Quote: @ArizonaViking said:
Another thing to think about is, we don't really know how many players we approached with an offer. We only hear about the ones that agree to sign. Of course, with our salary cap situation, we can't really compete with other teams money-wise.
why not? I have been told repeatedly that the cap is a myth, why would KAM allow a mythical item keep him from bringing in all the best talent to the Vikings, regardless of mythical costs?
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ ArizonaViking said:
Another thing to think about is, we don't really know how many players we approached with an offer. We only hear about the ones that agree to sign. Of course, with our salary cap situation, we can't really compete with other teams money-wise.
why not? I have been told repeatedly that the cap is a myth, why would KAM allow a mythical item keep him from bringing in all the best talent to the Vikings, regardless of mythical costs?
That's sarcasm, right? 
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
More fans bitching about this signing vs applauding the upside of the Davenport acquisition...
Bitches gonna bitch. We aren't even 24 hours in and we've already signed two starters. That's not typical for the Vikings.
Oliver isn't a starter. He's a role player who will get some snaps when we run 12 personnel.
I like the Davenport signing. It's ok for fans to express some disappointment about our off-season to date. Doesn't really feel like we have a plan at this point.
We cut half our old (30+) high cap hit vets (Thielen and Kendricks) and are still over the cap a day before FA officially starts. We have two others that we don't know what we're doing with (will Harry restructure and is Z gonna get released now)...
Be nice to get some clarity on the direction we're going, but it sure seems like we're straddling the "retooling" fence for the 3rd year in a row.
I'm not sure why fans should expect to know the plan of our GM and other decision makers. But it would be incredibly cynical to think they don't have one. Do you really think they're just signing, releasing and restructuring random players without a vision for the future? Seriously?
I think if we're starting to get a glimpse of the plan, it's that we're avoiding money in 2024 and trying to improve our run game. Wouldn't you agree?
Yes, it's OK to be disappointed, Wet. It's also OK to acknowledge we're far from finished.
I'm disappointed we brought Hicks back, but I can sorta understand the thinking there. Worst case, he's a league average starter for us. Best case, he's cheap, experienced depth. I'm also pleased we didn't chase Peterson's and Tomlinson's money. I think we were wise not to.
I'm also happy that in less than 24 hours we've rendered Z's threat irrelevant and improved our run game by signing the 2nd best run blocking tight end in football last year. You really want to argue about whether Oliver is a starter or not? He will be in 12 personnel. But you're right, he won't be a starter in 11. That better?
Well, on Oliver... Just trying to keep things factual, Maroon. ;-)
As far as the rest, no I don't expect to know the plan of our GM. But I'd hope as a fan we'd get some indication of it by the moves we make (or don't make).
Quote: @ArizonaViking said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ ArizonaViking said:
Another thing to think about is, we don't really know how many players we approached with an offer. We only hear about the ones that agree to sign. Of course, with our salary cap situation, we can't really compete with other teams money-wise.
why not? I have been told repeatedly that the cap is a myth, why would KAM allow a mythical item keep him from bringing in all the best talent to the Vikings, regardless of mythical costs?
That's sarcasm, right?
laid on thick. 
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
More fans bitching about this signing vs applauding the upside of the Davenport acquisition...
hard to be overly excited for his signing when saints fans are reportedly happy he is gone. sounds like he was kind of a disappointment for them. also just a one year rental deal, so its just a player at that point, not something you really expect to be a big part of the future or a new face of the defense kind of thing at this point.
Glass 1/2 full or glass 1/2 empty???
The glass is more than adequate to hold the volume you have, you can have more if you want and you don't have to worry about spilling what you already have.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
On first glance you don't think TE is a need, but this generally makes them more multiple on offense. 12-personnel is what gets brought up, but its the ability to force teams out of their nickel defense that's more compelling.
Between Oliver & Hock you get a top 3 receiving and blocking TE committee.
In the pass game out of 12 you also get a high-end blocking TE who can help with any matchup on the outside. The contract won't be nearly as expensive as it looks either. Nothing to pop bottles over, but its a forward thinking move.
But TE wasn't a need and Oliver has never even amassed 150 yards receiving, not in a game, but for an entire season. So to me there is still a lot to be proven from him as a consistent receiving threat and we just ponied up a nice contract and spent money that should have been spent on the defensive side of the football. Like I said if they really wanted a second TE so bad why not look at the draft where we could have taken advantage of a deep crop and had them on a rookie contract? There is just not much that this front office does that makes a whole lot of sense and this is just the latest example.
He's not a receiving TE, his role will be to be a 6th offensive lineman who has enough ability as a pass catcher to allow the Vikings to dictate their matchups on the offensive side of the ball. Could you have drafted a TE? Sure. But would he be a top 2-3 in-line blocked in the NFL? Probably not. The Vikings targeted and paid for a unique skillset rather than a well rounded player. You don't always need a single well rounded player to fill every role.
It's just strange money allocation. There are apparently escalators in his deal that could raise the total value to 24 million with 11 million guaranteed and we still don't have Hockenson signed to his extension yet. Hope it works out. I find myself saying that a lot with this front office.
Escalators like TDs, catches and yards that won't be met? Escalators are window dressings that don't mean much.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
On first glance you don't think TE is a need, but this generally makes them more multiple on offense. 12-personnel is what gets brought up, but its the ability to force teams out of their nickel defense that's more compelling.
Between Oliver & Hock you get a top 3 receiving and blocking TE committee.
In the pass game out of 12 you also get a high-end blocking TE who can help with any matchup on the outside. The contract won't be nearly as expensive as it looks either. Nothing to pop bottles over, but its a forward thinking move.
But TE wasn't a need and Oliver has never even amassed 150 yards receiving, not in a game, but for an entire season. So to me there is still a lot to be proven from him as a consistent receiving threat and we just ponied up a nice contract and spent money that should have been spent on the defensive side of the football. Like I said if they really wanted a second TE so bad why not look at the draft where we could have taken advantage of a deep crop and had them on a rookie contract? There is just not much that this front office does that makes a whole lot of sense and this is just the latest example.
He's not a receiving TE, his role will be to be a 6th offensive lineman who has enough ability as a pass catcher to allow the Vikings to dictate their matchups on the offensive side of the ball. Could you have drafted a TE? Sure. But would he be a top 2-3 in-line blocked in the NFL? Probably not. The Vikings targeted and paid for a unique skillset rather than a well rounded player. You don't always need a single well rounded player to fill every role.
It's just strange money allocation. There are apparently escalators in his deal that could raise the total value to 24 million with 11 million guaranteed and we still don't have Hockenson signed to his extension yet. Hope it works out. I find myself saying that a lot with this front office.
Escalators like TDs, catches and yards that won't be met? Escalators are window dressings that don't mean much.
interesting read here on Escalator and Incentives and how the NFL uses them
https://overthecap.com/nfl-contracts-the...-escalator
Quote: @greediron said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
On first glance you don't think TE is a need, but this generally makes them more multiple on offense. 12-personnel is what gets brought up, but its the ability to force teams out of their nickel defense that's more compelling.
Between Oliver & Hock you get a top 3 receiving and blocking TE committee.
In the pass game out of 12 you also get a high-end blocking TE who can help with any matchup on the outside. The contract won't be nearly as expensive as it looks either. Nothing to pop bottles over, but its a forward thinking move.
But TE wasn't a need and Oliver has never even amassed 150 yards receiving, not in a game, but for an entire season. So to me there is still a lot to be proven from him as a consistent receiving threat and we just ponied up a nice contract and spent money that should have been spent on the defensive side of the football. Like I said if they really wanted a second TE so bad why not look at the draft where we could have taken advantage of a deep crop and had them on a rookie contract? There is just not much that this front office does that makes a whole lot of sense and this is just the latest example.
He's not a receiving TE, his role will be to be a 6th offensive lineman who has enough ability as a pass catcher to allow the Vikings to dictate their matchups on the offensive side of the ball. Could you have drafted a TE? Sure. But would he be a top 2-3 in-line blocked in the NFL? Probably not. The Vikings targeted and paid for a unique skillset rather than a well rounded player. You don't always need a single well rounded player to fill every role.
It's just strange money allocation. There are apparently escalators in his deal that could raise the total value to 24 million with 11 million guaranteed and we still don't have Hockenson signed to his extension yet. Hope it works out. I find myself saying that a lot with this front office.
Escalators like TDs, catches and yards that won't be met? Escalators are window dressings that don't mean much.
unless those "escalators" are actually incentives and are deemed "likely to be earned" and then they would count against the current year cap and if unmet roll into the next years cap.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
On first glance you don't think TE is a need, but this generally makes them more multiple on offense. 12-personnel is what gets brought up, but its the ability to force teams out of their nickel defense that's more compelling.
Between Oliver & Hock you get a top 3 receiving and blocking TE committee.
In the pass game out of 12 you also get a high-end blocking TE who can help with any matchup on the outside. The contract won't be nearly as expensive as it looks either. Nothing to pop bottles over, but its a forward thinking move.
But TE wasn't a need and Oliver has never even amassed 150 yards receiving, not in a game, but for an entire season. So to me there is still a lot to be proven from him as a consistent receiving threat and we just ponied up a nice contract and spent money that should have been spent on the defensive side of the football. Like I said if they really wanted a second TE so bad why not look at the draft where we could have taken advantage of a deep crop and had them on a rookie contract? There is just not much that this front office does that makes a whole lot of sense and this is just the latest example.
He's not a receiving TE, his role will be to be a 6th offensive lineman who has enough ability as a pass catcher to allow the Vikings to dictate their matchups on the offensive side of the ball. Could you have drafted a TE? Sure. But would he be a top 2-3 in-line blocked in the NFL? Probably not. The Vikings targeted and paid for a unique skillset rather than a well rounded player. You don't always need a single well rounded player to fill every role.
It's just strange money allocation. There are apparently escalators in his deal that could raise the total value to 24 million with 11 million guaranteed and we still don't have Hockenson signed to his extension yet. Hope it works out. I find myself saying that a lot with this front office.
Escalators like TDs, catches and yards that won't be met? Escalators are window dressings that don't mean much.
unless those "escalators" are actually incentives and are deemed "likely to be earned" and then they would count against the current year cap and if unmet roll into the next years cap.
Yes, but the point is, they aren't locked in numbers. If the player performs, they should benefit because the team benefits. But they are usually salary manipulations that give the agent a "higher" number while protecting the team.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
On first glance you don't think TE is a need, but this generally makes them more multiple on offense. 12-personnel is what gets brought up, but its the ability to force teams out of their nickel defense that's more compelling.
Between Oliver & Hock you get a top 3 receiving and blocking TE committee.
In the pass game out of 12 you also get a high-end blocking TE who can help with any matchup on the outside. The contract won't be nearly as expensive as it looks either. Nothing to pop bottles over, but its a forward thinking move.
But TE wasn't a need and Oliver has never even amassed 150 yards receiving, not in a game, but for an entire season. So to me there is still a lot to be proven from him as a consistent receiving threat and we just ponied up a nice contract and spent money that should have been spent on the defensive side of the football. Like I said if they really wanted a second TE so bad why not look at the draft where we could have taken advantage of a deep crop and had them on a rookie contract? There is just not much that this front office does that makes a whole lot of sense and this is just the latest example.
He's not a receiving TE, his role will be to be a 6th offensive lineman who has enough ability as a pass catcher to allow the Vikings to dictate their matchups on the offensive side of the ball. Could you have drafted a TE? Sure. But would he be a top 2-3 in-line blocked in the NFL? Probably not. The Vikings targeted and paid for a unique skillset rather than a well rounded player. You don't always need a single well rounded player to fill every role.
It's just strange money allocation. There are apparently escalators in his deal that could raise the total value to 24 million with 11 million guaranteed and we still don't have Hockenson signed to his extension yet. Hope it works out. I find myself saying that a lot with this front office.
Escalators like TDs, catches and yards that won't be met? Escalators are window dressings that don't mean much.
unless those "escalators" are actually incentives and are deemed "likely to be earned" and then they would count against the current year cap and if unmet roll into the next years cap.
Yes, but the point is, they aren't locked in numbers. If the player performs, they should benefit because the team benefits. But they are usually salary manipulations that give the agent a "higher" number while protecting the team.
I love the use of incentives, personally I think they are under used, but depending on the incentive, they may mean something now, something later, or something never. you can kind of screw youself though. if you have an unlikely to earned incentive, that actually does get met, and they have the same incentive for the following year, it is then likely to be earned, so that players incentive will hit double in the same year. once for the previous season and then for the coming season. so yes they can be used to fluff a contract, but they do have real cap consequences... if they are "incentives", "escalators" are objective and are complete window dressing and as such an agent would be a fool to accept that terminology.
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