OT: WSJ: Middle Class deeply into debt

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

we've done the same thing..  although I did tell my kids I wasnt paying for dreams.  I offered them both a degree in a field that they were interested in as long as that field showed both need and  decent compensation.  My daughter chose health care and is an RN making over 50k a year less than 6 months out, and my son chose the trades and is working in the refrigeration and HVAC industry,  neither of them will ever make 6 figures with these degrees,  but they are both somewhat recession proof and not likely to be replaced by technology any time soon.  I also told them both out of HS that they dont have to make a career out of the education that I pay for,  but it will provide them a decent living while they work on what ever other degrees they may choose to pursue.

A college degree and a half a beef annually... what else could a kid want?

@"AGRforever" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

The reason college cost has exploded is because the government (not one party or the other) (high school admin) told everyone for the past +30 years they had to go to college or they were stupid.  Then we gave these same students UNLIMITED access to funds guaranteed by none other then .gov.  Of course the colleges are going to increase in cost when they have an endless increase in students with out a clue what they're actually paying for when they sign on the dotted line.  Now days a 4 year degree is nothing more then a hunting licensee.  You have a license to hunt for a job.  Most wont land that big buck, they're going to get some one because the job market it flooded with a million other kids with the same BS business degree.

I'd love to give my kids debt free college and our career trajectory "probably" will allow us to do so but by the time my 8 year old is there what is it going to cost?  Double?  Triple?  Quadruple today?  When is enough enough when it comes to cost?
Out local D1 university can't stop buying land and building buildings because they're so flush with cash they don't care and we're a little school in TN tech.  They're actually competing with the medical industry here because both have snatched up all the real estate between each other and they're now fighting for it. 

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

we've done the same thing..  although I did tell my kids I wasnt paying for dreams.  I offered them both a degree in a field that they were interested in as long as that field showed both need and  decent compensation.  My daughter chose health care and is an RN making over 50k a year less than 6 months out, and my son chose the trades and is working in the refrigeration and HVAC industry,  neither of them will ever make 6 figures with these degrees,  but they are both somewhat recession proof and not likely to be replaced by technology any time soon.  I also told them both out of HS that they dont have to make a career out of the education that I pay for,  but it will provide them a decent living while they work on what ever other degrees they may choose to pursue.

A college degree and a half a beef annually... what else could a kid want?

Good stuff. I explained a similar deal to our son: we'll pay, you'll need to study hard and we aren't talking 5.5 years to get a degree either. He got a bachelor of science in Physics in 4 years with a partial scholarship he maintained grade-wise that paid for a 1/4th of the costs each year. Did undergrad research that paid $10.50 an hour to pay for whatever he wanted outside school costs. He's a software engineer and has been making $100k since he's been 23 years old (25 now). Still drives the same car he had in high school at 17 years old. Good head on his shoulders, don't have to worry about that boy at all. 

He's missing out on the half a beef annually deal however! He'd like that.  =)

@"StickyBun" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

The reason college cost has exploded is because the government (not one party or the other) (high school admin) told everyone for the past +30 years they had to go to college or they were stupid.  Then we gave these same students UNLIMITED access to funds guaranteed by none other then .gov.  Of course the colleges are going to increase in cost when they have an endless increase in students with out a clue what they're actually paying for when they sign on the dotted line.  Now days a 4 year degree is nothing more then a hunting licensee.  You have a license to hunt for a job.  Most wont land that big buck, they're going to get some one because the job market it flooded with a million other kids with the same BS business degree.

I'd love to give my kids debt free college and our career trajectory "probably" will allow us to do so but by the time my 8 year old is there what is it going to cost?  Double?  Triple?  Quadruple today?  When is enough enough when it comes to cost?
Out local D1 university can't stop buying land and building buildings because they're so flush with cash they don't care and we're a little school in TN tech.  They're actually competing with the medical industry here because both have snatched up all the real estate between each other and they're now fighting for it. 

Do you live in Cookeville?

@"A1Janitor" said: Car prices are absurd. 

People should boycott buying new until they fix the bullshit.  

I am thankful that my daughter has relatively low debt finishing her bachelor degree and my son gets a free ride at USNA. 

I used to be all for used cars and then cash for clunkers happened. We've actually bought new because when I look at the price drop from new to used and factor in a life expectancy in miles on the car itself by the time you account for mileage, tires, other maintenance items and mechanical things I'd rather not have someone else's problems.  We had purchased a used van with 50K on it and that thing had so many mechanical issues that we could just never get right that its made me leery to purchase a used car again. 

From a mathematical standpoint when we bought our new Sienna  it was within $2500 on a $40k van that all we would be doing by buying a used one is deducting miles for dollars.  

I bought a corolla before that and it was much closer.  It was essentially the same price if you gave the car a 250k mile life expectancy.  On top of that the IRS lets us deduct mileage for my work so if I can get it to 250K or more they're essentially buying my car for me. 

@"AGRforever" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

The reason college cost has exploded is because the government (not one party or the other) (high school admin) told everyone for the past +30 years they had to go to college or they were stupid.  Then we gave these same students UNLIMITED access to funds guaranteed by none other then .gov.  Of course the colleges are going to increase in cost when they have an endless increase in students with out a clue what they're actually paying for when they sign on the dotted line.  Now days a 4 year degree is nothing more then a hunting licensee.  You have a license to hunt for a job.  Most wont land that big buck, they're going to get some one because the job market it flooded with a million other kids with the same BS business degree.

I'd love to give my kids debt free college and our career trajectory "probably" will allow us to do so but by the time my 8 year old is there what is it going to cost?  Double?  Triple?  Quadruple today?  When is enough enough when it comes to cost?
Out local D1 university can't stop buying land and building buildings because they're so flush with cash they don't care and we're a little school in TN tech.  They're actually competing with the medical industry here because both have snatched up all the real estate between each other and they're now fighting for it. 

Do you live in Cookeville?

Yes...well Baxter

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

we've done the same thing..  although I did tell my kids I wasnt paying for dreams.  I offered them both a degree in a field that they were interested in as long as that field showed both need and  decent compensation.  My daughter chose health care and is an RN making over 50k a year less than 6 months out, and my son chose the trades and is working in the refrigeration and HVAC industry,  neither of them will ever make 6 figures with these degrees,  but they are both somewhat recession proof and not likely to be replaced by technology any time soon.  I also told them both out of HS that they dont have to make a career out of the education that I pay for,  but it will provide them a decent living while they work on what ever other degrees they may choose to pursue.

A college degree and a half a beef annually... what else could a kid want?

Good stuff. I explained a similar deal to our son: we'll pay, you'll need to study hard and we aren't talking 5.5 years to get a degree either. He got a bachelor of science in Physics in 4 years with a partial scholarship he maintained grade-wise that paid for a 1/4th of the costs each year. Did undergrad research that paid $10.50 an hour to pay for whatever he wanted outside school costs. He's a software engineer and has been making $100k since he's been 23 years old (25 now). Still drives the same car he had in high school at 17 years old. Good head on his shoulders, don't have to worry about that boy at all. 

He's missing out on the half a beef annually deal however! He'd like that.  =)

@"mjollnir_k" said: Really though full size Pickup Trucks and SUV's are a luxury for well over 75% of the population.  Very few actually need them in there family but a Suburban is the ultimate Soccer Mom status symbol and the 3/4 Crew Cabs are the ultimate compensation tool.  And before you say anything I have both.  

What is truly interesting is if you want a new Pickup you can configure one for about $35,000.  It has no comfort features but nobody seems to want to give up those comforts.  Also while not as prevalent after the housing crash how many late 20's early 30 years olds did you see newly married with a new house, 2 new cars, new camper, boat and a was making interest only payments. That screwed a lot of people.  But most came out of college expecting that stuff.

You want to really see how screwed up things are look at the farmer and his plight.  Buys retail sells whole sale pays taxes both ways and has not really seen a increase in crop prices while inputs have gone wild.   

and if you want a shitty education I am sure you can get one of those for $99 online,  or if you want to live in a shit neighborhood in a cracker jack box house those are really affordable as well.  things like AC and an adjustable seat just make life a little more worth living.  like I said above,  the same truck jumped about $30k in less than 15 years.

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

We did the next best thing. Private school K-12. First two years, $3500. Next 9, $7000, last 2, $14000. They got tons of scholarship money, and debt they paid off in 4 years. 

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

I always told my kids that our job as their parents was to get them to adulthood. After that, they were responsible for college, and we’d help them as best we could. My two oldest kids were ranked very high in High School, one is on the Academic Wall of Fame there.  My oldest went off to a private school for a year, then the local school for a year, then another local school. Ended up, she didn’t really know what she wanted, so she ended up in a Pharmacy Tech program and got certified. She then moved to Indianapolis and got a job, then another with Riley Children’s Hospital. She is doing alright. My oldest son had a full ride to Purdue, went for a year and came home with very few earned credits. Went to a local school during the summer to earn enough credits to keep his scholarship. Quit going and told us he didn’t like college. I told him that was fine, after trying to make him understand the value of that scholarship, but he needed to be an adult and get a full time job. He ended up working full time at a quick oil change place and then came home one day and said he had applied to be an apprentice at the local IBEW Union. It is tough to get into, we thought he was just doing it to buy some time. Low and behold he got in, and is in his second year. Loves doing what he is doing and will top out making very good money in 3 more years. My youngest just started going to a local college and eventually wants to become a Youth Pastor. We will see how that goes for him. 

Having said all of that, I am glad I had decided that they should be responsible for their own schooling. The two oldest didn’t really want to go, they just thought it was what they were supposed to do.
But, in the long run ended up where they want to be. I think we put a lot on an 18 year old when we ask them to chose what they want to be when they grow up.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

we've done the same thing..  although I did tell my kids I wasnt paying for dreams.  I offered them both a degree in a field that they were interested in as long as that field showed both need and  decent compensation.  My daughter chose health care and is an RN making over 50k a year less than 6 months out, and my son chose the trades and is working in the refrigeration and HVAC industry,  neither of them will ever make 6 figures with these degrees,  but they are both somewhat recession proof and not likely to be replaced by technology any time soon.  I also told them both out of HS that they dont have to make a career out of the education that I pay for,  but it will provide them a decent living while they work on what ever other degrees they may choose to pursue.

A college degree and a half a beef annually... what else could a kid want?

@"Riphawkins" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

I always told my kids that our job as their parents was to get them to adulthood. After that, they were responsible for college, and we’d help them as best we could. My two oldest kids were ranked very high in High School, one is on the Academic Wall of Fame there.  My oldest went off to a private school for a year, then the local school for a year, then another local school. Ended up, she didn’t really know what she wanted, so she ended up in a Pharmacy Tech program and got certified. She then moved to Indianapolis and got a job, then another with Riley Children’s Hospital. She is doing alright. My oldest son had a full ride to Purdue, went for a year and came home with very few earned credits. Went to a local school during the summer to earn enough credits to keep his scholarship. Quit going and told us he didn’t like college. I told him that was fine, after trying to make him understand the value of that scholarship, but he needed to be an adult and get a full time job. He ended up working full time at a quick oil change place and then came home one day and said he had applied to be an apprentice at the local IBEW Union. It is tough to get into, we thought he was just doing it to buy some time. Low and behold he got in, and is in his second year. Loves doing what he is doing and will top out making very good money in 3 more years. My youngest just started going to a local college and eventually wants to become a Youth Pastor. We will see how that goes for him. 

Having said all of that, I am glad I had decided that they should be responsible for their own schooling. The two oldest didn’t really want to go, they just thought it was what they were supposed to do.
But, in the long run ended up where they want to be. I think we put a lot on an 18 year old when we ask them to chose what they want to be when they grow up.

@"StickyBun" said:

@"Riphawkins" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Best gift my wife and I could give our son was a debt-free college education: he won't have to deal with that financial anchor. Not everyone can do that, I know,  and I do feel for these kids that are saddled with that kind of debt, specifically if they don't graduate into higher paying jobs. 

I always told my kids that our job as their parents was to get them to adulthood. After that, they were responsible for college, and we’d help them as best we could. My two oldest kids were ranked very high in High School, one is on the Academic Wall of Fame there.  My oldest went off to a private school for a year, then the local school for a year, then another local school. Ended up, she didn’t really know what she wanted, so she ended up in a Pharmacy Tech program and got certified. She then moved to Indianapolis and got a job, then another with Riley Children’s Hospital. She is doing alright. My oldest son had a full ride to Purdue, went for a year and came home with very few earned credits. Went to a local school during the summer to earn enough credits to keep his scholarship. Quit going and told us he didn’t like college. I told him that was fine, after trying to make him understand the value of that scholarship, but he needed to be an adult and get a full time job. He ended up working full time at a quick oil change place and then came home one day and said he had applied to be an apprentice at the local IBEW Union. It is tough to get into, we thought he was just doing it to buy some time. Low and behold he got in, and is in his second year. Loves doing what he is doing and will top out making very good money in 3 more years. My youngest just started going to a local college and eventually wants to become a Youth Pastor. We will see how that goes for him. 

Having said all of that, I am glad I had decided that they should be responsible for their own schooling. The two oldest didn’t really want to go, they just thought it was what they were supposed to do.
But, in the long run ended up where they want to be. I think we put a lot on an 18 year old when we ask them to chose what they want to be when they grow up.

Great story, Rip. Yep, college certainly isn't for every kid. There are other paths to be successful. With my son, he's an academic type and focused. I was fairly certain he wasn't going to party away his college time and not graduate with a STEM degree. He started out his freshman year thinking he wanted Chemistry but quickly changed to Physics. But you bring up a really good point: its tough if you decide to pay for your kid's college and 2 years in, they haven't studied, messed around and then quit. Now you've just paid a lot of money for nothing. And that happens a ton. My son picked his spots to party and have fun, but you can't mess around too much and get a degree in Physics in 4 years. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"mjollnir_k" said: Really though full size Pickup Trucks and SUV's are a luxury for well over 75% of the population.  Very few actually need them in there family but a Suburban is the ultimate Soccer Mom status symbol and the 3/4 Crew Cabs are the ultimate compensation tool.  And before you say anything I have both.  

What is truly interesting is if you want a new Pickup you can configure one for about $35,000.  It has no comfort features but nobody seems to want to give up those comforts.  Also while not as prevalent after the housing crash how many late 20's early 30 years olds did you see newly married with a new house, 2 new cars, new camper, boat and a was making interest only payments. That screwed a lot of people.  But most came out of college expecting that stuff.

You want to really see how screwed up things are look at the farmer and his plight.  Buys retail sells whole sale pays taxes both ways and has not really seen a increase in crop prices while inputs have gone wild.   

and if you want a shitty education I am sure you can get one of those for $99 online,  or if you want to live in a shit neighborhood in a cracker jack box house those are really affordable as well.  things like AC and an adjustable seat just make life a little more worth living.  like I said above,  the same truck jumped about $30k in less than 15 years.

You also have to remember there are other factors with cars and trucks.   They are made so much better than they were 5-10-20-40 years ago.   They last so much longer, don't rust nearly as much as they used to and with all of the extended warranties, free oil changes etc. that come with buying a new vehicle they are better taken care of than they were in the past.   Buy a new vehicle and you literally get notices when you oil life gets low.   You have dealers who will send someone to pick up, service, and return your vehicle while you are at work!  A really good friend of mine owned a Jiffy Lube told me what the manufacturers and dealers were doing with 3 to 5 free oil changes when you buy a new car was killing his business.   Lets also not discount the Obama's administration "Cash for Clunkers" program which took a HUGE number of older albeit still fine running cars out of circulation, hence making even newer used vehicles more expensive.

If you have 3+ years of experience programming PLCs for industrial equipment you can easily make $80k. Don't need a degree. And that's just one example of many great paying jobs in Manufacturing & Distribution.

Frankly, we've let ourselves down as a society thinking all of our kids need degrees. Now there's no Shop Class in High School. And Accounting, IT, etc. programs at Colleges around the country are packed full with students who won't be able to find work in those fields when they graduate.

@"FSUVike" said: If you have 3+ years of experience programming PLCs for industrial equipment you can easily make $80k. Don't need a degree. And that's just one example of many great paying jobs in Manufacturing & Distribution.

Frankly, we've let ourselves down as a society thinking all of our kids need degrees. Now there's no Shop Class in High School. And Accounting, IT, etc. programs at Colleges around the country are packed full with students who won't be able to find work in those fields when they graduate.

Agreed, but here's a caveat: there are trade jobs out there, nice blue collar opportunities, and today's millennials don't want them for the most part. I'll give you an example: a friend of mine is a utility lineman for a county in mid-Michigan. He started a mentorship/apprentice program every year where he takes 4 younger kids, fresh grads from high school, gives them a job where they apprentice for 2 years and learn and then get to be full time lineman. Good job, good pay and good benefits. No college degree necessary. Not only does he have a hell of a time finding 4 kids to do this, 2 will quit after their first paycheck and one other will quit after one month. Every time. They don't want to work. Its not glamorous enough. Its highly frustrating. Not saying all millennials, but some of them. I think you can also ask other people that do similar things and get a similar answer unfortunately.

@"mjollnir_k" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"mjollnir_k" said: Really though full size Pickup Trucks and SUV's are a luxury for well over 75% of the population.  Very few actually need them in there family but a Suburban is the ultimate Soccer Mom status symbol and the 3/4 Crew Cabs are the ultimate compensation tool.  And before you say anything I have both.  

What is truly interesting is if you want a new Pickup you can configure one for about $35,000.  It has no comfort features but nobody seems to want to give up those comforts.  Also while not as prevalent after the housing crash how many late 20's early 30 years olds did you see newly married with a new house, 2 new cars, new camper, boat and a was making interest only payments. That screwed a lot of people.  But most came out of college expecting that stuff.

You want to really see how screwed up things are look at the farmer and his plight.  Buys retail sells whole sale pays taxes both ways and has not really seen a increase in crop prices while inputs have gone wild.   

and if you want a shitty education I am sure you can get one of those for $99 online,  or if you want to live in a shit neighborhood in a cracker jack box house those are really affordable as well.  things like AC and an adjustable seat just make life a little more worth living.  like I said above,  the same truck jumped about $30k in less than 15 years.

Truck I spec'd out had Air, power window and adjustable seats,  what it did not have was all the electronics, leather and other crap that goes bad.  

Chevy 3/4 ton 4 door WT for the local Fire Department.  There were some rebates and other stuff but going online right now I can easily configure for about $40 K before dealing.

@"mjollnir_k" said: Chevy 3/4 ton 4 door WT for the local Fire Department.  There were some rebates and other stuff but going online right now I can easily configure for about $40 K before dealing.

4wheel or 2?  thats not a bad price for a crew cab 3/4 ton.  significantly less than what I would find around here.