Reality Bites
This O-Line still isn't ready for prime time. No holes for Cook, shoddy pass blocking against a Defense that scares nobody. Kirk was inconsistent. So was Stefanski.
So lean on that Defense. Great play by Weatherly followed by rushing 3 on 2nd and Long and still couldn't double Kelce. Left Waynes to consistently get beat by Hill with no adjustments. Played a lot of zone and still gave up like 5 chunk plays. Zimmer now 0-2 against backup QBs this year.
Well, there's always the Special Teams with the player of the week, who missed an extra point. Sigh.
Team loss. Coaches, Players, all 3 Units. I'm not seeing a team that can win on the road in the Playoffs. Didn't expect the Defense to get a stop for even 1 second despite the sack. Expected the 3 & Out on Offense. Expected the team to lose momentum in the 3rd instead of stretching the lead. It's just who've they've always been during this regime.
Chiefs had lost 3 in a row at home because teams were playing Man and doubling their only 2 weapons and because teams were running all over them and keeping that Offense on the sideline. Minnesota couldn't follow that blueprint that lesser teams employed successfully. That leads me to believe they were either outcoached or aren't as good as I thought. Or maybe both.
Just not seeing more than 1 & done as the ceiling at this point
@"silverjoel" said:@"MarkSP18" said:@"Akvike" said:@"StickyBun" said: Don't blame this on Cousins, he's not the reason they lost. Wasn't his best game but he threw for 3 TDs and zero interceptions.This is all on the coaching staff and D.....and the offensive line.
bullshit---he was off all game if you're honest. Yes 3 tds and no ints but how many off stride or clean misses
He was off to start the game and just missed Diggs deep which are completed 50% of the time or less.
But for many in this fan base, the QB needs to be PERFECT. He is not permitted to be off or to miss any passes.
It is revealing that there is no criticism of the OL which played the worse of any unit.When you have the NFL leading rusher and he gets 71 yards on 21 carries with 1 carry going for 22 yards then they are not doing their jobs.
The run was suppose to set up the pass in this offense and play action will not work if you have proven you cannot run.
Cousins was under a fair amount of pressure when dropping back but only took one sack which I think in part was him throwing some passes away on purpose (at least a few).
The offense without Thielen is easier to stop. Without seeing the All 22 it seems that KC was doubling up Diggs or sading the safety over the top more often. That left the rest of the receivers which do not scare any team.
So the offense could not run the ball and was missing one of their top weapons and still managed to cobble together 23 points on the road against a team that went to the championship game last year. That is good.
The defense on the other hand has no excuses. The Chiefs were missing Fisher who is their starting left tackle and Tardiff who is their starting right guard.
The defense has 8 players making 9 mil or more. They gave up a 91 yard TD drive that took 8:56 off the clock and a 91 yard TD run plus the long passes to Hill who should have been doubled as soon as he got out of his car.
But because Cousins has his contract, he gets the most criticism and he has to overcome everything.
The offense is now on it's 4th OC and new coach in 4 years.The defense has the same coaches and system since 2014.7 of the starters on defense have been here since 2016.9 of the starters on defense have been here since 2017.They got their arse kicked 3807 by Nick Foles with the chance to go to the Super Bowl on the line.They let the Bears run 37 times for 167 yards last year with the chance to go to the playoffs.
The reality is that this defense is severely overrated and they are chokers who come up small in the biggest games.If you need them to hit two free throws to win the game they wont even hit one.
But Cousins is the real problem.
So, the defense has to play perfect?They forced 4 3-and-outs (the most in any game against the Chiefs), held the Chiefs to below their season scoring average (one of the best offenses in the NFL for years) while holding them to 2 TDs.
The offense had 6 3-and-outs. Their their longest drive was only 5:31. When the Vikings took the lead in the 4th, the defense forced a 4 play drive that ended in a punt. The offense then burned 1:12 off the clock with a 3-and-out (could have put the game away right here). Defense gives up a 54 yard FG. Offense has another 3-and-out when they could have won the game. Bad punt, another FG.
And I'll point out that the Chiefs have one of the best offenses and a bottom defense.
If a QB has like 10 Trubisky-level throws in a game, he shares the blame.
Are you saying the Defense played good? Against a journeyman backup QB who was out of football last year. Against an O-Line missing it's LT and RG. With a no-name RB. And exactly 2 big time weapons that should have been neutralized by double teams instead of more shitty zone coverage.Since when does a Defense with all that MSP mentioned has invested in it, that's been together that long get a pass for that performance? Screw that. Parcells and Belicheat would have these exact same Players performing at an Elite level. Why? Because they actually fucking gameplan for each and every opponent. Something Zimmer seems allergic to doing.
The reality is that Kirk was too inconsistent AND the O-Line played like shit AND Stefanski made zero adjustments to the Chiefs stacking the box AND losing Thielen early hurt AND the Defense underperformed given the circumstances AND Mike Zimmer failed yet again to see what other teams had done against the Chiefs to slow them down AND the Special Teams didn't help.
It was a truly Team loss that started during game planning and ended with horseshit execution and zero in-game adjustments. Everyone is to blame for this one. But it starts at the top with the tone deaf HC and his crappy Secondary loaded with 1st Round picks. Or maybe it's a great Secondary that either isn't suited to or hates playing zone. No one is exempt from critique after that loss, though. No one.
@"FSUVike" said:@"silverjoel" said:@"MarkSP18" said:@"Akvike" said:@"StickyBun" said: Don't blame this on Cousins, he's not the reason they lost. Wasn't his best game but he threw for 3 TDs and zero interceptions.This is all on the coaching staff and D.....and the offensive line.
bullshit---he was off all game if you're honest. Yes 3 tds and no ints but how many off stride or clean misses
He was off to start the game and just missed Diggs deep which are completed 50% of the time or less.
But for many in this fan base, the QB needs to be PERFECT. He is not permitted to be off or to miss any passes.
It is revealing that there is no criticism of the OL which played the worse of any unit.When you have the NFL leading rusher and he gets 71 yards on 21 carries with 1 carry going for 22 yards then they are not doing their jobs.
The run was suppose to set up the pass in this offense and play action will not work if you have proven you cannot run.
Cousins was under a fair amount of pressure when dropping back but only took one sack which I think in part was him throwing some passes away on purpose (at least a few).
The offense without Thielen is easier to stop. Without seeing the All 22 it seems that KC was doubling up Diggs or sading the safety over the top more often. That left the rest of the receivers which do not scare any team.
So the offense could not run the ball and was missing one of their top weapons and still managed to cobble together 23 points on the road against a team that went to the championship game last year. That is good.
The defense on the other hand has no excuses. The Chiefs were missing Fisher who is their starting left tackle and Tardiff who is their starting right guard.
The defense has 8 players making 9 mil or more. They gave up a 91 yard TD drive that took 8:56 off the clock and a 91 yard TD run plus the long passes to Hill who should have been doubled as soon as he got out of his car.
But because Cousins has his contract, he gets the most criticism and he has to overcome everything.
The offense is now on it's 4th OC and new coach in 4 years.The defense has the same coaches and system since 2014.7 of the starters on defense have been here since 2016.9 of the starters on defense have been here since 2017.They got their arse kicked 3807 by Nick Foles with the chance to go to the Super Bowl on the line.They let the Bears run 37 times for 167 yards last year with the chance to go to the playoffs.
The reality is that this defense is severely overrated and they are chokers who come up small in the biggest games.If you need them to hit two free throws to win the game they wont even hit one.
But Cousins is the real problem.
So, the defense has to play perfect?They forced 4 3-and-outs (the most in any game against the Chiefs), held the Chiefs to below their season scoring average (one of the best offenses in the NFL for years) while holding them to 2 TDs.
The offense had 6 3-and-outs. Their their longest drive was only 5:31. When the Vikings took the lead in the 4th, the defense forced a 4 play drive that ended in a punt. The offense then burned 1:12 off the clock with a 3-and-out (could have put the game away right here). Defense gives up a 54 yard FG. Offense has another 3-and-out when they could have won the game. Bad punt, another FG.
And I'll point out that the Chiefs have one of the best offenses and a bottom defense.
If a QB has like 10 Trubisky-level throws in a game, he shares the blame.
Are you saying the Defense played good? Against a journeyman backup QB who was out of football last year. Against an O-Line missing it's LT and RG. With a no-name RB. And exactly 2 big time weapons that should have been neutralized by double teams instead of more shitty zone coverage.Since when does a Defense with all that MSP mentioned has invested in it, that's been together that long get a pass for that performance? Screw that. Parcells and Belicheat would have these exact same Players performing at an Elite level. Why? Because they actually fucking gameplan for each and every opponent. Something Zimmer seems allergic to doing.
The reality is that Kirk was too inconsistent AND the O-Line played like shit AND Stefanski made zero adjustments to the Chiefs stacking the box AND losing Thielen early hurt AND the Defense underperformed given the circumstances AND Mike Zimmer failed yet again to see what other teams had done against the Chiefs to slow them down AND the Special Teams didn't help.
It was a truly Team loss that started during game planning and ended with horseshit execution and zero in-game adjustments. Everyone is to blame for this one. But it starts at the top with the tone deaf HC and his crappy Secondary loaded with 1st Round picks. Or maybe it's a great Secondary that either isn't suited to or hates playing zone. No one is exempt from critique after that loss, though. No one.
Did you expect the defense to hold the Chiefs to, what, like 17 points?Here's a thread about the scoring expectations:
https://vikefans.com/discussion/#/discussion/9976/pick-it-the-kc-way
Notice how every prediction, save 1, had the Chiefs scoring around what they did, which was also consistent with the general consensus. But when that actually happens, it's somehow bad?
The Colts beat the Chiefs by running up the middle. How did that work out? Because the run was being stuffed, the Vikings had to use the pass, which they did. How is that not a good game plan? Chiefs stopped what the Vikings wanted to do and the plays were adjusted. It's not the game plan's fault that Cousins sailed a lot of easy passes.
The Chiefs have had 4 games scoring 27 or less points this year: 13 (Colts mentioned above), 24, 24 and 26. They only have 1 win in those 4 games.
Now, I'm not saying it was 100% anyone's fault. But 50% completions and 5.8 yards per pass is really bad. Just hit like 4 of those easy completions or actually know where the line to gain on a run and magically the whole team, including the defense, looks a lot better. Not being able to hit easy passes is not the fault of the game plan or the defense. Not knowing where the first down is is 100% on that player.
The defense didn't play great, but they played the Chiefs better than most teams play them. The offense, however, was very meh.
@"silverjoel" said:@"MarkSP18" said:@"Akvike" said:@"StickyBun" said: Don't blame this on Cousins, he's not the reason they lost. Wasn't his best game but he threw for 3 TDs and zero interceptions.This is all on the coaching staff and D.....and the offensive line.
bullshit---he was off all game if you're honest. Yes 3 tds and no ints but how many off stride or clean misses
He was off to start the game and just missed Diggs deep which are completed 50% of the time or less.
But for many in this fan base, the QB needs to be PERFECT. He is not permitted to be off or to miss any passes.
It is revealing that there is no criticism of the OL which played the worse of any unit.When you have the NFL leading rusher and he gets 71 yards on 21 carries with 1 carry going for 22 yards then they are not doing their jobs.
The run was suppose to set up the pass in this offense and play action will not work if you have proven you cannot run.
Cousins was under a fair amount of pressure when dropping back but only took one sack which I think in part was him throwing some passes away on purpose (at least a few).
The offense without Thielen is easier to stop. Without seeing the All 22 it seems that KC was doubling up Diggs or sading the safety over the top more often. That left the rest of the receivers which do not scare any team.
So the offense could not run the ball and was missing one of their top weapons and still managed to cobble together 23 points on the road against a team that went to the championship game last year. That is good.
The defense on the other hand has no excuses. The Chiefs were missing Fisher who is their starting left tackle and Tardiff who is their starting right guard.
The defense has 8 players making 9 mil or more. They gave up a 91 yard TD drive that took 8:56 off the clock and a 91 yard TD run plus the long passes to Hill who should have been doubled as soon as he got out of his car.
But because Cousins has his contract, he gets the most criticism and he has to overcome everything.
The offense is now on it's 4th OC and new coach in 4 years.The defense has the same coaches and system since 2014.7 of the starters on defense have been here since 2016.9 of the starters on defense have been here since 2017.They got their arse kicked 3807 by Nick Foles with the chance to go to the Super Bowl on the line.They let the Bears run 37 times for 167 yards last year with the chance to go to the playoffs.
The reality is that this defense is severely overrated and they are chokers who come up small in the biggest games.If you need them to hit two free throws to win the game they wont even hit one.
But Cousins is the real problem.
So, the defense has to play perfect?They forced 4 3-and-outs (the most in any game against the Chiefs), held the Chiefs to below their season scoring average (one of the best offenses in the NFL for years) while holding them to 2 TDs.
The offense had 6 3-and-outs. Their their longest drive was only 5:31. When the Vikings took the lead in the 4th, the defense forced a 4 play drive that ended in a punt. The offense then burned 1:12 off the clock with a 3-and-out (could have put the game away right here). Defense gives up a 54 yard FG. Offense has another 3-and-out when they could have won the game. Bad punt, another FG.
And I'll point out that the Chiefs have one of the best offenses and a bottom defense.
If a QB has like 10 Trubisky-level throws in a game, he shares the blame.
the Chiefs high flying offense was missing its MVP QB... our defense sucked all things considered.our OLine sucked
Cousins played poorly, but you are a little over the top with the Trubisky type numbers, Kirk missed on some throws, but 10 would have to be a stretch.
@"JimmyinSD" said: the Chiefs high flying offense was missing its MVP QB... our defense sucked all things considered.our OLine sucked
Cousins played poorly, but you are a little over the top with the Trubisky type numbers, Kirk missed on some throws, but 10 would have to be a stretch.
The Chiefs scored 24 on the Packers with that QB. It's just that the Packers' offense scored 31. Moore doesn't have a turnover, has a high-ish passer rating (if you're into that), and already has more game winning drives this year than Cousins has as a Viking.
It's always the OLs fault. As if other QBs don't ever deal with that. Watch old man Brady move in the pocket, watch Watson get kicked in the face and still make a play, watch any Seahawks game. Everyone deals with it.
Here are 6 bad throws right here. Do you think there aren't 4-ish in the other 13 incompletions?
https://www.twitter.com/LukeBraunNFL/status/1191396546425704448?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fvikinghorn.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F10272%2Fkirk-cousins-trusted%3Fpage%3D6
The Packers played straight vanilla Defense. Which is what they do. They also had the League in number of plays given up over 40 yards. If they're your yardstick for measuring performance you are an easy grader.
All the media sees what we see: a Minnesota Defense in decline. That's why they expected the Chiefs, with a journeyman backup QB, to hang points on the same Defense Case Keenum was pushing around surrounded by a cast of pure shit, on the road. I'd he doesn't get hurt Minnesota probably loses that game.
The media also saw the Bears journeyman backup QB absolutely dominate TOP against this Defense. And GB, that had no Offensive identity at the time of the game, score 3 straight touchdowns.
Cousins didn't deliver. That was not 84 million worth of QB play. But that also wasn't 5 First Round, 2 Second Round, 2 Third Round and 6 contract extensions worth of Defense.
It can be about more than one thing. This loss was definitely about more than just Cousins or the Defense.
Stacked box? How about some quick slants. How about a TE down the seam. How about some no huddle. How about some shotgun looks with 3 WR sets. How about some pick plays. Or wheel routes.
How about ANYTHING other than what looked amazingly like Norv Turner's 7 step drop Offense with a crap pass blocking Line.
And explain why Stefanski only doubled teamed Chris Jones 15 plays? Or why Zimmer didn't double Kelce or Hill. Or only blitzed 7 times.
Again, Kirk didn't play well. But to lay the whole blame on his doorstep is incredibly myopic IMO.
@"silverjoel" said:@"MarkSP18" said:@"Akvike" said:@"StickyBun" said: Don't blame this on Cousins, he's not the reason they lost. Wasn't his best game but he threw for 3 TDs and zero interceptions.This is all on the coaching staff and D.....and the offensive line.
bullshit---he was off all game if you're honest. Yes 3 tds and no ints but how many off stride or clean misses
He was off to start the game and just missed Diggs deep which are completed 50% of the time or less.
But for many in this fan base, the QB needs to be PERFECT. He is not permitted to be off or to miss any passes.
It is revealing that there is no criticism of the OL which played the worse of any unit.When you have the NFL leading rusher and he gets 71 yards on 21 carries with 1 carry going for 22 yards then they are not doing their jobs.
The run was suppose to set up the pass in this offense and play action will not work if you have proven you cannot run.
Cousins was under a fair amount of pressure when dropping back but only took one sack which I think in part was him throwing some passes away on purpose (at least a few).
The offense without Thielen is easier to stop. Without seeing the All 22 it seems that KC was doubling up Diggs or sading the safety over the top more often. That left the rest of the receivers which do not scare any team.
So the offense could not run the ball and was missing one of their top weapons and still managed to cobble together 23 points on the road against a team that went to the championship game last year. That is good.
The defense on the other hand has no excuses. The Chiefs were missing Fisher who is their starting left tackle and Tardiff who is their starting right guard.
The defense has 8 players making 9 mil or more. They gave up a 91 yard TD drive that took 8:56 off the clock and a 91 yard TD run plus the long passes to Hill who should have been doubled as soon as he got out of his car.
But because Cousins has his contract, he gets the most criticism and he has to overcome everything.
The offense is now on it's 4th OC and new coach in 4 years.The defense has the same coaches and system since 2014.7 of the starters on defense have been here since 2016.9 of the starters on defense have been here since 2017.They got their arse kicked 3807 by Nick Foles with the chance to go to the Super Bowl on the line.They let the Bears run 37 times for 167 yards last year with the chance to go to the playoffs.
The reality is that this defense is severely overrated and they are chokers who come up small in the biggest games.If you need them to hit two free throws to win the game they wont even hit one.
But Cousins is the real problem.
So, the defense has to play perfect?They forced 4 3-and-outs (the most in any game against the Chiefs), held the Chiefs to below their season scoring average (one of the best offenses in the NFL for years) while holding them to 2 TDs.
The offense had 6 3-and-outs. Their their longest drive was only 5:31. When the Vikings took the lead in the 4th, the defense forced a 4 play drive that ended in a punt. The offense then burned 1:12 off the clock with a 3-and-out (could have put the game away right here). Defense gives up a 54 yard FG. Offense has another 3-and-out when they could have won the game. Bad punt, another FG.
And I'll point out that the Chiefs have one of the best offenses and a bottom defense.
If a QB has like 10 Trubisky-level throws in a game, he shares the blame.
Sure the defense should be credited for the times they made good stops.But I also think it's fair to hold the defense to a very high standard / expectaion- and then point out when they don't meet that expectation. Zimmer was hired to build a great defense and has been given every asset he wanted for that unit. It's amped up by hearing every announcer declare that he is a defensive genius.
Another issue with defensive expectations is that this unit usually seems to be competent but schemed to play a "bend don't break" approach. Zimmer's defense rarely appears to be an attacking unit that can intimidate opponents and take over the momentum of a game. since Zimmer took over in 2014, we have not finished a season in the top 10 in interceptions, and never even in the top 20 for forced fumbles. We've had good sack stats but go for stretches without getting consistent pressure. How many defensive scores have Zimmer's units delivered?Truly dominating defensive units win games for their teams. When the Broncos won the SB a few years ago, they had games where they scored less than 20 points, sometimes including defensive scores. But we have a "defensive genius" and every loss is followed by blaming our offense.
@"FSUVike" said: The Packers played straight vanilla Defense. Which is what they do. They also had the League in number of plays given up over 40 yards. If they're your yardstick for measuring performance you are an easy grader.All the media sees what we see: a Minnesota Defense in decline. That's why they expected the Chiefs, with a journeyman backup QB, to hang points on the same Defense Case Keenum was pushing around surrounded by a cast of pure shit, on the road. I'd he doesn't get hurt Minnesota probably loses that game.
The media also saw the Bears journeyman backup QB absolutely dominate TOP against this Defense. And GB, that had no Offensive identity at the time of the game, score 3 straight touchdowns.
Cousins didn't deliver. That was not 84 million worth of QB play. But that also wasn't 5 First Round, 2 Second Round, 2 Third Round and 6 contract extensions worth of Defense.
It can be about more than one thing. This loss was definitely about more than just Cousins or the Defense.
Stacked box? How about some quick slants. How about a TE down the seam. How about some no huddle. How about some shotgun looks with 3 WR sets. How about some pick plays. Or wheel routes.
How about ANYTHING other than what looked amazingly like Norv Turner's 7 step drop Offense with a crap pass blocking Line.
And explain why Stefanski only doubled teamed Chris Jones 15 plays? Or why Zimmer didn't double Kelce or Hill. Or only blitzed 7 times.
Again, Kirk didn't play well. But to lay the whole blame on his doorstep is incredibly myopic IMO.
GB has given up 24 or more points in 4 games this year: the loss to the Eagles (34 points), 2 blow out wins against the Cowboys and Raiders (in which both teams scored in garbage time to get to 24 points) and an actual close game against the Chiefs (24 points). So, in reality, it's the 2nd largest point total against the Packers in an actual competitive game. Moore has now started 2 games against teams that I expect to finish with a winning record. He lead his team on, not only a game tying drive, but also a game winning drive. Again, something Cousins has yet to do as a Viking. Did the Chiefs defense play great? No. Did the Chiefs OL play great? No. Yet, when it was needed, Moore made it happen.
Again, I'm not saying it's all on Cousins. But, 1 time, freaking 1 time, I don't want to hear these excuses, I want him to step up. The game was there to be won. Cousins failed horribly in 2 opportunities.
@"FSUVike" said: It's even worse than that, JL. Teams had a viable blueprint for beating the Chiefs WITH Mahomes: play tight man coverage and/or double Kelce and Hill.Zimmer did neither. And he only blitzed a journeyman backup QB who was out of football last year 7 times. Nor was he giving Moore much to think about pre-snap with fake blitz looks.
On the flip side Stefanski looked totally unprepared for a Defense stacking the box and watching for rollouts. The Chiefs have exactly 1 legit difference maker on Defense in Chris Jones. He's probably the 2ne best DT in the League. Matched up against Minnesota's worst O-Lineman. Who got help on an insanely low 15 snaps.
These coaches are showing an appalling lack of ability to learn from what other teams have done successfully against a common opponent. It's like they truly think their shit doesn't stink. Which is amazing since the only have decent team they've beaten is Philly, who was in a slump at the time.
Interesting observation and can't disagree. Sometimes I suspect that Zimmer thinks he is Belicheck - always going to surprise and trick the rest of the league. But he's not Belicheck.
@"Jor-El" said:@"FSUVike" said: It's even worse than that, JL. Teams had a viable blueprint for beating the Chiefs WITH Mahomes: play tight man coverage and/or double Kelce and Hill.Zimmer did neither. And he only blitzed a journeyman backup QB who was out of football last year 7 times. Nor was he giving Moore much to think about pre-snap with fake blitz looks.
On the flip side Stefanski looked totally unprepared for a Defense stacking the box and watching for rollouts. The Chiefs have exactly 1 legit difference maker on Defense in Chris Jones. He's probably the 2ne best DT in the League. Matched up against Minnesota's worst O-Lineman. Who got help on an insanely low 15 snaps.
These coaches are showing an appalling lack of ability to learn from what other teams have done successfully against a common opponent. It's like they truly think their shit doesn't stink. Which is amazing since the only have decent team they've beaten is Philly, who was in a slump at the time.
Interesting observation and can't disagree. Sometimes I suspect that Zimmer thinks he is Belicheck - always going to surprise and trick the rest of the league. But he's not Belicheck.
More like Pete Carroll. Pete played Cover 3 on every play and dared you to beat it and his superior players. Bill actually comes up with specific gameplans for every opposing Offense. Even crap ones like Miami.Jimmy pointed out in another thread that Zimmer seems content to play the Bend but don't Break, yielding below League Average results in INTs and Fumbles.
The only team he seems to consistently come in with a specific plan for is GB, likely because he knows Erin is too good for his typical conservative approach to Defense won't be enough to get the win. That's usually when you see those exotic blitz looks. Or against crap Offenses like NYG.
He's so afraid of the quick score or giving up chunk plays. And yet his Defense did both on Sunday.
And SilverJoel I'll say it again. Green Bay leads the NFL in number of plays given up over 40 yards. That is not a good yardstick for this Defense.
Interestingly, Kansas City media pointed to the GB game as a reason why Moore would struggle against Minnesota. The Packers played straight vanilla Defense the whole game, something Defensive Guru Mike Zimmer would never do. They expected Double A gap looks and Harry faking and coming on blitzes to confuse Moore and were convinced he would struggle.
Instead, Zimmer was as vanilla as GB. Folks here can't believe how Minnesota seemed content to rush 4 and play zone play after play. It was taylormade for Moore. 7 total blitzes. 7. And very little in the way of fake blitzes. Great job Mike.
@"Jor-El" said:But what are you comparing this defense to? It can't be the other NFL teams because this defense is consistently at the top under Zimmer. And it is again so far this year. I would say ranking in the top 5 between 2016-2018 would be considered a damn good defense lead by a defensive genius, no? I mean I'm sure you see the scores of other games. The Vikings are one of the best defenses in the NFL. That's it. Stop right there. The Vikings defense is averaging giving up 17.6 points per game and that's with a few garbage time scores (Falcons and Raiders). Yes, some teams are going to score more than that. It happens.Sure the defense should be credited for the times they made good stops.But I also think it's fair to hold the defense to a very high standard / expectaion- and then point out when they don't meet that expectation. Zimmer was hired to build a great defense and has been given every asset he wanted for that unit. It's amped up by hearing every announcer declare that he is a defensive genius. Another issue with defensive expectations is that this unit usually seems to be competent but schemed to play a "bend don't break" approach. Zimmer's defense rarely appears to be an attacking unit that can intimidate opponents and take over the momentum of a game. since Zimmer took over in 2014, we have not finished a season in the top 10 in interceptions, and never even in the top 20 for forced fumbles. We've had good sack stats but go for stretches without getting consistent pressure. How many defensive scores have Zimmer's units delivered?Truly dominating defensive units win games for their teams. When the Broncos won the SB a few years ago, they had games where they scored less than 20 points, sometimes including defensive scores. But we have a "defensive genius" and every loss is followed by blaming our offense.
They just beat the Redskins when the offense only scored 19. The defense is the reason that games against poor opponents go so well (multiple turnovers, great 3rd down conversion %, high 3-and-out rate). Isn't this moving the goal posts a bit? Now, it's not just that the defense has to be one of the best in the NFL, they have to be one of the historically great defenses year in and year out. Are we that spoiled?
Every team this defense has faced this year, except for the Lions, has been held under their scoring average. The defense was the main reason for at least 4 of the wins this year. If you want to go back to last year, off the top of my head, the defense was the main reason for wins agains SF (offense scored 17 and here's one of your defensive scores), Eagles (offense scored 17 and here's one of your defensive scores), Jets (I think the defense forced 4 turnovers) and Lions x2 (9 points each game). Go back to 2015-2017. The defense was a huge part of all of those wins also. Several where the offense didn't score 20.
It is the offense that's the problem. Either sustain drives (no 6 3-and-out games or multiple turnovers; think Chiefs, Bears and Packers this year and damn near every loss last year) or outscore these bad defenses. The rules favor the offense.
@"FSUVike" said:And SilverJoel I'll say it again. Green Bay leads the NFL in number of plays given up over 40 yards. That is not a good yardstick for this Defense.
Interestingly, Kansas City media pointed to the GB game as a reason why Moore would struggle against Minnesota. The Packers played straight vanilla Defense the whole game, something Defensive Guru Mike Zimmer would never do. They expected Double A gap looks and Harry faking and coming on blitzes to confuse Moore and were convinced he would struggle.
Instead, Zimmer was as vanilla as GB. Folks here can't believe how Minnesota seemed content to rush 4 and play zone play after play. It was taylormade for Moore. 7 total blitzes. 7. And very little in the way of fake blitzes. Great job Mike.
https://www.twitter.com/PFF_Chiefs/status/1191383459341713410Under pressure against the Vikings:
https://www.twitter.com/ChiefsReporter/status/1191378001814048773Keep in mind that the defense forced 2 fumbles by Moore, just didn't get them.
5 First Round Draft Picks. 2 Second Round Draft Picks. 2 Third Round Draft Picks. 7 contract extensions. Most of the Starters in place for the 3td straight year.
16th in Time of Possession. 25th in Pass Completion. 21st in Passing TDs. 17th in Rushing Yards per Attempt, despite being 7th in Rushing Attempts Against per game.
Yes, Cousins didn't play up to the level needed. The Defense didn't either. Longest TD run in Chiefs history. 2nd & 21 and they give up a 17 yard completion. 40 and 30 yard receptions by Hill. That's not good Defense no matter how you try to defend it.
@"FSUVike" said: 5 First Round Draft Picks. 2 Second Round Draft Picks. 2 Third Round Draft Picks. 7 contract extensions. Most of the Starters in place for the 3td straight year.16th in Time of Possession. 25th in Pass Completion. 21st in Passing TDs. 17th in Rushing Yards per Attempt, despite being 7th in Rushing Attempts Against per game.
Yes, Cousins didn't play up to the level needed. The Defense didn't either. Longest TD run in Chiefs history. 2nd & 21 and they give up a 17 yard completion. 40 and 30 yard receptions by Hill. That's not good Defense no matter how you try to defend it.
That's cherry picking. Like I mentioned, the D has only allowed 158 points, 5th best in the NFL. And since Zimmer has been here, the D has been straight up amazing. Its not even a debate. The problem is the offense has never been clutch. Minnesota could have won every game this year outside of the Bears with a few offensive plays when needed....and they've had time and possessions to do so.
There is ebb and flow to every NFL game. While the defense hasn't been perfect or to the level we are now used to as Viking's fans, its been more than good enough to win games. But the offense hasn't held up their end of the bargain. They wilt under the hot sun of pressurized situations. It's guaranteed. And the offensive line although better is still inconsistent. And I say all this believing that Minnesota will very likely miss the playoffs. Which is really something considering what they ponied up for Cousins. 2 years with Kirk = no playoff appearances.
Lots of good posts in this thread. Plenty of blame to go around for what looks like will be a 9 win season +/- 1
Injuries aside, this is why it's so damn hard to get a read on this team.
The scheme and coaching is deserved of scrutiny and I think we as fans are over-rating the quality of players on the roster.
Blue Chippers:
Dalvin
Thielen
Diggs
Kendricks
Barr
Hunter
No OL, No QB, No Secondary, No TE, 1 DL
Harrison Smith is in a long list of players either being used wrong, over their peak or not playing great. Griffen is starting his December swoon early this year.
For Jimmy, as for some reason if I reply to someone I get the huge gray streak.
Per
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201911030kan.htm?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#passing_advanced
Cousins had 13 bad throws for a percentage of 34.2 of his passes.
Trubisky's worse game, percentage wise, this year was the last game at 23.8% (5 bad throws). His most in a game this year was 11 at 20.4% against the Saints.
Now, because this is a sensitive subject, I'm not saying Cousins shouldn't ever have a bad throw or that he was the only reason for the loss. That's really bad though and was definitely a major factor.
Every part of the team was off.
So how do they get some mojo going in Dallas?
I'm a big critic of playing so much Zone but I kind of like it on Sunday night. Dak has always struck me as a 'see guy open throw ball' guy vs. a guy that will throw dudes open.
Rhodes/Waynes look incapable of covering Cooper. Not sure Hughes is ready to single up a legit #1 WR yet. So I kinda like Zone looks to confuse Dak.
But Zimmer MUST do more with his scheme at the LOS. That vanilla shit that didn't work against a banged up Chiefs Line is sure as hell not going to cut against Dallas's far better talent.
Smith is going to need to stay in the box to help with Zeke anyways. Might as well use him to mess with Dak even if he doesn't actually blitz. Might see some Mac Corner blitzes and A Gap stuff. This would also be a good time to see 4 DEs on 3rd and Long or have Barr at the LOS.
Stefanski needs to step it up too. Dallas has a better D-Line than Kansas City. I don't expect Dalvin to get untracked early. And Play Action doesn't exactly fool a Defense that doesn't respect the Run.
Maybe some quick hitters early? Underneath stuff on short routes. They have aggressive CBs and the LBs are crazy athletic but not necessarily great in coverage.
Gonna need to pass to open up the run. But I'd at least hand the ball off the 1st two plays even if Dallas stacks the box just to make sure the O-Line is truly at a disadvantage. 2nd series would be the time to start opening up the passing game with lots of short throws.
What do you folks think the plan of attack should be?
If Minnesota gets behind, which they will likely do without Joseph in the middle and they'll run the shit out of Zeke, that's the ball game. Vikings won't be able to do anything they want if they are behind 10+ points. And I have the feeling the TOP is going to favor Dallas big time. This has all the earmarks of an ugly SNF game.
@"StickyBun" said:@"FSUVike" said: 5 First Round Draft Picks. 2 Second Round Draft Picks. 2 Third Round Draft Picks. 7 contract extensions. Most of the Starters in place for the 3td straight year.16th in Time of Possession. 25th in Pass Completion. 21st in Passing TDs. 17th in Rushing Yards per Attempt, despite being 7th in Rushing Attempts Against per game.
Yes, Cousins didn't play up to the level needed. The Defense didn't either. Longest TD run in Chiefs history. 2nd & 21 and they give up a 17 yard completion. 40 and 30 yard receptions by Hill. That's not good Defense no matter how you try to defend it.
That's cherry picking. Like I mentioned, the D has only allowed 158 points, 5th best in the NFL. And since Zimmer has been here, the D has been straight up amazing. Its not even a debate. The problem is the offense has never been clutch. Minnesota could have won every game this year outside of the Bears with a few offensive plays when needed....and they've had time and possessions to do so.There is ebb and flow to every NFL game. While the defense hasn't been perfect or to the level we are now used to as Viking's fans, its been more than good enough to win games. But the offense hasn't held up their end of the bargain. They wilt under the hot sun of pressurized situations. It's guaranteed. And the offensive line although better is still inconsistent. And I say all this believing that Minnesota will very likely miss the playoffs. Which is really something considering what they ponied up for Cousins. 2 years with Kirk = no playoff appearances.
The defense does rank high in several categories and many people bring it up when they do not get the job done like against the Chiefs. Some folks even say things like "besides the one TD pass to Hill and the 91 yd TD run" the defense was great.
That is like saying "besides the pick 6 Cousins threw he played great". Many people who make this argument (not saying you have) would be crucifying Cousins for a pick 6.
Despite the defense's really good metrics, they are really really awful in must win games.
People can quote all the metrics they want but the only one important to me is how they do in win or go home games.
In 2017, they let Nick Foles throw for over 300 yards with 3 TDs and got shellacked 38-7 (7 points came because of the offense).
In 2018, they let the Bears dominate them going on 3 long scoring drives (2 in the first half when they were not tired) and run 37 times for 167 yards. They ended up losing and not making the playoffs. The offense was not good in this game but who really thought they would be after the first Bears game. No, this was a game the defense really needed to step up in give their best performance of the year.
Since Zimmer has been here, the defense is terrible in games they MUST win.
@"MarkSP18" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"FSUVike" said: 5 First Round Draft Picks. 2 Second Round Draft Picks. 2 Third Round Draft Picks. 7 contract extensions. Most of the Starters in place for the 3td straight year.16th in Time of Possession. 25th in Pass Completion. 21st in Passing TDs. 17th in Rushing Yards per Attempt, despite being 7th in Rushing Attempts Against per game.
Yes, Cousins didn't play up to the level needed. The Defense didn't either. Longest TD run in Chiefs history. 2nd & 21 and they give up a 17 yard completion. 40 and 30 yard receptions by Hill. That's not good Defense no matter how you try to defend it.
That's cherry picking. Like I mentioned, the D has only allowed 158 points, 5th best in the NFL. And since Zimmer has been here, the D has been straight up amazing. Its not even a debate. The problem is the offense has never been clutch. Minnesota could have won every game this year outside of the Bears with a few offensive plays when needed....and they've had time and possessions to do so.There is ebb and flow to every NFL game. While the defense hasn't been perfect or to the level we are now used to as Viking's fans, its been more than good enough to win games. But the offense hasn't held up their end of the bargain. They wilt under the hot sun of pressurized situations. It's guaranteed. And the offensive line although better is still inconsistent. And I say all this believing that Minnesota will very likely miss the playoffs. Which is really something considering what they ponied up for Cousins. 2 years with Kirk = no playoff appearances.
The defense does rank high in several categories and many people bring it up when they do not get the job done like against the Chiefs. Some folks even say things like "besides the one TD pass to Hill and the 91 yd TD run" the defense was great.
That is like saying "besides the pick 6 Cousins threw he played great". Many people who make this argument (not saying you have) would be crucifying Cousins for a pick 6.
Despite the defense's really good metrics, they are really really awful in must win games.
People can quote all the metrics they want but the only one important to me is how they do in win or go home games.
In 2017, they let Nick Foles throw for over 300 yards with 3 TDs and got shellacked 38-7 (7 points came because of the offense).
In 2018, they let the Bears dominate them going on 3 long scoring drives (2 in the first half when they were not tired) and run 37 times for 167 yards. They ended up losing and not making the playoffs. The offense was not good in this game but who really thought they would be after the first Bears game. No, this was a game the defense really needed to step up in give their best performance of the year.
Since Zimmer has been here, the defense is terrible in games they MUST win.
Not debating that at all. Totally agree. This team is horrible winning important games. In fact, they don't win them.
Dallas: Stack the box, make KC beat you...
For the Vikings? pass to set up the run - then play action the F out of them.
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