Quote: @"Jor-El" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
Jor-El hit the nail on the head.
The decision to trade for Bradford put into motion the signing of Cousins. That was really a dumb trade.
Spielman got taken advantage of by Roseman really.
I have no idea why Spielman had Hill as his #2 QB if he was not ready to play him. The Patriots lost Brady in the first game in 2008 and went with Matt Cassel who had less experience than Hill. They did not panic and trade a future 1st round pick to get a dude that was now out of favor with a 2nd team.
If they play Hill and sign some other backup off the scrap heap they like lose 2 more games. I think that is a reasonable guess and that would have put them at 6-10 and drafting 9th in 2017.
They could have been in the running for Mahomes (who they brought in for a visit) and Watson. Even if they did not want one of them they could have maybe traded with the Chiefs or Texans.
The lesson to learn here is you never trade your 1st round pick unless you are getting an All Pro like Allen.
At the worst, Spielman should have at least given Hill 3 to 5 more games to see how he was doing and to try and drive that price down for Bradford. If he could have gotten Bradford for a 3rd and something else that would have been easier to understand.
That move set into motion this whole scenario.
I would refute those that say Cousins fumbles a lot. He fumbles just as much as other QBs. The problem last year was that the Vikings were very unlucky recovering those fumbles.
https://www.footballperspective.com/the-vikings-had-the-worst-fumble-luck-in-2018/
Last year Derek Carr, Dak Prescott, Jared Goff, Lamar Jackson, Case Keenum, Josh Rosen, Matt Ryan, and Russell Wilson all had more fumbles (max was 12 so not that many).
Carson Wentz, Marcus Mariota, Deshaun Watson, and Patrick Mahomes all had the same number of fumbles.
https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=M
The narrative that Cousins fumbled a lot is really false. He is about in the middle. Plus, two of the fumbles charged to Cousins were the backwards (laterals) passes they threw that went out of bounds. Very very few posters ever mention this fact.
I think the Viking should draft a QB next year no matter what they do with Cousins. I was kind of surprised they did not take one this year but I guess after Grier was gone they felt the UDFA route was the way to go.
I think RS/MZ were comfortable with Hill holding down the fort a game or 2, not a season. They had what they thought was a SB contending team too, lots of at stake.
I'll bet there were many in Eden Prairie who even thought Bradford was going to be an improvement over Bridgewater. Those were such extenuating circumstances, I applaud them for what they did, even in retrospect.
But then again, I was never a big Bridgewater fan and I felt Bradford could have been the final cog to the machine.
Yes, I believe that is true: some people in WP might have almost welcomed the opportunity to replace Bridgewater. No one will ever admit it, but I don't think Bridgewater was unanimously loved within the organization. Zimmer probably loved him as a minimize-mistakes/game-manager/handoff-to-Peterson QB, but as Peterson faded from the team's plans, I think others wanted a big strong-armed pocket passer, and thought Bradford could be the guy. By then we had Pat Shurmur here, who loved Bradford. I think the division over Bridgewater showed up in the way he left the team last year.
Like several others, I will admit I liked the move at the time. But we are still allowed to look back and say it was a mistake with long impact, and that we're disappointed our professional GM did not make a better decision.
Another aspect of that trade: we were already in cap space trouble. Yes, even though we were in the "QB on a rookie contract magic formula" that everyone in the NFL now loves, we could not afford to pay Bradford's contract ($18M in 2016), so we negotiated with the Eagles to pay $11M by improving our trade from a 2nd round pick to a 1st. So our cap space problem cost us a draft pick.
But hey, if the Vikings' salary problems are due to a "quarterback trap", why were we already in trouble in 2016 while only paying Bridgewater and Hill about $3M combined? Partly due to some high offensive contracts (Kalil, Peterson) but we were already paying a big chunk of our cap to defensive players, and that is only worsening.
I'm having trouble feeling optimistic about this coming season (I know, some would say ever about me), because we are so cap-strapped that the team is asking players to restructure and considering trading away an established starting TE or CB to save salary space. Championship seasons usually start by adding more talent and resources, not being forced to remove some. Heaven help this team if they need to sign a veteran in week 2 due to injury.
The key to the season will be the performance of this highly paid defense to show up when it matters most.
The last two seasons ended with the defense getting their arses kicked 38-7 by Nick Foles and then allowing the Bears to run all over them losing the final game last year. The offense struggled against the Bears but that should have been expected. The defense allowing 3 long TD drives was unacceptable especially with the Bears missing their top WR and another WR going out early in the 2nd quarter.
The killer in that game was when the offense got it to 13-10 at the end of the 3rd quarter. The defense proceeded to allow the Bears to go on a 9 minute, 16 play, 75 yard drive that resulted in a TD and a 2 pt conversion that all but sealed the game.
This defense, to me, is overrated. They are front runners. They do fine in the regular season. But when all the marbles are on the line, they fold up like cheap chairs.
Barr was recently complaining about them not getting respect.
They need to earn it.
Quote: @"Jor-El" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
Jor-El hit the nail on the head.
The decision to trade for Bradford put into motion the signing of Cousins. That was really a dumb trade.
Spielman got taken advantage of by Roseman really.
I have no idea why Spielman had Hill as his #2 QB if he was not ready to play him. The Patriots lost Brady in the first game in 2008 and went with Matt Cassel who had less experience than Hill. They did not panic and trade a future 1st round pick to get a dude that was now out of favor with a 2nd team.
If they play Hill and sign some other backup off the scrap heap they like lose 2 more games. I think that is a reasonable guess and that would have put them at 6-10 and drafting 9th in 2017.
They could have been in the running for Mahomes (who they brought in for a visit) and Watson. Even if they did not want one of them they could have maybe traded with the Chiefs or Texans.
The lesson to learn here is you never trade your 1st round pick unless you are getting an All Pro like Allen.
At the worst, Spielman should have at least given Hill 3 to 5 more games to see how he was doing and to try and drive that price down for Bradford. If he could have gotten Bradford for a 3rd and something else that would have been easier to understand.
That move set into motion this whole scenario.
I would refute those that say Cousins fumbles a lot. He fumbles just as much as other QBs. The problem last year was that the Vikings were very unlucky recovering those fumbles.
https://www.footballperspective.com/the-vikings-had-the-worst-fumble-luck-in-2018/
Last year Derek Carr, Dak Prescott, Jared Goff, Lamar Jackson, Case Keenum, Josh Rosen, Matt Ryan, and Russell Wilson all had more fumbles (max was 12 so not that many).
Carson Wentz, Marcus Mariota, Deshaun Watson, and Patrick Mahomes all had the same number of fumbles.
https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=M
The narrative that Cousins fumbled a lot is really false. He is about in the middle. Plus, two of the fumbles charged to Cousins were the backwards (laterals) passes they threw that went out of bounds. Very very few posters ever mention this fact.
I think the Viking should draft a QB next year no matter what they do with Cousins. I was kind of surprised they did not take one this year but I guess after Grier was gone they felt the UDFA route was the way to go.
I think RS/MZ were comfortable with Hill holding down the fort a game or 2, not a season. They had what they thought was a SB contending team too, lots of at stake.
I'll bet there were many in Eden Prairie who even thought Bradford was going to be an improvement over Bridgewater. Those were such extenuating circumstances, I applaud them for what they did, even in retrospect.
But then again, I was never a big Bridgewater fan and I felt Bradford could have been the final cog to the machine.
Yes, I believe that is true: some people in WP might have almost welcomed the opportunity to replace Bridgewater. No one will ever admit it, but I don't think Bridgewater was unanimously loved within the organization. Zimmer probably loved him as a minimize-mistakes/game-manager/handoff-to-Peterson QB, but as Peterson faded from the team's plans, I think others wanted a big strong-armed pocket passer, and thought Bradford could be the guy. By then we had Pat Shurmur here, who loved Bradford. I think the division over Bridgewater showed up in the way he left the team last year.
Like several others, I will admit I liked the move at the time. But we are still allowed to look back and say it was a mistake with long impact, and that we're disappointed our professional GM did not make a better decision.
Another aspect of that trade: we were already in cap space trouble. Yes, even though we were in the "QB on a rookie contract magic formula" that everyone in the NFL now loves, we could not afford to pay Bradford's contract ($18M in 2016), so we negotiated with the Eagles to pay $11M by improving our trade from a 2nd round pick to a 1st. So our cap space problem cost us a draft pick.
But hey, if the Vikings' salary problems are due to a "quarterback trap", why were we already in trouble in 2016 while only paying Bridgewater and Hill about $3M combined? Partly due to some high offensive contracts (Kalil, Peterson) but we were already paying a big chunk of our cap to defensive players, and that is only worsening.
I'm having trouble feeling optimistic about this coming season (I know, some would say ever about me), because we are so cap-strapped that the team is asking players to restructure and considering trading away an established starting TE or CB to save salary space. Championship seasons usually start by adding more talent and resources, not being forced to remove some. Heaven help this team if they need to sign a veteran in week 2 due to injury.
The Vikings had about the 16th-18th most cap space in 2016 before the Bradford trade. That is part of what allowed them to trade for Bradford.
And, the Vikings didn't negotiate the $11M that the Eagles paid. That was Bradford's signing bonus for the contract he had just signed a couple months earlier ($7M base salary in 2016 with an $11M signing bonus and a total of 2 years $36M). The team that signs the QB is always responsible for the signing bonus.
I can't imagine comparing the the Bradford and Walker trades. The Bradford trade was pretty easily understood: we got the best semi-available QB we could after our kid went down. Our backup was a career backup, and Bradford had just survived a tough season that (seemingly) quieted fears about his Tinkertoy knees.
A common thread: our o-line sucked, so our D had to overwork...and by the second half of the season, both were fatal flaws.
The Walker trade completely powered up Dallas to be a freakin' dynasty team, getting us a RB that was about to have tragic fall-off. We traded for a muscle car that was about to throw a rod.
Very different.
Quote: @"silverjoel" said:
@"Jor-El" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
Jor-El hit the nail on the head.
The decision to trade for Bradford put into motion the signing of Cousins. That was really a dumb trade.
Spielman got taken advantage of by Roseman really.
I have no idea why Spielman had Hill as his #2 QB if he was not ready to play him. The Patriots lost Brady in the first game in 2008 and went with Matt Cassel who had less experience than Hill. They did not panic and trade a future 1st round pick to get a dude that was now out of favor with a 2nd team.
If they play Hill and sign some other backup off the scrap heap they like lose 2 more games. I think that is a reasonable guess and that would have put them at 6-10 and drafting 9th in 2017.
They could have been in the running for Mahomes (who they brought in for a visit) and Watson. Even if they did not want one of them they could have maybe traded with the Chiefs or Texans.
The lesson to learn here is you never trade your 1st round pick unless you are getting an All Pro like Allen.
At the worst, Spielman should have at least given Hill 3 to 5 more games to see how he was doing and to try and drive that price down for Bradford. If he could have gotten Bradford for a 3rd and something else that would have been easier to understand.
That move set into motion this whole scenario.
I would refute those that say Cousins fumbles a lot. He fumbles just as much as other QBs. The problem last year was that the Vikings were very unlucky recovering those fumbles.
https://www.footballperspective.com/the-...k-in-2018/
Last year Derek Carr, Dak Prescott, Jared Goff, Lamar Jackson, Case Keenum, Josh Rosen, Matt Ryan, and Russell Wilson all had more fumbles (max was 12 so not that many).
Carson Wentz, Marcus Mariota, Deshaun Watson, and Patrick Mahomes all had the same number of fumbles.
https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=M
The narrative that Cousins fumbled a lot is really false. He is about in the middle. Plus, two of the fumbles charged to Cousins were the backwards (laterals) passes they threw that went out of bounds. Very very few posters ever mention this fact.
I think the Viking should draft a QB next year no matter what they do with Cousins. I was kind of surprised they did not take one this year but I guess after Grier was gone they felt the UDFA route was the way to go.
I think RS/MZ were comfortable with Hill holding down the fort a game or 2, not a season. They had what they thought was a SB contending team too, lots of at stake.
I'll bet there were many in Eden Prairie who even thought Bradford was going to be an improvement over Bridgewater. Those were such extenuating circumstances, I applaud them for what they did, even in retrospect.
But then again, I was never a big Bridgewater fan and I felt Bradford could have been the final cog to the machine.
Yes, I believe that is true: some people in WP might have almost welcomed the opportunity to replace Bridgewater. No one will ever admit it, but I don't think Bridgewater was unanimously loved within the organization. Zimmer probably loved him as a minimize-mistakes/game-manager/handoff-to-Peterson QB, but as Peterson faded from the team's plans, I think others wanted a big strong-armed pocket passer, and thought Bradford could be the guy. By then we had Pat Shurmur here, who loved Bradford. I think the division over Bridgewater showed up in the way he left the team last year.
Like several others, I will admit I liked the move at the time. But we are still allowed to look back and say it was a mistake with long impact, and that we're disappointed our professional GM did not make a better decision.
Another aspect of that trade: we were already in cap space trouble. Yes, even though we were in the "QB on a rookie contract magic formula" that everyone in the NFL now loves, we could not afford to pay Bradford's contract ($18M in 2016), so we negotiated with the Eagles to pay $11M by improving our trade from a 2nd round pick to a 1st. So our cap space problem cost us a draft pick.
But hey, if the Vikings' salary problems are due to a "quarterback trap", why were we already in trouble in 2016 while only paying Bridgewater and Hill about $3M combined? Partly due to some high offensive contracts (Kalil, Peterson) but we were already paying a big chunk of our cap to defensive players, and that is only worsening.
I'm having trouble feeling optimistic about this coming season (I know, some would say ever about me), because we are so cap-strapped that the team is asking players to restructure and considering trading away an established starting TE or CB to save salary space. Championship seasons usually start by adding more talent and resources, not being forced to remove some. Heaven help this team if they need to sign a veteran in week 2 due to injury.
The Vikings had about the 16th-18th most cap space in 2016 before the Bradford trade. That is part of what allowed them to trade for Bradford.
And, the Vikings didn't negotiate the $11M that the Eagles paid. That was Bradford's signing bonus for the contract he had just signed a couple months earlier ($7M base salary in 2016 with an $11M signing bonus and a total of 2 years $36M). The team that signs the QB is always responsible for the signing bonus.
I don't know what is "always" in trades (especially with teams seemingly able to redefine salary and signing bonus at will as with Kendricks), but I read many articles at the time like the one below, which said, "The Eagles paid $11 million of Bradford's salary as part of the deal": http://http//www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000694979/article/sam-bradford-traded-to-vikings-for-two-draft-picks
Regardless, we were in cap trouble before the trade and only got worse. The Wayback Machine for Spotrac tells me that on August 9, 2016, the Vikings had about $6M of cap space. I don't know how that ranked among teams, but On September 4, after adding Sam Bradford, he counted for $7M and with him and other changes we had -$164K space. Without the Eagles paying most of his salary, we could not afford to add a mid-paid QB or any other needed piece. That's why we were soon scraping the bottom of the OL barrel for someone like Jake Long who would play for the vet minimum.
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