KR rules out pay cut: "I'm too young for that"

@"JimmyinSD" said:

as far as the Treadwell comparison... lot less money for Treadwell,  and not a huge difference in how they are used and their production based on opportunities.  Rudy is not a top tier offensive threat at TE so really its not really about what he has done,  its how much more has he done than a guy that would work for half his salary.  I dont see a huge drop off without him on the field.  Maybe I am wrong.  I am sure we will find out.

Honestly,  with Diggs and AT being the 1 and 2 on every play,  that really doesnt leave a lot of chances for a #3 receiver or a TE,  especially with Cook out of the back field.

This whole thing is not about what he has done.  It is more then likely about what he will do and I am willing to bet the sticking point is guaranteed money.
7 to 8 mil is probably fair but maybe the Vikings want him to do like Hunter and take a bit less.  Maybe he will if they guarantee more?
This whole thing feels like a "meh".
If he stays, fine.  If he leaves, fine.
They will figure it out if he is not here.
If they plan on running more then he may not see as many targets anyway and his production could go down.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"pumpf" said: I'd like to keep Rudy around.  But I really don't see what he offers that we can't get from Man-Bun (if he had more opportunities).  Granted, Morgan might not have the hands that Rudy has, but he's just as "quick" (relative term) and equal (in ability) in YAC.  But Rudy is a good guy and has been pretty reliable.  If they can't lock him down to an extension, then I'd prefer to let it all play out next season... and see what kind of FA offers he gets.  I don't think it will be in the same range as he's being paid now.  So... maybe... we can re-sign him in 2020 for a lower number?

Really? Morgan has been targeted 19 times in the past three seasons - TOTAL, not per year. Rudolph has been targeted 295 in the same period. So if Morgan looked effective on one of his 16 career catches, it's probably because opposing teams ignore him. His testing numbers never suggested even moderate quickness. Morgan is an excellent blocker and valuable in that role, but If he is targeted 5 times a game like Rudolph, I think he will look like an offensive lineman trying to play TE.

Well targets really have a lot to do with things pumpf---heck morgan has been targeted so little over is tenure that teams forget he's on the field so few contested plays. whereas Rudy has to block at home fight off the DE or Lb and then find a seam to sit down in  and get his head around to find the ball all in a couple of seconds  Oh and by the way over the same time period his % is over 69 not 66

@"Akvike" said: Well targets really have a lot to do with things pumpf---heck morgan has been targeted so little over is tenure that teams forget he's on the field so few contested plays. whereas Rudy has to block at home fight off the DE or Lb and then find a seam to sit down in  and get his head around to find the ball all in a couple of seconds  Oh and by the way over the same time period his % is over 69 not 66

I'm not saying that Morgan IS better.  What I'm saying is that- according to my eye-test (and the stats), there's no substantial difference.  Yes, Rudy got more targets.  But Treadwell got more targets than Thielen did (at the same point in their careers); does that mean that Treadwell is better?

Rudolph has no money that is guaranteed IIRC. His cap hit would be zero if cut. This is his way of saying pay me or cut me and let me go to the Patriots lol.

@"pumpf" said:

@"Akvike" said: Well targets really have a lot to do with things pumpf---heck morgan has been targeted so little over is tenure that teams forget he's on the field so few contested plays. whereas Rudy has to block at home fight off the DE or Lb and then find a seam to sit down in  and get his head around to find the ball all in a couple of seconds  Oh and by the way over the same time period his % is over 69 not 66

I'm saying that it has little to do with the ability of each.  Do you know how Morgan would do if he had the number of targets that Rudy had?  I don't.  But I do know that he is a better blocker.  As for "over the same time period", that seems a little bit like cherry picking.  I went with career numbers.  If you want to make the argument that one of them played with a hall of fame QB and the other had Spergeon Wynn: well, then I might consider the difference worth considering.  Even so, we're talking about 3% ("cherry-picked" stats vs. his career numbers) vs. Morgan's... and Morgan's is still higher- by double digits.

I'm not saying that Morgan IS better.  What I'm saying is that- according to my eye-test (and the stats), there's no substantial difference.  Yes, Rudy got more targets.  But Treadwell got more targets than Thielen did (at the same point in their careers); does that mean that Treadwell is better?

@"pumpf" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"pumpf" said: I'd like to keep Rudy around.  But I really don't see what he offers that we can't get from Man-Bun (if he had more opportunities).  Granted, Morgan might not have the hands that Rudy has, but he's just as "quick" (relative term) and equal (in ability) in YAC.  But Rudy is a good guy and has been pretty reliable.  If they can't lock him down to an extension, then I'd prefer to let it all play out next season... and see what kind of FA offers he gets.  I don't think it will be in the same range as he's being paid now.  So... maybe... we can re-sign him in 2020 for a lower number?

Really? Morgan has been targeted 19 times in the past three seasons - TOTAL, not per year. Rudolph has been targeted 295 in the same period. So if Morgan looked effective on one of his 16 career catches, it's probably because opposing teams ignore him. His testing numbers never suggested even moderate quickness. Morgan is an excellent blocker and valuable in that role, but If he is targeted 5 times a game like Rudolph, I think he will look like an offensive lineman trying to play TE.

I don't know what targets have to do with anything.  Yeah, Rudy's gotten more targets.  And yet, he gets only 1 more yard per reception.  He also has a catch rate of 66%, whereas Morgan has a catch rate of 84%.  Your OPINION is that- if Morgan was targeted more- he would be exposed.  Well, you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but it's not a fact.  

KR rules out pay cut: "I'm too young for that"To be fair Rudy is talking to Sid who has 70 yrs on him...  ;)  B)

I wanted a cheaper alternative years ago but relying on a Rookie and blocking-1st TE, which Morgan inarguably is, would be madness for a team with lofty goals.

Two TE sets with a Rookie and Morgan would scare exactly zero DCs in the NFL.

If the team had an Irv Smith talent going into his second season with enough rookie production to point to the potential for a bigger sophomore year that would be another story. They don't.

Rudy isn't flashy. But he's Top 10 across the board including fantasy numbers, which means he produces.

Teams will still key on him first, which allows Smith to develop. That also has value. So does not having the pressure to replace a Top 10 productive TE as a Rookie.

If Rick hadn't kept shopping at Dollar General for Rudy's replacement the last 4 years we wouldn't be having this conversation.

not cherry picking just keeping it apples to apples---same linemen and blocking philosophy during the measured period for both.  Why would the Vikings keep drafting TE every year since Morgan got  here if he was such a hidden gem (19 targets in 3 years tells ya all ya need to know) ready to supplant Rudy.  Rudy was targeted 168 times in his first 3 seasons by comparison.

I believe it was Morgan's rookie year and Zimmer made a statement that surprised the hell out of me.  He said something to the affect of "Morgan might have the best hands on the team", when referring to his catching ability.  The question is, why haven't we seen those hands being targeted?  Is it because our offense didn't run many 2 TE sets?  Is it because if we did run 2 TE sets, we needed at least 1 to stay on the line and help block with our subaverage OL?  Is it because Rudolph is more comfortable in understanding and exploiting the defenses faced?  Is it because of Rudy's contract alone?  (We have to feature him for what we are paying him) Is it simply a matter of managing risk?  Rudy has a proven history where we know exactly what we'll get out of him vs. Morgan's lack of history.  None of us can know what any of other TE's are capable of.  Simply because they truly haven't been given a chance yet.  Diggs got off the bench his rookie year ONLY because an injury forced him onto the field.  And look what happened.  MAYBE Morgan or Conklin is the new Diggs in TE form, but he just hasn't had an injury open up an opportunity to prove it yet.  Zimmer has shown he puts a high priority on known productivity over potential productivity time after time.  Vets over rookies all the time.  Especially on the offensive side of the ball.  About the only time he's comfortable putting rookies and unproven players out there, is when they are hand picked by him on defense or on special teams.  Just look at our kicker decisions last year as more proof of this mindset.  I believe this mindset even applies to our coaches.  He tried an unproven OC last year and look what happened.  Fired midseason (just like our kicker), a new unproven OC is hired BUT this time he has a veteran coach holding his hand that Zim trusts.  

Until Rudy is off this team or he is injured and unable to play, none of the other TE's will be fully unleashed, utilized and allowed to prove themselves.  The only other way it happens, is if Kubiak tells Zimmer to get out of his way in running the offense.  Zim wouldn't let Stephanski tell him that.  But he may listen to Kubiak because of his proven history and respect for him.  Tony Sporano had that ability with Zimmer.  He could walk into Zim's office and tell him to calm down and Zim would listen.  We didn't have that coach last year and I think it showed with some of Zim's decisions.  Kub's is potentially the guy that Zim needs this year, to help keep his passionate quick twitch decision making under control. 

All of that to say this, Rudy is a top 10 TE in some parts of his game.  In other parts he is bottom 10.  In others he's middle of the pack.  He's a great dude by all accounts and he represents our team and our state as well as anyone ever could.  Is that worth 7.6 million this year?  I would put a value of Rudy's play around 5.5-6 million a year, as an armchair GM spending other people's money.  So no, 7.6 is bad value IMO.  However, Rudy's team leadership and his community service go far beyond just simple stats that can be rated by PFF.  Thus a premium contact, above just stats, can at least justified a bit.  But 1.5 to 2 million is probably a bit steep for my blood.  I'd probably try and shake hands at 6.5 million and look forward to an exciting year.  But if Rudy isn't budging from 7.6, I'm walking away and I'm giving our young guys their shot.      

When it comes to targets, I still go back to O'Neill.  The staff didn't want to play him until they had to.  But when they did, he was CLEARLY better than Hill.  I don't know how good Morgan is... or could be.  But I don't see Rudy as irreplaceable.  But, if/when he's no longer on the team, I'm certainly prepared to admit I was wrong.

@"AllBS" said: I believe it was Morgan's rookie year and Zimmer made a statement that surprised the hell out of me.  He said something to the affect of "Morgan might have the best hands on the team", when referring to his catching ability.  The question is, why haven't we seen those hands being targeted?  Is it because our offense didn't run many 2 TE sets?  Is it because if we did run 2 TE sets, we needed at least 1 to stay on the line and help block with our subaverage OL?  Is it because Rudolph is more comfortable in understanding and exploiting the defenses faced?  Is it because of Rudy's contract alone?  (We have to feature him for what we are paying him) Is it simply a matter of managing risk?  Rudy has a proven history where we know exactly what we'll get out of him vs. Morgan's lack of history.  None of us can know what any of other TE's are capable of.  Simply because they truly haven't been given a chance yet.  

@"pumpf" said: When it comes to targets, I still go back to O'Neill.  The staff didn't want to play him until they had to.  But when they did, he was CLEARLY better than Hill.  I don't know how good Morgan is... or could be.  But I don't see Rudy as irreplaceable.  But, if/when he's no longer on the team, I'm certainly prepared to admit I was wrong.

Super excited about his upside though. When called upon, he stepped up and showed the intensity and focus to play relatively mistake-free. At the end of the day, that intensity and focus might prove just as valuable as his great size and athleticism.