Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Man, just when the offense starts to roll too- the D starts to swirl the other way...
I mentioned in another thread, Zimsu is going to have to take this off-season and really evaluate scheme, players and coaches...Including whether his role in the D needs to evolve in coming seasons??
Like I've said, watching this team is like playing Whack-a-mole. But my goodness, SO much would be different with one simple change: Rhodes playing like he did two years ago. At 29, age really should not be a factor there.
This whole defense is built around the notion of having a shut down corner on one side. With that no longer the case, it all falls apart. Everything. So do you fix the corner and keep the scheme? Shut down corners are not easy to find. Or change the defense to allow for lesser corners? Didn't we go to a cover-two in Seattle? That says a lot.
I would say a shut-down corner and 3t that can disrupt up the middle...
I think we also need a stout NT...
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
I think we also need a stout NT...
This, we arent doing a for shit job stopping the run and that is NT duty, he has to hold the line on a running double team and he needs to collapse the pocket in pass rush and LJ is doing neither, when he cant hold the line against the run, the LBs get washed out more easily and that forces us to bring the safeties down to help stop the run and that leaves our corners on islands far to often. Safeties are called safeties and not linebackers for a reason, CB is a damn tough position to play and especially in Zims defense where he expects them to play contain on the outside on run plays, the Safeties are there in case those corners need a hand and when Zim is constantly pulling them down for run support or to actually put pressure on the QB (line and LB job) then that puts a lot more pressure on our exposed corners. fix the interior DL and see all aspects of our D improve drastically.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Man, just when the offense starts to roll too- the D starts to swirl the other way...
I mentioned in another thread, Zimsu is going to have to take this off-season and really evaluate scheme, players and coaches...Including whether his role in the D needs to evolve in coming seasons??
Like I've said, watching this team is like playing Whack-a-mole. But my goodness, SO much would be different with one simple change: Rhodes playing like he did two years ago. At 29, age really should not be a factor there.
This whole defense is built around the notion of having a shut down corner on one side. With that no longer the case, it all falls apart. Everything. So do you fix the corner and keep the scheme? Shut down corners are not easy to find. Or change the defense to allow for lesser corners? Didn't we go to a cover-two in Seattle? That says a lot.
IMO the hamstring injuries are what we are seeing with Rhodes. I have mentioned this before, but you lose a lot of explosion and quick twitch response with a hammy injury, the top end speed might still be there but that ability to plant and explode out of the cut is where he is getting torched. once they get him to stop his feet its over for him anymore.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
I think we also need a stout NT...
This, we arent doing a for shit job stopping the run and that is NT duty, he has to hold the line on a running double team and he needs to collapse the pocket in pass rush and LJ is doing neither, when he cant hold the line against the run, the LBs get washed out more easily and that forces us to bring the safeties down to help stop the run and that leaves our corners on islands far to often. Safeties are called safeties and not linebackers for a reason, CB is a damn tough position to play and especially in Zims defense where he expects them to play contain on the outside on run plays, the Safeties are there in case those corners need a hand and when Zim is constantly pulling them down for run support or to actually put pressure on the QB (line and LB job) then that puts a lot more pressure on our exposed corners. fix the interior DL and see all aspects of our D improve drastically.
We certainly should start looking for Linval's replacement. But I would say that our problem is that we can't seem to stop both the pass and the run. We have to choose one.
Against Dallas, for example, our focus was stopping Elliott and we did. 20 carries for 47 yards. Best OL in football and a damn good back. Problem was, that freed up things downfield and Dak took advantage. We did the opposite against Seattle and got gashed by Carson and Penny.
It will be interesting to see what Zimmer does against the Lions. No Wilson, no Dak, no Zeke, Carson or Penny, or anyone even close to them in terms of talent. So do you focus on Bo Scarbrough and force the 3rd string rookie to beat you? You would think so. But he's got some good weapons downfield in Golladay and Jones who've proven they can beat our corners. So do you keep the safeties back and hope that your front seven can contain the back? I think it's gotta be the latter.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
I think we also need a stout NT...
This, we arent doing a for shit job stopping the run and that is NT duty, he has to hold the line on a running double team and he needs to collapse the pocket in pass rush and LJ is doing neither, when he cant hold the line against the run, the LBs get washed out more easily and that forces us to bring the safeties down to help stop the run and that leaves our corners on islands far to often. Safeties are called safeties and not linebackers for a reason, CB is a damn tough position to play and especially in Zims defense where he expects them to play contain on the outside on run plays, the Safeties are there in case those corners need a hand and when Zim is constantly pulling them down for run support or to actually put pressure on the QB (line and LB job) then that puts a lot more pressure on our exposed corners. fix the interior DL and see all aspects of our D improve drastically.
We certainly should start looking for Linval's replacement. But I would say that our problem is that we can't seem to stop both the pass and the run. We have to choose one.
Against Dallas, for example, our focus was stopping Elliott and we did. 20 carries for 47 yards. Best OL in football and a damn good back. Problem was, that freed up things downfield and Dak took advantage. We did the opposite against Seattle and got gashed by Carson and Penny.
It will be interesting to see what Zimmer does against the Lions. No Wilson, no Dak, no Zeke, Carson or Penny, or anyone even close to them in terms of talent. So do you focus on Bo Scarbrough and force the 3rd string rookie to beat you? You would think so. But he's got some good weapons downfield in Golladay and Jones who've proven they can beat our corners. So do you keep the safeties back and hope that your front seven can contain the back? I think it's gotta be the latter.
you know as well as I do (we preach it every year) wins and losses are determined more at the LOS than at the skill positions. IMO NT is right now our biggest need on D, LJ either needs to step it up big time because we are having to scheme around our DT deficiencies. I think at home against Detroit... we have to take away the run and force the kid QB to show that he can handle crowd noise and pressure. Run blitz with the LBs, have the DEs play contain and hope like hell that nothing slips through because I want the safeties covering the CBs asses. we need to be able to get pressure and contain the run with our front 6. (assuming we play a lot of nickle)
He's going straight vanilla Zone Defense, Maroon. The only specific game plans we've seen from Mike this year were Dallas and Seattle. He changed things up after the 1st Quarter in GB but started the game vanilla so he could see what Fleur-de-lis was doing with his new Offense.
Bears bring in a backup QB, Mike plays vanilla. KC has a backup QB, Mike plays vanilla. Broncos have a backup QB (who's since been benched) Mike plays vanilla.
I truly believe that he doesn't feel the need to do anything 'special' against most QBs. And if he does try something like a lot of blitzing and it doesn't get home even a backup QB can find the open guy and get a chunk play that gives him some confidence.
This rationale makes sense. Seattle has been playing primarily Cover 3 forever. They don't do a lot of opponent-specific planning and they don't blitz a lot.
The problem is that neither Seattle nor Minnesota have the talent they used to. Seattle has lost a lot of players and the ones still there like Wagner and Wright are old. The Vikings still have all their players but many of them are simply not playing like their old selves.
So vanilla makes sense in a way, but all of those backup QBs have still been able to get chunk plays anyway cuz the pass rush isn't there and neither is the coverage.
Maroon, I have to disagree with you slightly about your shutdown Corner angle. Mike had good, but never great CBs in Cincinnati. What he did have was 4 D-Linemen capable of rushing the passer plus depth to rotate. When he got here I think Rhodes and Harry being elite allowed him to do more things scheme-wise that he can't with either of them now and that's hurting him too.
It really starts in the interior. Getting nothing from Joseph and Stephan vs. Peko and Atkins in Cincinnati . Griff and Hunter are still getting pressures but unless it's a sack the QB can just step up in the pocket to avoid it. And they're trying so hard to get that sack they're abandoning their gap discipline and leaving wide open lanes for QB scrambles.
If this team had a legit 3T it would look a lot better.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
I think we also need a stout NT...
This, we arent doing a for shit job stopping the run and that is NT duty, he has to hold the line on a running double team and he needs to collapse the pocket in pass rush and LJ is doing neither, when he cant hold the line against the run, the LBs get washed out more easily and that forces us to bring the safeties down to help stop the run and that leaves our corners on islands far to often. Safeties are called safeties and not linebackers for a reason, CB is a damn tough position to play and especially in Zims defense where he expects them to play contain on the outside on run plays, the Safeties are there in case those corners need a hand and when Zim is constantly pulling them down for run support or to actually put pressure on the QB (line and LB job) then that puts a lot more pressure on our exposed corners. fix the interior DL and see all aspects of our D improve drastically.
We certainly should start looking for Linval's replacement. But I would say that our problem is that we can't seem to stop both the pass and the run. We have to choose one.
Against Dallas, for example, our focus was stopping Elliott and we did. 20 carries for 47 yards. Best OL in football and a damn good back. Problem was, that freed up things downfield and Dak took advantage. We did the opposite against Seattle and got gashed by Carson and Penny.
It will be interesting to see what Zimmer does against the Lions. No Wilson, no Dak, no Zeke, Carson or Penny, or anyone even close to them in terms of talent. So do you focus on Bo Scarbrough and force the 3rd string rookie to beat you? You would think so. But he's got some good weapons downfield in Golladay and Jones who've proven they can beat our corners. So do you keep the safeties back and hope that your front seven can contain the back? I think it's gotta be the latter.
you know as well as I do (we preach it every year) wins and losses are determined more at the LOS than at the skill positions. IMO NT is right now our biggest need on D, LJ either needs to step it up big time because we are having to scheme around our DT deficiencies. I think at home against Detroit... we have to take away the run and force the kid QB to show that he can handle crowd noise and pressure. Run blitz with the LBs, have the DEs play contain and hope like hell that nothing slips through because I want the safeties covering the CBs asses. we need to be able to get pressure and contain the run with our front 6. (assuming we play a lot of nickle)
I'm much more afraid of Galladay and Jones than I am of Scarbrough. What's more, Seattle didn't really start killing us with the run until they got the lead via a blown coverage, turnover and fake punt. No, I put the safeties back and focus on their two wides. With a 3rd string QB "playing in his first road game" [drink] I like our chances of getting sacks and turnovers without blitzing. Big plays. Give B-Scar his 70 yards and a TD. They won't win with him. But they can win if Kenny and Marvin get free. JMO. JMF'NO.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
I think we also need a stout NT...
This, we arent doing a for shit job stopping the run and that is NT duty, he has to hold the line on a running double team and he needs to collapse the pocket in pass rush and LJ is doing neither, when he cant hold the line against the run, the LBs get washed out more easily and that forces us to bring the safeties down to help stop the run and that leaves our corners on islands far to often. Safeties are called safeties and not linebackers for a reason, CB is a damn tough position to play and especially in Zims defense where he expects them to play contain on the outside on run plays, the Safeties are there in case those corners need a hand and when Zim is constantly pulling them down for run support or to actually put pressure on the QB (line and LB job) then that puts a lot more pressure on our exposed corners. fix the interior DL and see all aspects of our D improve drastically.
We certainly should start looking for Linval's replacement. But I would say that our problem is that we can't seem to stop both the pass and the run. We have to choose one.
Against Dallas, for example, our focus was stopping Elliott and we did. 20 carries for 47 yards. Best OL in football and a damn good back. Problem was, that freed up things downfield and Dak took advantage. We did the opposite against Seattle and got gashed by Carson and Penny.
It will be interesting to see what Zimmer does against the Lions. No Wilson, no Dak, no Zeke, Carson or Penny, or anyone even close to them in terms of talent. So do you focus on Bo Scarbrough and force the 3rd string rookie to beat you? You would think so. But he's got some good weapons downfield in Golladay and Jones who've proven they can beat our corners. So do you keep the safeties back and hope that your front seven can contain the back? I think it's gotta be the latter.
you know as well as I do (we preach it every year) wins and losses are determined more at the LOS than at the skill positions. IMO NT is right now our biggest need on D, LJ either needs to step it up big time because we are having to scheme around our DT deficiencies. I think at home against Detroit... we have to take away the run and force the kid QB to show that he can handle crowd noise and pressure. Run blitz with the LBs, have the DEs play contain and hope like hell that nothing slips through because I want the safeties covering the CBs asses. we need to be able to get pressure and contain the run with our front 6. (assuming we play a lot of nickle)
I'm much more afraid of Galladay and Jones than I am of Scarbrough. What's more, Seattle didn't really start killing us with the run until they got the lead via a blown coverage, turnover and fake punt. No, I put the safeties back and focus on their two wides. With a 3rd string QB "playing in his first road game" [drink] I like our chances of getting sacks and turnovers without blitzing. Big plays. Give B-Scar his 70 yards and a TD. They won't win with him. But they can win if Kenny and Marvin get free. JMO. JMF'NO.
teams blitz all the time without using their safeties. I am saying run blitz with the LBs and leave the safeties high to put more pressure on the QB to deliver perfect throws in what should be a loud stadium and if we are sending a LB every time then there should be somebody getting in the kids face. with Hockenson on IR, they will be doing a few things different, but we should still be able to dictate what they do with our defense quite a bit.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
Maroon, I have to disagree with you slightly about your shutdown Corner angle. Mike had good, but never great CBs in Cincinnati. What he did have was 4 D-Linemen capable of rushing the passer plus depth to rotate. When he got here I think Rhodes and Harry being elite allowed him to do more things scheme-wise that he can't with either of them now and that's hurting him too.
I agree with your point about vanilla. I see this game a lot like the Denver game in fact. I do think that's what he'll do. It's just not what *I* would do. And his voice mailbox is full. Damn Parcells.
Like most coaches, Zimmer does what his talent on defense dictates. Moving to Minnesota and finding an emerging talent like Rhodes allowed him to shape the defense into what we've seen the last few years. Shutdown corner, AA blitzes, safeties wreaking havoc at the line of scrimmage, top 5 defense three years in a row.
The bold sentence is exactly what I've been saying. If you shape a defense around a strength that goes away, you're in big trouble. It forces you to make some crazy changes.
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