Too much volume in offensive playbook

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@FSUVike said:

@matt4787 said:

@Vikergirl said:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25326...atform=amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is something I agree with completely. Keep it simple stupid. Anyone who watches the Rams offense at work should understand simplicity is king because it allows for more consistant execution. Also a great thing about running tons of plays out of the same formation is the fact you give the D the same look presnap which doesn't allow them to really know what you are going to do if you have 4 or 5 plays that are ran with great execution. But I hope Zimmer realizes that if you run the ball for no gain or a loss of yards on first down perhaps you shouldn't be running it as much or at all even. I always remember that MNF game in 2006 against the Patriots and they essentially didn't run the ball at all. You can win by not running the damn football. Short passes can control the clock too.

The Rams can run a dozen different plays out of 11 Personnel because the Defense has to play run and pass. If Gurley wasn't picking up 4 yards per carry the Defenders could key more on route runners and guys in motion.

Against Minnesota you can play pass on every down and stop the rush on the way to the QB. Just like in the AP days.

Teams running all this effective misdirection are successful because of the threat of the run. Same with multiple plays out of 1 formation. 

The Vikings can't run the ball with any consistency because the Line sucks. With such an important facet shut down how can we really judge D-Flip's playcalling? 

Way too much pressure on KC too...We aren't going to see the best without balance and that balance will elude the Vikings this year because of that OL. Hell, it aint rocket science - old adages still apply. 

[Guest]

The OL is the most important part of an offensive. Time can make a below average QB look more than serviceable or average QB look good. The OL can also make a RB or WR look far better than they are. A good OL will make the O Coordinator look like a genius. We don't have a good OL (not exactly Breaking News) and yet our QB looks ok and our WRs (at least two of them) look great. Can you imagine what a good OL would do for this team? D-Flip would be in HC discussions around playoff time. 

[Guest]

@matt4787 said:

@suncoastvike said:
Did we get sold on a idea that Flip was going to be young and innovative like Doug?  Well to do that he might have to get a bit more assertive. I see a offense that reflects Zimmer not Pederson. I seen Pat do more with Case then Flip with Kirk. I keep coming to the notion that Pat had more free reign then Flip. Pat expanded the playbook as the year went on. Zimmer says he wants to shrink it. Who runs this offense? Pat had a resume of being both a OC and former HC. Flip might not have the same free reign Mike gave Pat. This offense seems to reflect Mike's personality. Which was why I never wanted Mike to have anything to do with the offense.

I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

Here is the problem with both of your arguments and I admit I was completely shocked when I looked at this stat today. The Vikings lead the league in Passing Play Percentage at 67.34%!!! Maybe that is why Zim made the comment we should stick with the run more. Clearly we are passing out of necessity as the run game is ineffective, but our passing game seems to have stalled due to a lack of creativity, and teams now have game tape and tendencies of what Flip's Playcalling and Game Plans look like. Outside of Diggs and Thielen, who else is involved in the passing game? I agree that you can win with a minimal running attack, but we need to diversify the passing attack and use it to set up the running game. Shurmur did way more misdirection and called multiple plays out of the same formations to confuse the defense. We have not seen that this year with Flip's schemes. If we are going to continue to pass this much, then let's make it challenging for the defense with using our Tight Ends in the passing game. 4 WR Sets on first down that don't include Treadwell. Hurry up offense to limit substitutions when you want to push the pace, line up Cook at WR and motion him all over the field. That's the kind of creativity I was expecting to see in the Passing Game from Flip and none of that has materialized. To me, if you are going to pass this much, then the quality and effectiveness of the passing game is the difference between winning and losing every week and we saw that first hand last week against the Bears with a terrible performance by the QB, the offensive coordinator, and the continued failures of the OLine. 

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@FSUVike said:

@matt4787 said:

@Vikergirl said:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25326...atform=amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is something I agree with completely. Keep it simple stupid. Anyone who watches the Rams offense at work should understand simplicity is king because it allows for more consistant execution. Also a great thing about running tons of plays out of the same formation is the fact you give the D the same look presnap which doesn't allow them to really know what you are going to do if you have 4 or 5 plays that are ran with great execution. But I hope Zimmer realizes that if you run the ball for no gain or a loss of yards on first down perhaps you shouldn't be running it as much or at all even. I always remember that MNF game in 2006 against the Patriots and they essentially didn't run the ball at all. You can win by not running the damn football. Short passes can control the clock too.

The Rams can run a dozen different plays out of 11 Personnel because the Defense has to play run and pass. If Gurley wasn't picking up 4 yards per carry the Defenders could key more on route runners and guys in motion.

Against Minnesota you can play pass on every down and stop the rush on the way to the QB. Just like in the AP days.

Teams running all this effective misdirection are successful because of the threat of the run. Same with multiple plays out of 1 formation. 

The Vikings can't run the ball with any consistency because the Line sucks. With such an important facet shut down how can we really judge D-Flip's playcalling? 

They are averaging 4 yards a carry.
Oak is 16th at 4.3 per attempt
not much different, every 3rd attempt Oak out gained Mn by 1 whole yard more.
Mn is averaging 21 attempts per game, if Oak did the same they would out rush MN by 7 yards per game.
Last year MN averaged 3.9 per attempt.

The problem is playing catch up after the 1st quarter, and having to go pass happy.

[Guest]

@Wetlander said:

@matt4787 said:


I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

Forcing Flip to run more...???
Does the Vikings offense this season look like a Zimmer offense?  I would say absolutely not.  Zimmer's offensive philosophy is to establish the run, control the clock, and take care of the football (limit turnovers).  We've been extremely pass heavy in too many of our games and it hasn't resulted in many wins. 
Look at our losses...
Bills - 4 rushing attempts by our RBs and 55 passes...  we scored 6 points and lost in embarrassing fashion.
Rams - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and Cousins was our leading rusher... 50 passing attempts.
Saints - 19 rushing attempts and 41 pass attempts.  Turnovers doomed us in this game, but we actually had good balance in the first half and should have went into halftime with a 16-10 or 20-10 lead if Thielen doesn't fumble deep inside the red zone.  We went pass heavy in the 2nd half and lost.
Bears - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and 46 pass attempts.  Put up 20 points.
In all our losses (and the Packers tie), we've failed to hit 20 rushing attempts...


Now check out our wins...
49ers - 28 rushes (I've excluded Kirks rushing attempts in all these) to 36 pass attempts.  Good balance. Won by 8.
Eagles - 18 rushes to 37 pass attempts.  Close win by 2.
Cardinals - 28 rushes to 34 pass attempts.  Good balance again.  Won by 10.
Jets - 22 rushes and 40 pass attempts.  We stayed committed to the run and won by 20.
Lions - 21 rushes and 22 pass attempts.  Good balance.  Won by 15.
If you want a quick summary, we average 48 pass attempts and 13 rushing attempts in our losses (and tie).  That's a 78/22 passing to rushing split.  In our wins, we average 34 pass attempts and 23.4 rushing attempts.  That's a 59/41 passing to rushing split.  Much more balanced, but still no where close to the 54% and 51% splits we had in 2017 (13-3) and 2015 (11-5).
If anything, I'd say this offense has more Flip's fingerprints all over it than Mike Zimmer...  and it's pretty evident when we throw a lot, we end up losing more often than we win.
You need to have a balanced offense to win in the NFL.  The Rams, Saints, and Chiefs all have prolific passing games, but guess what...  they are ranked 2nd, 6th, and 8th in rushing this season.
I actually hope Zimmer tells Flip we need to run more and they figure out how to establish an effective rushing attack.  Whether that means changing personnel, formations, etc...  they need to get an effective running game going to take pressure off of Cousins and get this offense to the next level.

We have a winner! This.

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@holmanjp said:

@FSUVike said:

@matt4787 said:

@Vikergirl said:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25326...atform=amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is something I agree with completely. Keep it simple stupid. Anyone who watches the Rams offense at work should understand simplicity is king because it allows for more consistant execution. Also a great thing about running tons of plays out of the same formation is the fact you give the D the same look presnap which doesn't allow them to really know what you are going to do if you have 4 or 5 plays that are ran with great execution. But I hope Zimmer realizes that if you run the ball for no gain or a loss of yards on first down perhaps you shouldn't be running it as much or at all even. I always remember that MNF game in 2006 against the Patriots and they essentially didn't run the ball at all. You can win by not running the damn football. Short passes can control the clock too.

The Rams can run a dozen different plays out of 11 Personnel because the Defense has to play run and pass. If Gurley wasn't picking up 4 yards per carry the Defenders could key more on route runners and guys in motion.

Against Minnesota you can play pass on every down and stop the rush on the way to the QB. Just like in the AP days.

Teams running all this effective misdirection are successful because of the threat of the run. Same with multiple plays out of 1 formation. 

The Vikings can't run the ball with any consistency because the Line sucks. With such an important facet shut down how can we really judge D-Flip's playcalling? 

They are averaging 4 yards a carry.
Oak is 16th at 4.3 per attempt
not much different, every 3rd attempt Oak out gained Mn by 1 whole yard more.
Mn is averaging 21 attempts per game, if Oak did the same they would out rush MN by 7 yards per game.
Last year MN averaged 3.9 per attempt.

The problem is playing catch up after the 1st quarter, and having to go pass happy.

Rams are 2nd in the League in rushing yards per game. Saints are 6th and KC is 8th.

Minnesota is 31st....Just saying 

[Guest]

@FSUVike said:

@holmanjp said:

@FSUVike said:

@matt4787 said:

@Vikergirl said:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25326...atform=amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is something I agree with completely. Keep it simple stupid. Anyone who watches the Rams offense at work should understand simplicity is king because it allows for more consistant execution. Also a great thing about running tons of plays out of the same formation is the fact you give the D the same look presnap which doesn't allow them to really know what you are going to do if you have 4 or 5 plays that are ran with great execution. But I hope Zimmer realizes that if you run the ball for no gain or a loss of yards on first down perhaps you shouldn't be running it as much or at all even. I always remember that MNF game in 2006 against the Patriots and they essentially didn't run the ball at all. You can win by not running the damn football. Short passes can control the clock too.

The Rams can run a dozen different plays out of 11 Personnel because the Defense has to play run and pass. If Gurley wasn't picking up 4 yards per carry the Defenders could key more on route runners and guys in motion.

Against Minnesota you can play pass on every down and stop the rush on the way to the QB. Just like in the AP days.

Teams running all this effective misdirection are successful because of the threat of the run. Same with multiple plays out of 1 formation. 

The Vikings can't run the ball with any consistency because the Line sucks. With such an important facet shut down how can we really judge D-Flip's playcalling? 

They are averaging 4 yards a carry.
Oak is 16th at 4.3 per attempt
not much different, every 3rd attempt Oak out gained Mn by 1 whole yard more.
Mn is averaging 21 attempts per game, if Oak did the same they would out rush MN by 7 yards per game.
Last year MN averaged 3.9 per attempt.

The problem is playing catch up after the 1st quarter, and having to go pass happy.

Rams are 2nd in the League in rushing yards per game. Saints are 6th and KC is 8th.

Minnesota is 31st....Just saying 

9rs,boys,browns 3rd, 4th 5th

You run the ball more times Rams 316 vs MN 211 you end up with more yards, how can that be.
If MN ran the ball 316 at their 4.0 average they would have 1,264 yards or 9th place.

If No only ran the ball 211 times at their 4.2 average they would only have 886 yards or 30th place

Then again if MN ran 31 a game like last year, they probably get some vintage AP type games.

Remember 2015 AP was the rushing leader.
Couple games everyone was so proud of.

Sun 10/25 98 yards 5.2 average
1 run 75 yards
18 other runs 1.3 average, well below 2018 MN 4.0 average

Sun 10/4 5.1 average
1 run 48 yards
15 other runs 2.2 average

Sun 11/29 7.8 average
1 run 80 yards came on last play MN was already winning 21-14

Running with a lead is different than running down by 14 at half time