Can a leopard change his spots?

Wet, its a really good point and one the older I've gotten, the more that phrase makes sense in everyday life with people too: a leopard CANNOT change his spots. Especially when they are put to the task of overcoming adversity or consistently making good decisions. The hardwiring was done a long time ago.

Cousins will not be who many Viking's fans hoped he'd be: the guy. Cousins will play well again and then he won't. Wash, rinse and repeat. The sickening part is the team is loaded. 

You very well could be right...

As a fan, I have to remain optimistic this early in season 2. Wary? sure. Lesser expectations? Probably already happening subconsciously. 

I am unhappy the search for starting caliber QB of this franchise may very well continue after this year. Not convinced we let our future starter go in Bridgwater or Keenum. But that's a whole other thread lol!

@"StickyBun" said: Wet, its a really good point and one the older I've gotten, the more that phrase makes sense in everyday life with people too: a leopard CANNOT change his spots. Especially when they are put to the task of overcoming adversity or consistently making good decisions. The hardwiring was done a long time ago.

Cousins will not be who many Viking's fans hoped he'd be: the guy. Cousins will play well again and then he won't. Wash, rinse and repeat. The sickening part is the team is loaded. 

It’s sickening. Despite being down big to start the game, despite the refs and their usual Lambeau favoritism, this game was there for the taking. 

Until that INT in the 4th quarter, I had no major problems with Cousin's play yesterday.  Yes he fumbled getting sacked and his head-first slide almost lost another.  But the first INT is squarely on Diggs and his "sticky" hands.  He also lost a fumble and had several crucial drops that regrettably get reflected in Cousin's passing stats.  And the overthrow to Diggs happens to every QB, even the great Erin.

But we lost by 5 on the road in stadium world renowned for it's home cookin' after getting steamrolled by three TD's in the first quarter.  Baily cost us 3 points.  Diggs 1 via his childish penalty and Baily's extra long XP miss.  The refs took 6 from Diggs (7 if you think Baily would have hit the XP) and got Thielen with another phantom OPI in the end zone.  

But our main takeaway is Cousin's late 4th quarter boneheaded INT?  Sorry, this "loaded" roster needs to step up.

I liked the acquisitions of both Bradford and Cousins, but now I think it's the wrong approach to try to get a quarterback that another team has given up. Why would our management know the health or potential of these guys better than the management of the team that's been coaching and watching them? QB is so valuable in the NFL, we should always have grave doubts if a team is willing to hand over one that has had significant experience.

@"Ralphie" said: Until that INT in the 4th quarter, I had no major problems with Cousin's play yesterday.  Yes he fumbled getting sacked and his head-first slide almost lost another.  But the first INT is squarely on Diggs and his "sticky" hands.  He also lost a fumble and had several crucial drops that regrettably get reflected in Cousin's passing stats.  And the overthrow to Diggs happens to every QB, even the great Erin.

But we lost by 5 on the road in stadium world renowned for it's home cookin' after getting steamrolled by three TD's in the first quarter.  Baily cost us 3 points.  Diggs 1 via his childish penalty and Baily's extra long XP miss.  The refs took 6 from Diggs (7 if you think Baily would have hit the XP) and got Thielen with another phantom OPI in the end zone.  

But our main takeaway is Cousin's late 4th quarter boneheaded INT?  Sorry, this "loaded" roster needs to step up.

It wasn't just the late 4th quarter INT, Ralphie.  As you pointed out, he fumbled running for the 1st down...  luckily we recovered that one... but then on the same drive, he felt the backside pressure, tucked the ball in and STILL couldn't hold on to the football as he was being sacked.  You would think he would be a little more conscious about ball security after nearly losing one, but nope...  he also had two other near interceptions forcing the ball into tight coverage.

It was an ugly game by Cousins.  If it was just the late INT, that would be one thing.  But when you have 3 turnovers in a tight game and 2 out of the 3 are completely preventable...  it's an issue.  Especially for a guy with a history of making these kinds of mistakes to cost his teams ball games.  It's becoming an all too familiar pattern for him unfortunately.

@"Jor-El" said: I liked the acquisitions of both Bradford and Cousins, but now I think it's the wrong approach to try to get a quarterback that another team has given up. Why would our management know the health or potential of these guys better than the management of the team that's been coaching and watching them? QB is so valuable in the NFL, we should always have grave doubts if a team is willing to hand over one that has had significant experience.

This is a great point and I agree with all of it. There's only one way to get a franchise QB and that's through the draft. Then you have to DEVELOP him. Cater the entire offense around that QB so that you know you tried everything to make it work.
We drafted a potential franchise QB in Teddy Bridgewater a few years ago but we had Adrian Peterson, so the offense went through him. That was great in the short-term but looking back, it was a mistake. The Cowboys did the exact same thing the past few years with Dak/Zeke. Now they have a new OC and Dak (through only 2 weeks) looks the best he ever has. I'm not saying Teddy is Dak. But the Vikings need to draft a QB and go all-in on supporting him. We change offensive coordinators every year anyway, so it shouldn't be hard.

@"pattersaur" said:

@"Jor-El" said: I liked the acquisitions of both Bradford and Cousins, but now I think it's the wrong approach to try to get a quarterback that another team has given up. Why would our management know the health or potential of these guys better than the management of the team that's been coaching and watching them? QB is so valuable in the NFL, we should always have grave doubts if a team is willing to hand over one that has had significant experience.

This is a great point and I agree with all of it. There's only one way to get a franchise QB and that's through the draft. 

I think you can kind of get a leopard to change his spots,
but not a lot.  That said, we got Kirk
knowing who he was and that we’d have to build a team around him, and being
pressured 60% of the time, while having every good thing he does nullified by
receivers or OPI is not building around him. 
I don’t think you’re ever going to get rid of the fumbles, but I should
hope that better pass protection should shift the outcome of several games, and
hopefully you can get him to get rid of those horrible decision making interceptions
where he’s throwing into triple coverage of an unstable platform.

The only correct answer is we just don't know yet. There are a lot of declarative statements being made right now that I've heard before. For years, it was said that John Elway couldn't win the big one. Until he did 14 years into his career. And then he won back to back Super Bowl. 

Cousins is going to have good games and he's going to have bad games in the remainder of the season. And the balance of that will determine whether we draft a QB in the 1st round next spring. But two things I know for certain: Yesterday's game, by itself, will not determine that. And Cousins will be our QB next season. 

@"medaille" said: I think you can kind of get a leopard to change his spots, but not a lot.  That said, we got Kirk knowing who he was and that we’d have to build a team around him, and being pressured 60% of the time, while having every good thing he does nullified by receivers or OPI is not building around him.  I don’t think you’re ever going to get rid of the fumbles, but I should hope that better pass protection should shift the outcome of several games, and hopefully you can get him to get rid of those horrible decision making interceptions where he’s throwing into triple coverage of an unstable platform.

Agree.  He needs to understand the team a bit better.  We were running at will, no need to force the pass in the endzone.  No need to be the hero.
One thing that I have seen pinned on Cousins tho was the overthrow to Diggs in the 4th.  IMO that was all on diggs.  I think he started to quit on the route until he saw the ball coming his way.  There was a moment of hesitation that probably could have accounted for that step he needed to catch that bomb.  That would have been huge.

Couple of things; some franchises go through protracted stretches of awful management. To say you can't get a good FA QB is ignoring how stupid the FO of teams like the Raiders, Browns, and yes, the Skins have been for the last 5+ years. Not saying  KC is the guy we hoped for but to say you can't get a Franchise QB in FA is simply not true.

Also, why the f did Stefanski throw the ball on the that game - killing INT?

I've been reading articles all morning and while folks are certainly crushing Kirk for his performance Stefanski is also drawing a lot of criticism, and rightfully so. He got too cute a few times and it really coat the team.

@"FSUVike" said: Couple of things; some franchises go through protracted stretches of awful management. To say you can't get a good FA QB is ignoring how stupid the FO of teams like the Raiders, Browns, and yes, the Skins have been for the last 5+ years. Not saying  KC is the guy we hoped for but to say you can't get a Franchise QB in FA is simply not true.

Also, why the f did Stefanski throw the ball on the that game - killing INT?

I've been reading articles all morning and while folks are certainly crushing Kirk for his performance Stefanski is also drawing a lot of criticism, and rightfully so. He got too cute a few times and it really coat the team.

1st and goal is always a good time to play-action pass to get an easy score if the defense is playing the run hard.

The offensive coordinator shouldn't have to protect his veteran QB by running it 3 times...  And he should expect his veteran QB to throw it away if his first two reads are covered.  Not force a throw that isn't there.

@"FSUVike" said: Couple of things; some franchises go through protracted stretches of awful management. To say you can't get a good FA QB is ignoring how stupid the FO of teams like the Raiders, Browns, and yes, the Skins have been for the last 5+ years. Not saying  KC is the guy we hoped for but to say you can't get a Franchise QB in FA is simply not true.

Also, why the f did Stefanski throw the ball on the that game - killing INT?

I've been reading articles all morning and while folks are certainly crushing Kirk for his performance Stefanski is also drawing a lot of criticism, and rightfully so. He got too cute a few times and it really coat the team.

Couple weeks ago, when asked by a reporter whether he wanted to run the ball more, pass more, be balanced, etc. Stefanski said more than anything he wanted to "unpredictable." And that's typically a good thing. All game long I sensed Stefanski using this game to achieve more balance. If you can pull up the passing game and make that an equal threat, then it makes everything much easier down the road. That's what this game was supposed to do and it didn't work. As a result, next week Oakland will load the box and force Cousins to beat them. He'll have to do it or else the game plan for the Bears the following week (and all other opponents) will be written. 

I know everyone expected a run right there. Even my neighbors who could hear some maniac screaming 'RUN THE FUCKING BALL!" But if it's complete, nobody says a word. Bottom line is you have to expect your veteran QB will not throw into coverage like that. 

@"FSUVike" said: Couple of things; some franchises go through protracted stretches of awful management. To say you can't get a good FA QB is ignoring how stupid the FO of teams like the Raiders, Browns, and yes, the Skins have been for the last 5+ years. Not saying  KC is the guy we hoped for but to say you can't get a Franchise QB in FA is simply not true.

Also, why the f did Stefanski throw the ball on the that game - killing INT?

I've been reading articles all morning and while folks are certainly crushing Kirk for his performance Stefanski is also drawing a lot of criticism, and rightfully so. He got too cute a few times and it really coat the team.

There are bad FOs and bad decisions made, but even so, how many already-established QBs have ever changed teams and gone on to success - even from the Browns or Raiders? I don't recall the Browns sending anyone a franchise quarterback, and even Jon Gruden didn't ship Derek Carr away.
Exclude cases like Jim Plunkett succeeding with the Raiders, and similar reclamation cases, and also teams trading unproven prospect QBs like Brett Favre. The success stories in recent history are Drew Brees and Payton Manning. I might exclude Manning because he was 36 and considered a medical risk by many teams. Before that, the last case was...Fran Tarkenton? 

Hmmm. National media is talking about how gassed and ready to throw in the towel the Packers Defense was so why pass it there. Meanwhile, Vikings fans can only see the horrible throw. Interesting.

@"FSUVike" said: Hmmm. National media is talking about how gassed and ready to throw in the towel the Packers Defense was so why pass it there. Meanwhile, Vikings fans can only see the horrible throw. Interesting.

You can question play calls until you're in a padded cell. I'm only saying that Stefanski was trying to be balanced and unpredictable. Good decision? Bad decision? Debatable. But I get it. One thing, however, that is not debatable is that Cousins' throw into coverage was a bad decision. 

Cousins was brought in as another "Game Manager".  Look at the first game against the Falcons, up 28 points in the 3rd quarter Cousins didn't need to take any risks and attempted only 10 passes.  Against the Packer down 21 points after the first quarter, he was put in a position he had to take risks and made boner mistakes.  The fumbles, bad passes and the interceptions.  He's not and will never be the "Comeback Kid".

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"FSUVike" said: Couple of things; some franchises go through protracted stretches of awful management. To say you can't get a good FA QB is ignoring how stupid the FO of teams like the Raiders, Browns, and yes, the Skins have been for the last 5+ years. Not saying  KC is the guy we hoped for but to say you can't get a Franchise QB in FA is simply not true.

Also, why the f did Stefanski throw the ball on the that game - killing INT?

I've been reading articles all morning and while folks are certainly crushing Kirk for his performance Stefanski is also drawing a lot of criticism, and rightfully so. He got too cute a few times and it really coat the team.

Couple weeks ago, when asked by a reporter whether he wanted to run the ball more, pass more, be balanced, etc. Stefanski said more than anything he wanted to "unpredictable." And that's typically a good thing. All game long I sensed Stefanski using this game to achieve more balance. If you can pull up the passing game and make that an equal threat, then it makes everything much easier down the road. That's what this game was supposed to do and it didn't work. As a result, next week Oakland will load the box and force Cousins to beat them. He'll have to do it or else the game plan for the Bears the following week (and all other opponents) will be written. 

I know everyone expected a run right there. Even my neighbors who could hear some maniac screaming 'RUN THE FUCKING BALL!" But if it's complete, nobody says a word. Bottom line is you have to expect your veteran QB will not throw into coverage like that. 

@"ArizonaViking" said: Cousins was brought in as another "Game Manager".  Look at the first game against the Falcons, up 28 points in the 3rd quarter Cousins didn't need to take any risks and attempted only 10 passes.  Against the Packer down 21 points after the first quarter, he was put in a position he had to take risks and made boner mistakes.  The fumbles, bad passes and the interceptions.  He's not and will never be the "Comeback Kid".

I disagree with the first half of your premise - the Vikings had determined that they needed more than a game manager, way back before the 2016 season when we heard that Bridgewater was going to take a step forward and throw the ball much more. The 2015 playoff loss showed that we needed to be able to score points, even if our defense was stifling (and also that we could not score all our points via FG). We'll never know if Bridgewater would have progressed, but when he was hurt, we already had a decent "Game Manager" in Sean Hill, but they burned draft capital to get a QB, Sam Bradford, who was supposed to be able to carry the team with his arm when needed. Even the 2017 playoff experience showed that this team needed a passing game that could play catchup if needed  - as we did (sorta, with luck) against the Saints after Zimmer's defense collapsed, and then could not keep up with the Eagles.
Cousins was signed to be a QB who can elevate this team with his passing. You can get a game manager more easily and for less money. After last season, it may be that Zimmer is back to wanting just a "game manager" - but then he better have an airtight defense that holds opponents under 14 points every game. This defense is good but way too streaky for that expectation.
I think Zimmer wants a QB that can sit back and just handoff if it's an easier opponent and all goes well - but then he wants to be able to dial up a high-octane passing game to save the day if needed. I really don't think Cousins is that guy, and I'm not sure any QB can switch into pass-heavy mode if that's not the team's normal approach. It seems like Zimmer wants Dalvin Cook to be his starting pitcher and Kirk Cousins as a relief pitcher.