ARE THE VIKINGS IN A QUARTERBACK TRAP?
The Quarterback Trap doesn't kill a team outright. It just chokes out the team's options and margins for error, leaving it to slowly suffocate under its own attempted solutions.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2837179-minnesota-vikings-are-desperate-to-escape-the-nfls-worst-quarterback-trap
@"JimmyinSD" said:I was actually shocked at how good he was. I wasn't expecting that. There were times early on where he was just spectacular....@"StickyBun" said:i dont think there are too many that are going to say its on Cousins. He had a few WTF moments last year, but the shell shocking he took at times from opposing defenses getting home quickly, without having to bring more than 4, was certainly an indicator of where the failure was stemming from. As far as players wasting players in their prime as well as cap space... again that could be said about a lot of players on the team if they arent going be able to protect better and run the ball more efficiently early in the games.@"JimmyinSD" said:There's just one guy that has a fully guaranteed contract, the first of its kind in NFL history. Some fans may not want to admit it, but the Cousins signing is teetering on the precipice of full blown failure....and a chunk isn't Cousins' fault. No excuses this season.@"StickyBun" said: p.s. If the Viking's offensive line is putrid AGAIN this season, what a colossal waste of cap money and Cousins's prime years. that could be said about many of the teams players. I cant recall when the team ever had so many quality players in their prime at the same time since the early years....and then he wasn't. I don't have the resources to know why, but that's my prevailing concern: is there merit to this big-game, big-moment tendency to fail? I don't know, maybe. I do have the benefit and perspective of being old, and so I remember all of those coaches, players, etc. who were said to be afflicted by the same thing...until they weren't. Elway was one. "Can't win the big one..." Until he did. So we'll see.
My reason for optimism isn't as much about Cousins or a better cast of offensive linemen. It's about doing what we needed to do a long time ago. And that's get rid of this half-power, half-zone, half-ass blocking scheme run by a half-ass coordinator who may or may not know what the hell he's doing, and very clearly wanted to play Chiefs and Rams football instead of Zimmer football.
A lot of us said it last year. Everything was in place. The only question mark was our new OC. Does he have a feel for calling plays? That's a talent even some of the most brilliant minds struggle with. The answer was a very definite no.
There are still questions (how do Stef and Kubiak co-exist?), but at least we know what we are. We're an outsize zone team with two outside zone runners, outside zone blockers and a play action QB who came from this offense. And we're going to run the fuck out of the football.
That, more than anything, will help us answer the questions about Cousins.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:I was actually shocked at how good he was. I wasn't expecting that. There were times early on where he was just spectacular....@"StickyBun" said:i dont think there are too many that are going to say its on Cousins. He had a few WTF moments last year, but the shell shocking he took at times from opposing defenses getting home quickly, without having to bring more than 4, was certainly an indicator of where the failure was stemming from. As far as players wasting players in their prime as well as cap space... again that could be said about a lot of players on the team if they arent going be able to protect better and run the ball more efficiently early in the games.@"JimmyinSD" said:There's just one guy that has a fully guaranteed contract, the first of its kind in NFL history. Some fans may not want to admit it, but the Cousins signing is teetering on the precipice of full blown failure....and a chunk isn't Cousins' fault. No excuses this season.@"StickyBun" said: p.s. If the Viking's offensive line is putrid AGAIN this season, what a colossal waste of cap money and Cousins's prime years. that could be said about many of the teams players. I cant recall when the team ever had so many quality players in their prime at the same time since the early years....and then he wasn't. I don't have the resources to know why, but that's my prevailing concern: is there merit to this big-game, big-moment tendency to fail? I don't know, maybe. I do have the benefit and perspective of being old, and so I remember all of those coaches, players, etc. who were said to be afflicted by the same thing...until they weren't. Elway was one. "Can't win the big one..." Until he did. So we'll see.
My reason for optimism isn't as much about Cousins or a better cast of offensive linemen. It's about doing what we needed to do a long time ago. And that's get rid of this half-power, half-zone, half-ass blocking scheme run by a half-ass coordinator who may or may not know what the hell he's doing, and very clearly wanted to play Chiefs and Rams football instead of Zimmer football.
A lot of us said it last year. Everything was in place. The only question mark was our new OC. Does he have a feel for calling plays? That's a talent even some of the most brilliant minds struggle with. The answer was a very definite no.
There are still questions (how do Stef and Kubiak co-exist?), but at least we know what we are. We're an outsize zone team with two outside zone runners, outside zone blockers and a play action QB who came from this offense. And we're going to run the fuck out of the football.
That, more than anything, will help us answer the questions about Cousins.
Big difference between the question marks of last season and this season. Kubiak/Dennison have been there and done that. I agree MB, at least we have a plan to run the damn ball. And a QB that excels off the play action.
I kinda refuse to be compared with Dan Snyder dumpster fires. Since he bought the foreskins Redskins, they've found essentially every way to champion mediocrity possible. If Cousins will be judged by his record there, then it's fair to also consider a team that's been basically midpack since their last SB win in 1992.
@"MaroonBells" said:I was actually shocked at how good he was. I wasn't expecting that. There were times early on where he was just spectacular....
...and then he wasn't. I don't have the resources to know why, but that's my prevailing concern: is there merit to this big-game, big-moment tendency to fail? I don't know, maybe. I do have the benefit and perspective of being old, and so I remember all of those coaches, players, etc. who were said to be afflicted by the same thing...until they weren't. Elway was one. "Can't win the big one..." Until he did. So we'll see.
My reason for optimism isn't as much about Cousins or a better cast of offensive linemen. It's about doing what we needed to do a long time ago. And that's get rid of this half-power, half-zone, half-ass blocking scheme run by a half-ass coordinator who may or may not know what the hell he's doing, and very clearly wanted to play Chiefs and Rams football instead of Zimmer football.
A lot of us said it last year. Everything was in place. The only question mark was our new OC. Does he have a feel for calling plays? That's a talent even some of the most brilliant minds struggle with. The answer was a very definite no.
There are still questions (how do Stef and Kubiak co-exist?), but at least we know what we are. We're an outsize zone team with two outside zone runners, outside zone blockers and a play action QB who came from this offense. And we're going to run the fuck out of the football.
That, more than anything, will help us answer the questions about Cousins.
The only thing you forgot was the "BOOM" at the end... :-D
Totally agree with you, Maroon.
@"ArizonaViking" said: Another point was during the 2018 draft, the Vikings were set to start adding pieces to better the offensive line. But we all seen the run on offensive linemen in that first round of the draft. For the Vikings, picking in the 30th spot left the cupboards bare. With the except of O'Neil taken in the second run, but was still considered a project at the time.
Good point, and another is that we lost our 2017 first-round pick in trading for Sam Bradford, taking away another chance to improve the OL. That trade might be remembered for sinking this Viking era as badly as the Herschel trade did the Burns period.
I really want to join the optimism bandwagon that's fueled by Kubiak/Stefanski/outside zone scheme - but here's what I keep remembering: Mike Zimmer has had a new offensive scheme or coordinator/guru EVERY SEASON since 2015. Why is this one real?
@"Jor-El" said:I really want to join the optimism bandwagon that's fueled by Kubiak/Stefanski/outside zone scheme - but here's what I keep remembering: Mike Zimmer has had a new offensive scheme or coordinator/guru EVERY SEASON since 2015. Why is this one real?
I think Shurmur would have been here for awhile if he hadn't gotten another Head Coaching opportunity. The reason he got that opportunity was for the excellent work he did with the offense in 2017. That was completely out of Zimmer's control... the only OCs Zimmer has had issues with was Norv who ran the ball too much (unbalanced) and DeFelippo who passed too much (unbalanced).
The Kubiak hiring is actually in the same vein as when he hired Shurmur. Former HC known for his offensive mind that is brought in to help the offense. The best part about Kubiak is he doesn't have any inclination to be a HC again... this could actually help the Vikings gain some consistency in scheme, playbook, etc. on offense for awhile.
I don't agree that we "fell in a trap". We're in a pit for over 2 decades. We have not had the same QB named opening day starter for a 3rd straight season since Culpeper. We forever been looking for a long term solution. How can you fall into a trap when your still trying to crawl out of a pit? We may still be in that pit/trap. We didn't just fall in it because of Kirk.
Blame Cousins all you want... but the difference between last season and the season before it... had nothing to do with the QB. The defense regressed noticeably. But, yeah: blame the QB for that (re: wins and losses).
@"HappyViking" said: This will be Cousin's eighth season in the NFL; fifth as a starter. His TEAM'S best season (four years ago) was 9-7, and his team has only won that many once. Sadly, I fully expect to see 8-8 or at best 9-7 for 2019.
Fixed it for you.
@"pumpf" said: Blame Cousins all you want... but the difference between last season and the season before it... had nothing to do with the QB. The defense regressed noticeably. But, yeah: blame the QB for that (re: wins and losses).Good Point. Its not just cousins that needs to play up to his contract, I can think of only one of the High paid Defensive Players who met his contract expectations last year ( Danielle Hunter).
@"kmillard" said:Yeah, plus the "Rhodes were open" so much that Zimmer called him out a few weeks back. I know he played through injury, but he needs to learn when to "tag out" and get the rest to heal.@"pumpf" said: Blame Cousins all you want... but the difference between last season and the season before it... had nothing to do with the QB. The defense regressed noticeably. But, yeah: blame the QB for that (re: wins and losses). Good Point. Its not just cousins that needs to play up to his contract, I can think of only one of the High paid Defensive Players who met his contract expectations last year ( Danielle Hunter).
This is a dumb article. I generally do agree with the idea of building
around an elite QB or a cheap QB, but I don’t think that our situation
generally fits into that scenario. We
had a well constructed roster and we were entering into our SB window with our
without a QB. We had a ton of big
contracts, none of whom were restricted by Cousins signing. Our biggest risk is not being able to win
with this roster, before we lose talent to age, injuries, poaching. I think going the cheap QB route is a lot
riskier (purely in terms of winning a SB) than people are making it out to
be. Does it really do you any good to
have a Lamar Jackson or a Trubisky at QB?
If you need to run a rookie contract QB, you need a stacked roster to
win a SB. Getting a stacked roster is much harder than just getting a rookie QB and bringing in some FAs.
I really like PFF’s take on the matter. I think for most teams, you just need to keep
drafting QBs until you find an elite one.
It needs to be part of your culture so that a Stafford/Cousins type guy
doesn’t get butt-hurt when you bring in another guy every 2 years. I also think you need have a strong
development plan for your QBs. Your
ultimate goal needs to be in developing your QBs into elite QBs. Looking at our team, we’ve had a very good
defensive development strategy, but not the same level of coaching competency
on offense. Hopefully we can keep Kubiak
for a while and retain a high level coach for a long time, even if Stefanski
gets poached after a year or two. Having
that top level coach for multiple years opposite of your HC is huge.
@"Jor-El" said:@"ArizonaViking" said: Another point was during the 2018 draft, the Vikings were set to start adding pieces to better the offensive line. But we all seen the run on offensive linemen in that first round of the draft. For the Vikings, picking in the 30th spot left the cupboards bare. With the except of O'Neil taken in the second run, but was still considered a project at the time.Good point, and another is that we lost our 2017 first-round pick in trading for Sam Bradford, taking away another chance to improve the OL. That trade might be remembered for sinking this Viking era as badly as the Herschel trade did the Burns period.
I really want to join the optimism bandwagon that's fueled by Kubiak/Stefanski/outside zone scheme - but here's what I keep remembering: Mike Zimmer has had a new offensive scheme or coordinator/guru EVERY SEASON since 2015. Why is this one real?
We won't know if it's real until we see it work. I'm not sure why anyone has to actually say that. We all know that. But what has me optimistic is that for the first time in I don't know how long, the pieces fit together on offense. And not just on offense, but how the kind of offense we'll run fits the kind of defense we play.Last year, there was some optimism about JDF, but only because he was considered a bright young mind in the NFL. Our biggest concern was "can he call plays." The most optimistic among us expressed that concern many times. I know I did. It was a legit concern and the job proved too big for him. And there was zero connection between the line coaches and the OC, between the offense and what the QB did well (other than play action, but if you don't run the ball, what's the point in play action?). All that has changed.
This year we have another bright young mind at the helm. But this time he's being mentored by a proven offensive mind who's been successful running the ball everywhere he's been. That syncs with what Zimmer wants to do. Ball control syncs with a team who plays good defense.
This Gibbs/Shanahan/Kubiak system has turned mediocre and undrafted backs like Alfred Morris, Olandis Gary, Arian Foster, Mike Anderson and Justin Forsett into 1,000 yard backs. All of those backs had their best years running in this offense and I think, to a man, have largely disappeared outside of it. There's even a rumor that the reason Clinton Portis was traded to the Redskins way back when was because the Broncos were confident they could make just about any back who could move laterally successful in this system. They didn't NEED a guy like Portis. They just needed a runner who could move laterally and in one cut, turn it up field when the lane opens. Remember Darren McFadden's terrible year? That was because he was downhill runner--a holdover on the Raiders' power team--who struggled mightily when the Raiders switched to a zone. Vikings have the perfect zone runner in Dalvin Cook. They added another in Alexander Mattison.
And the syncing doesn't stop there. This is the WCO/ZBS offense that Kirk Cousins ran in Washington for Kyle Shanahan. He knows it well and he's a perfect for it. It's why Kyle Shanahan was reportedly "in mourning" that he was unable to get Cousins in San Francisco and had to settle for Jimmy G. What's more, the Vikings replaced their center with the best outside zone center in the draft. With the Kubiak and Dennison-advised additions of Bradbury, Samia, and Udoh the line is well on its way to becoming much more of a ZBS line. O'Neill and Collins are suberb fits as well.
Yeah, might take some time to adjust and gel, and some of our current linemen aren't great zone fits, so who knows what will shake out in the end, but I'm excited the focused direction. The clarity.
MB, nice post, and I so admire your faith and optimism. It's been robbed and beaten out of me these past couple few years. Hope your vision for this season all comes our way as you see it. It'd be awesome! B)
@"HappyViking" said: MB, nice post, and I so admire your faith and optimism. It's been robbed and beaten out of me these past couple few years. Hope your vision for this season all comes our way as you see it. It'd be awesome! B)I feel pretty confident that it will. For the offense.
Of course, as you well know, with this team, it's more a game of whack-a-mole than anything else. Team enters its window with a great young nucleus on both sides of the ball....and Teddy's leg nearly falls off. We trade for Bradford, and while he plays very well, suddenly the defense can't stop anyone. WTF? We fix the defense, then Bradford gets hurt and we play an entire season playing good football on both sides of the ball, but all the while waiting for bad Keenum to show up. And of course he eventually does. Worse, Mike Zimmer proves the coaching staff isn't immune from stumbling as he gets out-coached big time by the Eagles in the NFCC. So we steal the Eagles OC and upgrade Keenum to Cousins and we suffer two major injuries on an already weak offensive line. Not to mention the death of its coach. We fix that....yeah, well...you get the picture.
I'm not making any promises because who knows where the mole will pop up this year, but yeah, I feel pretty damn confident that the OFFENSE at least will be a lot better this year. :-)
@"kmillard" said:Is it so significant that we had to pay a QB? The Vikings are one of 14 teams with $25-$31M cap space at QB this year, so it's not like this is an outlier within the NFL. Cousins costs about $5M more than Derek Carr or Eli Manning - would that extra $5M make that much difference? The real trap for the Vikings, in terms of salary, is that they have bucked the NFL trend by believing they should spend heavily on defense in an era when the NFL is legislating away the impact of defense. We have 52.73% of our 2019 cap space allocated to defensive players, highest percentage in the NFL. That's not just due to 1 player, it's a series of decisions - 10 defensive players on our squad add up to $80M in cap space. If Cousins was a mistake or was just getting more than a smart team allocates for QB, he'll be gone after 2020; the commitment to the defense will be a longer-lived "trap" if it was a bad strategy.@"pumpf" said: Blame Cousins all you want... but the difference between last season and the season before it... had nothing to do with the QB. The defense regressed noticeably. But, yeah: blame the QB for that (re: wins and losses). Good Point. Its not just cousins that needs to play up to his contract, I can think of only one of the High paid Defensive Players who met his contract expectations last year ( Danielle Hunter).
@"Jor-El" said:@"kmillard" said:Is it so significant that we had to pay a QB? The Vikings are one of 14 teams with $25-$31M cap space at QB this year, so it's not like this is an outlier within the NFL. Cousins costs about $5M more than Derek Carr or Eli Manning - would that extra $5M make that much difference? The real trap for the Vikings, in terms of salary, is that they have bucked the NFL trend by believing they should spend heavily on defense in an era when the NFL is legislating away the impact of defense. We have 52.73% of our 2019 cap space allocated to defensive players, highest percentage in the NFL. That's not just due to 1 player, it's a series of decisions - 10 defensive players on our squad add up to $80M in cap space. If Cousins was a mistake or was just getting more than a smart team allocates for QB, he'll be gone after 2020; the commitment to the defense will be a longer-lived "trap" if it was a bad strategy.@"pumpf" said: Blame Cousins all you want... but the difference between last season and the season before it... had nothing to do with the QB. The defense regressed noticeably. But, yeah: blame the QB for that (re: wins and losses). Good Point. Its not just cousins that needs to play up to his contract, I can think of only one of the High paid Defensive Players who met his contract expectations last year ( Danielle Hunter).
would those other teams spend more on their defense if they had the likes of Rhodes, Barr, Kendricks, Hunter, Smith and the rest to pay? We used a lot of high picks on defense and if we wanted to keep them we would have to spend. Maybe those teams will be closer in line with the Vikes if their rosters were constructed the way the Vikes is... 1 game away from the super bowl is kind of hard to argue to hard against.
@"Jor-El" said:@"kmillard" said:Is it so significant that we had to pay a QB? The Vikings are one of 14 teams with $25-$31M cap space at QB this year, so it's not like this is an outlier within the NFL. Cousins costs about $5M more than Derek Carr or Eli Manning - would that extra $5M make that much difference? The real trap for the Vikings, in terms of salary, is that they have bucked the NFL trend by believing they should spend heavily on defense in an era when the NFL is legislating away the impact of defense. We have 52.73% of our 2019 cap space allocated to defensive players, highest percentage in the NFL. That's not just due to 1 player, it's a series of decisions - 10 defensive players on our squad add up to $80M in cap space. If Cousins was a mistake or was just getting more than a smart team allocates for QB, he'll be gone after 2020; the commitment to the defense will be a longer-lived "trap" if it was a bad strategy.@"pumpf" said: Blame Cousins all you want... but the difference between last season and the season before it... had nothing to do with the QB. The defense regressed noticeably. But, yeah: blame the QB for that (re: wins and losses). Good Point. Its not just cousins that needs to play up to his contract, I can think of only one of the High paid Defensive Players who met his contract expectations last year ( Danielle Hunter).
That is one big if. I would say when you are that heavily vested in a unit that unit should dictate big game outcomes. We've been very good but we haven't dictated our way through the playoffs yet. I would say I agree with your opinion here.
@"Jor-El" said:@"kmillard" said:Is it so significant that we had to pay a QB? The Vikings are one of 14 teams with $25-$31M cap space at QB this year, so it's not like this is an outlier within the NFL. Cousins costs about $5M more than Derek Carr or Eli Manning - would that extra $5M make that much difference? The real trap for the Vikings, in terms of salary, is that they have bucked the NFL trend by believing they should spend heavily on defense in an era when the NFL is legislating away the impact of defense. We have 52.73% of our 2019 cap space allocated to defensive players, highest percentage in the NFL. That's not just due to 1 player, it's a series of decisions - 10 defensive players on our squad add up to $80M in cap space. If Cousins was a mistake or was just getting more than a smart team allocates for QB, he'll be gone after 2020; the commitment to the defense will be a longer-lived "trap" if it was a bad strategy.@"pumpf" said: Blame Cousins all you want... but the difference between last season and the season before it... had nothing to do with the QB. The defense regressed noticeably. But, yeah: blame the QB for that (re: wins and losses). Good Point. Its not just cousins that needs to play up to his contract, I can think of only one of the High paid Defensive Players who met his contract expectations last year ( Danielle Hunter).
I wasn't calling him out. I agree with your assessment, I was more pointing to the fact that the high paid defense took much of the year off in 2018.
The Defenses across the League sure as hell looked a lot better the 2nd half of last season. And did anyone happen to catch that offensive snoozefest that happened in the Super Bowl?
Methinks this notion that Defense is irrelevant is ignoring a lot of history, including recent history.
Edit Post (mod action — author will see a notice)
Warn Poster
Suspend User (3 days)
The user will be suspended for 3 days and will receive an email with the reason and information about how to appeal.