Do you still believe Zimmer has an Elite D?

They are definitely starting age.  Time to start looking for replacements, especially for Harrison.  They have infused some young CB's and DL's.  Not as elite as they were, slower for sure.

I guess I don't know what an elite D is anymore. I think its extremely difficult to have your defense be a consistently dominating unit in today's NFL. Minnesota has only allowed 158 points and has a net point differential of 76 (only the Patriots and 49ers are better). Yet the Vikings have lost 3 games and the 49ers and Patriots have only lost 1 between them. 

Nope, but I do think they're pretty good, but not SB Champion good.  Same with the offense.  Going into the season I thought this was an 8-8 team.  Now I think 9-7 or 10-6.  Better than last season, but there are plenty of better teams out there.
The interior DL still doesn't get the push other great Ds can get (like the Bears last season, and Eagles the season before).  That can disrupt both running and passing plays, and frees up LBs.
I'm sure if Zim had players on the DL that could do that, he could do wonders with his schemes.
Same with the OL.  They're improved from last season, but far from being dominent. 

This entire team is good, but it has weaknesses too.

Zimmers unit peaked in 2017, same as Zimmer. 

He no longer has a shut down corner, which appears to be a luxury in the NFL. So he can't play much man press coverage and pressure. They say his zone defense is good, but it sure seems to allow a lot of catches.

The line doesn't get consistent pressure when rushing 4 and they mostly play on the wrong side of the line of scrimmage against the run.

The defensive scheme seems less aggressive and lacks innovation. Their numbers aren't bad so I like to think they can improve. But maybe the personnel is overrated since they have been spending their draft capital on the offense lately.

They are good but not elite. They can beat average teams but struggle against the best teams, and rarely dominate like they used to.

What really showcased the defense was they could put Rhodes out on an island with the opposition's best receiver and took him out of the game.  This also allowed a lot more blitzing, shutting the offense down.  Today, Rhodes gives up too many receptions and too many yards.  So now, they probably push one of the safeties to Rhodes' side to play over the top  to prevent a receiver taking it to the house. 

Da Bears "had" an elite D.  They aren't so much anymore either. 

2nd level maybe/yes,  but no I dont think they are elite,  but I dont know who is and by what metric is the best way to determine elite.

I know that a lot of talking heads rank them by yards allowed.... most fans look at points allowed... however I think time of possession is a big one as well,  now granted our offense has a lot to do with TOP as well as the defense,  but IMO our D is not getting off the field at an elite level.  they are ranked 12th in 3rd down % allowed and 14th in 4th down % converted... those are not elite rankings.  they are also 11th in penalty yards surrendered.  point being,  the money thrown at our defense they should be setting the O up by getting off the field before the opposition can flip the field position.  Our D is giving up on average over 31 yards per drive this season with ranks them 15th.  They are 20th in plays allowed per drive and 19th in time of possession per drive.

Our corners are not playing well. Allowing way too big plays. Waynes is always in good position but can't locate the ball and Rhodes is slow. Better develope Hughes and Hill in a hurry.

@"purpleloki" said: Our corners are not playing well. Allowing way too big plays. Waynes is always in good position but can't locate the ball and Rhodes is slow. Better develope Hughes and Hill in a hurry.

Our LBs were out of position on several plays yesterday as well.  Leber was calling that out quite often on the whine line after the game.   It also appeared the Hunter took himself out of position badly which allowed that monster run.   There are failures at all levels right now on D.

Im not sure what Elite is in todays NFL either...

It aint the Steel Curtain, PPE's, 85 Bears, Dungy's Bucs, Ravens, may not even be the 2015/16 Vikings? How the game has changed in a short period is pretty incredible. 

Not much of an elite D anywhere in the league where the 2 really good ones, Pats and 49ers haven't played anyone as evidenced by the Pats getting exposed last night.   But the funny thing is, where is the elite offense outside of Kansas City when Mahomes is healthy?   Elite offense pretty requires an elite qb and outside of Mahomes and maybe Watson who qualifies right now?   Watching Brady last night it's clear he's close to being done.   I guess Brees is still somewhat elite though clearly aging but surrounded by weapons so New Orleans would qualify.   To me they are probably the best team out there now in terms of looking at both sides of the ball.   Russell Wilson might be there, or arguable not but they never give him an oline and that team has lost it's elite defense as well.

Definitely not elite right now.  I think we look pretty good statistically, but
I don’t think we’re setting the tone in games. 
It feels like our defense is playing not to lose, rather than assert
their will on the other teams offense.  I
think I’d prefer us being more aggressive and confident, even if it wasn’t as
good statistically.  I just think we need
more moxie on defense to compete with playoff caliber teams.

We have elite pieces. We're just too often losing the chess game. 

5 First Round Draft Picks (4 in the Secondary alone)
2 Second Round Draft Picks
2 Third Round Draft Picks 
6 Contracts signed 

Sounds All World to me. 9ers might have similar Draft Capital in theirs. NE sure doesn't. 

It's Zimmer,  plain and simple. 2nd and forever after Weatherly forces the fumble and he rushes 3 but still can't figure out how to double Kelce? 3rd and 1 and he still can't get Wayne's help? I thought playing all this zone coverage was supposed to prevent chunk plays. How many did the Chiefs have yesterday with a backup, journeyman QB?

This is an example of the whole being lesser than the sum of its parts. And that's on the Coach.

Thanks to Jimmy for the stats regarding TOP. It's not just the lack of sacks, TOs and 3 & Outs, it's the long enough drives to consistently keep the Offense starting deep enough to have to go too far too many times to score. The O-Line, KC and Stefanski just aren't there yet to be able sustain enough long drives to score enough to beat good teams.

I see all those high Draft Picks and Contracts and can't believe a Defense that's had most of its Starters in place for several years now can't do more to help an Offense learning its 3rd system in 3 years.

Rule changes in 2018 altered how defense can be played in the secondary for all teams.

And it's made Zimmer defense much less effective. 

I haven't noticed  adjustments or invention by Zimmer to offset the decline. 

The game has changed and Zimmer hasn't. 

A defense that is not elite is the result

No. It's just below that. I do think that Rhodes are open too often. His days are numbered. Too inconsistent and slow. He had a good game yesterday though. Elite defenses generate turnovers and points. They are not there right now. They don't generate enough pressure for the pass rush and there is too much open underneath. They get burned deep and the opponents keep moving the chains. There has been continuity but they are started to age. I think changes are coming. Hunter is a bright spot. We'll see what happens. 

It begins on the DL, and while we're getting pressure from the ends, the tackles are not collapsing the pocket.  They may be good run blockers, but we need more boost up front.  Maybe slip Griffon in there once in a while.

Weatherly almost singlehandedly ended the game yesterday but we couldn't get the fumble.  We need more of that effort from the inside.

we have to start getting after the QB early in the game,  make the opposing OC hesitant to call for those deep developing plays like Hill burned us with yesterday.  the lack of any blitz early is getting to be a trend that opposing teams will notice.

as I was looking at o and d stats,  i noticed that our O is ranked statistically higher in a shit load of categories while our defense is more in the middling territory.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsoff/2019

while the O is still very much in the project phase,  this shows that things arent as dire over there as yesterdays result may have some believing.

On the 2nd to last play of the game, right before the FG, it was 3rd and 4 or something. Instead of jamming them, we played off, and they got an easy completion for another 8-9 yards to move the FG from 50+ to 44 yds.
The defense does this a LOT, even in critical situations like this. It's maddening.