high. For a guy like Reiff or Rhodes, meh, not so much.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"silverjoel" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"pumpf" said:
With a couple of strategic releases... and re-structuring/re-signing Cousins... and this increased Cap: we could/should be OK for the foreseeable future.
Go to over the cap and play with the Vikings cap numbers. The team isnt OK if you look realistically at trying to fill the holes that need filling without kicking the can down the road and just making a mess for future years. We have a lot of players of our own to resign as well as replacing those guys that everybody wants to cut, or areas that need improvement.
IIRC the team is going to be about 4 million over the cap just to start the year and that's with about 1.5 million rolling over from this year.
Cousins is set to make 31 this year, I doubt he signs for less than that on average and will want at least that much this year, I dont see his next contract being the big cap savings that some want to think it will be. Maybe I'm wrong but his past comments suggest he is all business when it comes to his pay.
I'm with Pumpf on this one. There are several places we can save money if we choose to. There are several aging players who are making very big money but not playing up to it: Rhodes, Waynes, Joseph, Reiff. A couple others who are expensive and aging but playing well in Harry, Griffen and Rudy. Sure, we have to sign Ant Harris and we have to replace the players we cut. But there is definitely flexibility. Say the cap does go up $12M like they're saying, and all we do is release Rhodes. Just doing THAT gives the team $25M more.
And I've said this before, but I think what Cousins wants more than anything else is stability. Commitment. To be loved. You give him a 5 year deal, let him finish his career in Minnesota, he might just take less per year. Or the same per year...which would be less in comparison to the cap. See, that's what people don't get. It's just the way the NFL works. People get all worked about contracts and in a year or two, it's seen as peanuts. For example, when Cousins signed his deal, it was thought to be crazy by a lot of people. In terms of total value, it now ranks 14th. In terms of average per year and guaranteed money, it's now 7th.
Waynes isn't under contract next year. In fact, the Vikings are over the cap with having only 37 players signed (as of now). They need to make room just to fill out the roster with 16 spots not considering any other move.
Cutting Rhodes next year only creates $8.1M. That's only enough to get the Vikings out of the red and sign draft picks. Depending on how many draft picks stick, there will still be a lot of holes. Say the Vikings stick with 7 draft picks, along with cutting Rhodes, that's still 10 roster spots. Every player under contract that is cut is another that needs to be replaced.
As far as Cousins' contract, he has the 2nd highest cap hit in the NFL this year. Next year that drops to 6th. He has stated he feels it's his duty to set the QB salary bar high for future QBs. He used the Jets as leverage to get more from the Vikings. He planned his contract to be up at the end of the CBA. It's crazy to think that he's going to give the Vikings a discount. If I were to guess, I would say expect another 3 year deal in the $105M area and he's probably shooting for fully guaranteed again. He will have been playing on a fully guaranteed contract for 5 years, why give that up?
And for those that say he likes it here, that's the same thing he said in DC, but the money wasn't good enough.
No, this is different than DC. Sure, he said all the right things because he's not a stupid man, but he was treated like shit there and everyone knew it.
I have no illusions that money is unimportant to Cousins, but I do sense that what is more important to him, at age 31, is commitment. What that represents in terms of cap is anyone's guess, but I don't really see him as part of the cap puzzle anyway. That will come from the cap increase, the decision on Rhodes, Griffen, Reiff, etc. There are a few options. And it's no accident that the dead money involved in each of those players is not crippling.
Sure, they have to be replaced. Of course they do. Some you'll replace with draft picks and some you'll replace from the roster, but it's just what good teams do, every year.
I see it like this: There are roughly 1600 players in the NFL. About 150 of those players are elite. But the gap in talent between, say, player 300 and player 900 isn't really that great. Its why we can play a team like Seattle who had several players out and they still beat us. It's not like those replacement players are schmucks. Or when Reiff or Kline or Gedeon go down, it's not like Hill, Dozier and Wilson are going to prevent you from winning. Fantasy has a name for this. It's called "value over replacement." For a guy like Thielen or Diggs or Hunter, it's very high. For a guy like Reiff or Rhodes, meh, not so much.
I don't care to get into Cousins' contract too much because it's too much speculation.
Yes, roster turnover is expected. I don't think you realize how many new players are going to be on the 53 next year though. In any given year I would expect about 8-10 new players. I would bet next year is double that.
As I said, cutting Rhodes give enough cap space to get out of the red and sign draft picks. The Vikings would then only have 3 CBs on the roster. If the rumblings about Hill are true, now there are only 2.
Let's say 3 draft picks replace Rhodes, Joseph and Reiff. The Vikings would have about $24M and still a lot of roster spots to fill. Say 8 draft picks/UDFA stick, there's 11 slots left. Want to sign Waynes or Alexander because there are only 4 young CBs (including Hill and the new rookie to replace Rhodes)? That's going to cost about a quarter of that space and they like to have some left over for in season moves. Who is playing next to Smith? Kearse, Sendejo and Harris don't have contracts. The DBs are the biggest area of concern. The WRs behind Diggs and Thielen under contract are... Johnson. LBs should be mostly set though.
Like I said, there is going to be a lot of turnover next year.
Then you have Cook and Elf on their last year. Sure, you can just let Elf play out his last year, but if I'm Cook, I'm not risking that last year without a contract extension.
Griffen will probably have to be gone. There may be 8-10 new starters next year. It's kinda crazy.
i started playing with numbers the other day and cleared quite a bit of space, but in order to get the most out of the cuts that many are proposing we would have to make them June 1st cuts and that doesnt give us the cap space to use to go after the better pool of free agents... about all that money would help with is signing rookies and some veteran depth from the rest of the post June first cuts.
I also dont expect them to cut guys like Rudy who are having a solid year, I expect another renegotiate so we wont see those full cap savings as some want to pencil in, but that is one less hole to fill as well.
seriously though, head over that "over the cap" site and play with the Vikings cap for next year. its not nearly as peachy as some want to believe nor not as healthy as were are told the previous year.... its always wait until next year and then we go shopping.... and then next year its cap crunch once again.
man I know Reiff is a very Average and aging LT but I still remember the horrors of Brad Badger and Hill as our starters at that position. Without a viable draft pick or FA signing at LT I would see if we can get another year out of Reiff.
Quote: @"PSBLAKE" said:
man I know Reiff is a very Average and aging LT but I still remember the horrors of Brad Badger and Hill as our starters at that position. Without a viable draft pick or FA signing at LT I would see if we can get another year out of Reiff.
i certainly wouldn't be in a rush to replace him unless we have a proven alternative. And I dont think the plan should be to move O'Neill over there unless they get a live audition of him over there this season against real NFL talent in live action.
Reiff wont be cut till after the 2020 season. It makes little to no sense to do so based on dead cap and what it would rake to replace him.
We’re looking at Rhoades, Griffen and Joseph at either resructures or cuts but even then we can ditch them till June 1.
2020 Cap Hit Dead Cap
Griff 13.9 800K This is the most likely candidate for release
Reiff 13.2 4.4M
X 12.9 4.8
Linval 12.95 2.4
Rudy 8.8 5.8
Vikings have 36 players under contract for 2020 at $202M.
Quote: @"dadevike" said:
2020 Cap Hit Dead Cap
Griff 13.9 800K This is the most likely candidate for release
Reiff 13.2 4.4M
X 12.9 4.8
Linval 12.95 2.4
Rudy 8.8 5.8
Vikings have 36 players under contract for 2020 at $202M.
Thanks for the breakdown. Interesting that $202M is right at the top range of what some believe the cap will be.
I'd say Griff, X and Linval are good candidates. Not sure what that would give us, given the complexity of their contracts, but their cap hits add up to $40M. You replace Griffen with Weatherly or Odenigbo; Rhodes with Hughes; Linval with Watts or JJ. Downgrades all, but nothing too severe.
Definitely resign Harris and Alexander. I'd let Waynes test the market and if he doesn't get "silly" money, he might be one to bring back and talk to (ala Barr). Be tough losing both our starting corners. If we did, then CB probably has to be the 1st pick in the draft. Probably add a mid-priced corner via free agency, too. Interesting how that "cRaZy" corner pick two years ago looks awfully insightful now.
I'd plan on keeping Reiff until we see what happens in the draft and free agency (and whatever the team thinks of Hill and Udoh). Reiff can be a flex piece if we need to save more money late in the offseason. But here's an interesting thing: when Reiff went out against Philly, Hill came in, gave up zero pressures and scored the 2nd highest PFF pass pro grade of any lineman on the Vikings this year. I've heard some say that, like Reiff, he's just a much better left tackle than right. So Reiff to Hill is not necessarily a downgrade in performance but should be a significant decrease in salary.
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