Quote: @"Tyr" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"Amazonviking" said:
Lets say he goes Oline and misses on the 1st round pick only to have a stud DT who was rated much higher get taken right after we draft the 4th rated linemen? We end up missing the playoffs because our DT's suck and teams run up the gut on us and keep Cousin's off the field.
I think you have to balance need and BPA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that 4th rated linemen is going to comp much lower that the 4th rated DT.
The best teams, trust their boards in the draft and use free agency to fill need.
I guess I don't know why some fans think our DTs are going to suck because we lost Sheldon Richardson. In my opinion, our run defense was MUCH better in 2017 with Linval and Shamar Stephen on early downs and Tom Johnson subbing in on obvious passing downs. Neither of those guys have the pure talent that Sheldon does, but collectively they were better for our defense.
The beauty of this draft and where the Vikings are picking... that 4th rated OL might be the #1 rated interior OL in the draft pool. You could argue that would be the better pick in terms of BPA compared to taking the 4th best DT in your hypothetical above.
If the Vikings don't find a way to push the pocket in 2019 they are doing to have some issues generating consistent pressure like they did late in the 2018 season. Linval and Shamar are a good run stuffing duo but I do think part of Shamar's role will be keeping Linval fresh since his workload caught up with him last season. Jaleel Johnson is the most natural 3-tech they have on the roster but he is somewhat unproven and could be the rotational piece if they add an impact rookie.
Late in the 2018 season teams started to leave their QB shallow in the pocket since they could cut down on the rush arc and prevent the DE's from getting too deep. The Vikings couldn't get the push to stop it. In 2019 Sheldon took that out of the equation and the DE's benefited tremendously. Heck, I think we may have an entirely different opinion on Weatherly without Sheldon in the middle last season.
Especially with teams spreading out the field so much, interior pressure is the fastest way to the QB. Who do you think would be good fits that could generate quick pressure up the middle like Richardson did? I know that you mentioned Simmons in a previous mock, but with both Spielman and Zimmer having their jobs on the line, I think they would need to find someone who can make a more immediate impact. Also, is there any reason to believe that Jalyn Holmes could step up and provide interior pass rush or is he too much of a tweener?
I'm going to be very interested to see how Johnson and Holmes have progressed and if either can give us anything in the way of steady production in the middle. Stephen is more of a run stuffer and a backup to Joseph.
Interesting note, I was listening to a radio interview yesterday with former NFL GM Mike Lombardi regarding the draft. He has Simmons ranked as his top overall prospect in this draft. It's going to be very interesting to see where he lands in this draft despite the injury because he is certainly a talent.
Quote: @"supafreak84" said:
@"Tyr" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"Amazonviking" said:
Lets say he goes Oline and misses on the 1st round pick only to have a stud DT who was rated much higher get taken right after we draft the 4th rated linemen? We end up missing the playoffs because our DT's suck and teams run up the gut on us and keep Cousin's off the field.
I think you have to balance need and BPA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that 4th rated linemen is going to comp much lower that the 4th rated DT.
The best teams, trust their boards in the draft and use free agency to fill need.
I guess I don't know why some fans think our DTs are going to suck because we lost Sheldon Richardson. In my opinion, our run defense was MUCH better in 2017 with Linval and Shamar Stephen on early downs and Tom Johnson subbing in on obvious passing downs. Neither of those guys have the pure talent that Sheldon does, but collectively they were better for our defense.
The beauty of this draft and where the Vikings are picking... that 4th rated OL might be the #1 rated interior OL in the draft pool. You could argue that would be the better pick in terms of BPA compared to taking the 4th best DT in your hypothetical above.
If the Vikings don't find a way to push the pocket in 2019 they are doing to have some issues generating consistent pressure like they did late in the 2018 season. Linval and Shamar are a good run stuffing duo but I do think part of Shamar's role will be keeping Linval fresh since his workload caught up with him last season. Jaleel Johnson is the most natural 3-tech they have on the roster but he is somewhat unproven and could be the rotational piece if they add an impact rookie.
Late in the 2018 season teams started to leave their QB shallow in the pocket since they could cut down on the rush arc and prevent the DE's from getting too deep. The Vikings couldn't get the push to stop it. In 2019 Sheldon took that out of the equation and the DE's benefited tremendously. Heck, I think we may have an entirely different opinion on Weatherly without Sheldon in the middle last season.
Especially with teams spreading out the field so much, interior pressure is the fastest way to the QB. Who do you think would be good fits that could generate quick pressure up the middle like Richardson did? I know that you mentioned Simmons in a previous mock, but with both Spielman and Zimmer having their jobs on the line, I think they would need to find someone who can make a more immediate impact. Also, is there any reason to believe that Jalyn Holmes could step up and provide interior pass rush or is he too much of a tweener?
I'm going to be very interested to see how Johnson and Holmes have progressed and if either can give us anything in the way of steady production in the middle. Stephen is more of a run stuffer and a backup to Joseph.
Interesting note, I was listening to a radio interview yesterday with former NFL GM Mike Lombardi regarding the draft. He has Simmons ranked as his top overall prospect in this draft. It's going to be very interesting to see where he lands in this draft despite the injury because he is certainly a talent.
I'm interested to see how Johnson and Holmes progress as well. It would be great if they can step up and replace Richardson at a high level, but it feels like there's enough uncertainty that I wouldn't be shocked if they draft a DT in the first 3 rounds. As for Simmons, his talent is not in question, but it's really hard for a team to spend a 1st rounder on a player who will redshirt his rookie year. I don't think that Spielman is in a stable enough position to make that, so hopefully he can find someone who can make more of an immediate impact.
The Vikings added an "elite 3T" last year - Sheldon Richardson - who had already made the transition to the NFL. That was supposed to be "the missing piece". It wasn't. Why would a rookie DT take this defense to a higher level? Just Zimmer trying to add as many defensive toys as possible.
Quote: @"Jor-El" said:
The Vikings added an "elite 3T" last year - Sheldon Richardson - who had already made the transition to the NFL. That was supposed to be "the missing piece". It wasn't. Why would a rookie DT take this defense to a higher level? Just Zimmer trying to add as many defensive toys as possible.
You don't really believe Richardson is "elite" do you? I'd say "above average", but it's not like he's a dominating, elite DT. I'd think Zim would like a top prospect DT so he can mold him into the player he hoped Richardson was going to be.
Elite 3Ts don't end up playing for 4 different teams in 4 years. Sheldon is a streaky pass rusher and crappy run defender. At least 3 guys in this Draft profile as better players, IMO.
But to Superman's daddy's point, how much better would anyone other than Oliver, Q. Williams or Simmons really make this Defense? I like Dexter Lawrence but his pass rush moves are raw. Wilkins has a higher floor but lower ceiling than his teammate. I'm not sold on Gary as a DT at all.
Quote: @"HappyViking" said:
@"Jor-El" said:
The Vikings added an "elite 3T" last year - Sheldon Richardson - who had already made the transition to the NFL. That was supposed to be "the missing piece". It wasn't. Why would a rookie DT take this defense to a higher level? Just Zimmer trying to add as many defensive toys as possible.
You don't really believe Richardson is "elite" do you? I'd say "above average", but it's not like he's a dominating, elite DT. I'd think Zim would like a top prospect DT so he can mold him into the player he hoped Richardson was going to be.
Personally, no - but he was picked 13th (higher than anyone we are likely to choose this year) in a draft described as very deep with DL talent, he was DROY, has played in a Pro Bowl, and 2 teams have given him big contracts in the first week of free agency, so he's got qualifications above any rookie.
More importantly - didn't Zimmer think Sheldon was "great enough" (if not "elite") to elevate the pass rush? How many resources does he get to burn to try to get it right?
IMO there is a problem with expectations around 3Ts because there is exactly ONE who is elite. If our defense needs Aaron Donald to complete it, we shouldn't hold our breath.
Quote: @"FSUVike" said:
Elite 3Ts don't end up playing for 4 different teams in 4 years. Sheldon is a streaky pass rusher and crappy run defender. At least 3 guys in this Draft profile as better players, IMO.
But to Superman's daddy's point, how much better would anyone other than Oliver, Q. Williams or Simmons really make this Defense? I like Dexter Lawrence but his pass rush moves are raw. Wilkins has a higher floor but lower ceiling than his teammate. I'm not sold on Gary as a DT at all.
I wouldn't necessarily box yourself into interior D-lineman. Everson is still somewhat of a question mark and I do think they will play around with bumping him inside on pure passing downs. Some of that is to give Weatherly some additional snaps since he's earned them. But Everson could actually be very effective inside given his side and quickness off the snap. Although they like Weatherly I don't think they'd hesitate to take an elite DE prospect at #18 if one is there. They have a unique profile but I think Patterson and Zimmer could turn someone like Brian Burns into a star.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"FSUVike" said:
Elite 3Ts don't end up playing for 4 different teams in 4 years. Sheldon is a streaky pass rusher and crappy run defender. At least 3 guys in this Draft profile as better players, IMO.
But to Superman's daddy's point, how much better would anyone other than Oliver, Q. Williams or Simmons really make this Defense? I like Dexter Lawrence but his pass rush moves are raw. Wilkins has a higher floor but lower ceiling than his teammate. I'm not sold on Gary as a DT at all.
I wouldn't necessarily box yourself into interior D-lineman. Everson is still somewhat of a question mark and I do think they will play around with bumping him inside on pure passing downs. Some of that is to give Weatherly some additional snaps since he's earned them. But Everson could actually be very effective inside given his side and quickness off the snap. Although they like Weatherly I don't think they'd hesitate to take an elite DE prospect at #18 if one is there. They have a unique profile but I think Patterson and Zimmer could turn someone like Brian Burns into a star.
Was really just responding to Jor El.about 3T vs. O-Line at #18.
Like CB, you almost can't have enough effective Pass Rushing DEs. I think Westherly is the real deal but everyone behind him was a late round pick or UDFA. In other words a bunch of raw projects.
So I absolutely wouldn't mind a DE and some NASCAR looks like the Giants used to implement on obvious passing downs.
But I'm really torn on Burns. Seems like every other year a highly touted and consistently productive DE comes out of Tallahassee and does squat in the NFL. Meanwhile, lesser known DTs keep coming in and exceeding expectations.
Is Burns different? He's superior athletically to most FSU busts. I'd still be nervous.
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