You won't like it...

Gary is fools gold...

1.  The Vikings had decent OLines when they drafted Moss and Peterson
2. The Vikings werent 1 year into a monster contract for a franchise QB when they drafted Moss and Peterson

I agree that they have to weigh the available talent,  but some where in that ratio has to be need and its not like they need just 1 OL addition,  they should be looking at 2 OL selections in the first 2 days at least.  

We need to see a day 1 starter from our first 2 picks this year and we arent nearly as likely to see that if they go Defense in the first round.

The Vikings offensive line hasn't been this bad in how long now?? It can't be ignored again or you can basically wipe your ass with Cousins's contract. And I have to take a little issue at you throwing out Moss and Peterson, once in a generation players, to try and make your point. We all understand BPA, in theory. But Minnesota was in MUCH better shape on the OL when they drafted both of those guys. And the ultimate reach picks in Ponder and Williamson were horrific, no argument there. But those positions are the tops in bust potential anyway for every team. 

If Minnesota waits until round 3 to take an OL, good luck to them because they'll need it. It will affect next season also. If Spielman ignores it again, why did they bother signing Cousins? His contract will be done and Minnesota will have offered him the worst starting unit wearing purple in 15 years or more. The depth on their OL is staggeringly bad. Any injuries and it'll be a shit show. 

Don't think I don't understand what you are laying down, I do. And its possible they don't go OL in the first 2 rounds, its just how the Draft might fall. But they are in a tough situation by their own doing and even having said what I just said, I'll still be surprised if they don't draft OL with one of their first two picks. 

We've reached critical mass on the OL...the OL is the heart and soul of a team...they set the tone...a guy like Lindstrom is going to give you a better chance to maximize that investment in our QB, unlock Cook, and extend drives that keep our D fresh and off the field...one more sleep and we'll know what our brain trust values... 

I'm not ultimately convinced Trey Waynes doesn't get moved for a 3rd or so....not saying I think he should be but it clears cap and nets a pick.
We need OL help and we darn well better grab it early and often.  IF and its a HUGE IF there is a "once in a lifetime" talent available at 18 then I say go for it.   But that better lock us into 2-3 more OL over the course of the draft.  We need starters AND warm bodies. 

I guess I have to ask then why a once in a lifetime talent made it to 18?  I certainly hope we do the right thing and draft at least 2 OL in rounds 1-3.

1)  No one knows if teams that draft BPA are better at building rosters.  We don't know where they rank each players and if they're actually drafting for need or using BPA.  Furthermore, good coaching staffs get more out of their players and teams with bad owners/front offices/coaching staffs will never be able to build a great roster.
2)  We aren't building a roster.  Our roster is one of the best in the league with a gaping hole at OLine.3)  We need 2 quality OLine.  We can't wait to draft our first one with a 3rd.4)  If you are waiting until the last round where it's likely to get a player, there might be a run and you might not get any.  Last year we got the last decent OLine prospect and he was a year 1 red shirt.5)  Our OLine is desperately in need of an impact player.  We have a bunch of lower tier starters.  If we draft another lower tier starter we're just going to end up with a lower tier line that we still need to upgrade in 2020.6)  If a Moss is available at 18, sure draft Moss.  If Aaron Donald is available at 18, draft Donald.  If Kevin Williams is available at 18, draft OLine.

It's funny how unexcited I am for the draft this year. Guess it's been a while since I've felt the real excitement I used to. Maybe because they've drawn it out over 3 days and starting on a Thursday. Maybe it's just because I've learned that picks don't turn out like you expect when then actually play. Maybe it's just this year because they really need the unexciting Olinemen and if they don't get 1 or 2, even the more exciting picks will seem bad. I'll follow along tomorrow just not the same now.

I'm more apprehensive of failure for this upcoming draft...hope I'm proven wrong...

@"suncoastvike" said: It's funny how unexcited I am for the draft this year. Guess it's been a while since I've felt the real excitement I used to. Maybe because they've drawn it out over 3 days and starting on a Thursday. Maybe it's just because I've learned that picks don't turn out like you expect when then actually play. Maybe it's just this year because they really need the unexciting Olinemen and if they don't get 1 or 2, even the more exciting picks will seem bad. I'll follow along tomorrow just not the same now.

Very interested in who they select, but absolutely don't care about viewing it on TV.

@"StickyBun" said:

@"suncoastvike" said: It's funny how unexcited I am for the draft this year. Guess it's been a while since I've felt the real excitement I used to. Maybe because they've drawn it out over 3 days and starting on a Thursday. Maybe it's just because I've learned that picks don't turn out like you expect when then actually play. Maybe it's just this year because they really need the unexciting Olinemen and if they don't get 1 or 2, even the more exciting picks will seem bad. I'll follow along tomorrow just not the same now.

I don't get caught up in watching the Draft anymore, haven't for about 10 years now. 
Watching it on TV is such a colossal time suck, interwoven with contrived filler that is just diarrhea of the mouth. 

Very interested in who they select, but absolutely don't care about viewing it on TV.

Reality is there are maybe 18 total players with a 1st Round grade. 2 of those were Gary and Sweat but their injury situations (and Gary never having lived up to his HS hype) will push them down. 

That means someone has to get elevated. And I'm betting it's the O-Line. I believe not only Dillard/Taylor/Williams are gone but also Bradbury and maybe even Lindstrom.

So let's say McCoy is sitting there at #18 with a clear 2nd Round grade but so is Christian Wilkins by some strange set of circumstances.  Which one do you take?

That was kind of my point with this post. Most of you remember how loudly I argued to not take a Defender in the 1st because any Offensive pick, no matter how much lower ranked, would help that side of the ball more.

That pick was Treadwell. Yes, he was rated about where he was picked. But it felt like a knee-jerk reaction to the run on WRs. I've learned my lesson on putting need before all else.

But hopefully I'm just being pessimistic. Maybe one of the Big 3 makes it to #18. Or at the least one or both of Bradbury/Lindstrom is sitting there.

I just have this sneaky bad feeling that teams are recognizing that this is a weird Draft with only about 16 guys with 1st Round grades and about 60 with 2nd Round grades and will reach for O-Line early and often seeing as how the 2020 Class doesn't look too good.

Throw in weak QB prospects and Sweat and Gary sliding and Minnesota will probably have to reach unless one of the guys with and true 1st Round grade slides.

We might also see more trades happening then ever before because of this funky Draft Class. Some teams will be hell bent for leather to move up and snag a true Blue Chip. Other teams will want to acquire more picks in the 2nd & 3rd where the true strength of this Draft is. Best way to do that isn't with picks but by trading players. Especially to teams that have a glaring hole at one spot that they don't see an answer for in this Draft.

This could be an epic and very surreal couple of days! As always, buckle up my purple friends, this is going to be as fun as flying through an asteroid field in a modified freighter!

FSU, you’re not wrong and i can think of another instance: in 2009 we desperately needed a RT and Michael Oher was available. Perfect obvious match to our need, right? But Childress picked Percy Harvin. OK, Harvin eventually melted down, but he clicked with Favre and was a big factor in our last decent playoff run...and Oher was a journeyman lineman who no one would know if not for The Blind Side. We picked a RT in round 2, Phil Loadholt, who was at least as productive as Oher.

Unfiortunately, this raises a contradicting factor: Vikings have been in need of offensive linemen, and de-prioritizing it, for more than a decade. The team has so rarely felt an OL was the BPA that we’re desperate: 4 viable starters on the roster and we need 6 because someone WILL get hurt.

Maybe the way to deal with the disparity between offensive line prospects is to trade up and get Dillard or Williams.

I agree with this 100%!
DON'T CHASE THE DRAFT, LET IT COME TO YOU!
This is how the Vikings got Moss.  They certainly did not need him with Carter and Reed already on the team.
They missed an opportunity to do this when they took Treadwell instead of Myles Jack who for some reason fell.
What has that cost them?  Well, perhaps they would not have given Barr that huge extension if they had Jack?  Perhaps they would have been able trade Barr already (last year) for a high pick?
When the Vikings stupidly made the Bradford trade they lost their 2017 first round pick.  It was a massive failure to not trust your backup to play out the games.  IMHO.  The Patriots did not panic when Brady went down and they just rolled with Matt Cassel all season.  If the Vikings had of rolled with Shaun Hill and whomever else then the probable outcome would have been a couple of more losses no?  I think it is reasonable to assume they would have finished around 6-10 which would have put them drafting at #9 in 2017.
Who went after that?  Mahomes and Watson.  Vikings had a visit with Mahomes too.
Imagine if they would have just rolled with Hill and took their lumps in 2017.  Most reasonable people would have understood since Teddy's injury was just terribly unfortunate for him most of all and the team.
Perhaps the Vikings would have had Mahomes right now and not a 29 mil QB who I like but is expensive.
This year they need to take the best player with that first pick.  Period.
Could be Fant, Metcalf, Sweat, Gary, Wilkins, Simmons, Ferrell, etc.
Metcalf would be an awesome pick!  That would open up tons of routes for Diggs and Thielen because he is going to take the top off the defense.  That kind of size and speed is hard to find.
Gary is another freak that I cant see them passing especially with Griffen likely in his last season here due to the fact that he is not going to see the rest of his contract and even has easily reached incentives that void those remaining years.  Gary was not as productive as many feel he should have been at Michigan but you are not going to find those kinds of measure-ables.
I remember when they took Hunter who also did not have much production.  He was good against the run as is Gary.  This is something that Zimmer wants first from his defensive linemen too.  Andre Patterson would likely be pounding the table for Gary because he knows what he is able to do with that kind of clay.
I will add that the money given to pass rushers this off season was ridiculous.  If the Vikings can get one for cheap then they need to do it.
I still like Simmons with that first pick though.

I agree with you in theory. I just don't agree with where you have your dips and dropoffs. Or that Lindsrom, for example, is a lesser value than Gary and/or Sweat. Gary is an athletic marvel but didn't really do anything at Michigan. Why? You have to factor that in. Sweat has a heart problem. You have to factor that in as well. You'd hate for that first pick to be an all out bust. Lindstrom may not be a sexy pick, but he is probably a day-one starter with a very low bust factor IMO. At the end of the day, you have to ask what's going to help the Vikings win games? I think right now, considering our QB, our back, our wides, getting help for the offense to make those weapons go has to be at the top of the list. 

Everyone seems to think value and need are mutually exclusive. The linemen who figure in between 18 and 50 are some pretty exciting prospects too. 

@"suncoastvike" said: It's funny how unexcited I am for the draft this year. Guess it's been a while since I've felt the real excitement I used to. Maybe because they've drawn it out over 3 days and starting on a Thursday. Maybe it's just because I've learned that picks don't turn out like you expect when then actually play. Maybe it's just this year because they really need the unexciting Olinemen and if they don't get 1 or 2, even the more exciting picks will seem bad. I'll follow along tomorrow just not the same now.

My main indifference is based on WHO is setting these "tiers" of players and formulating these draft strategies. First, giving grades to players and having a philosophy for not (overly) reaching for need is not some radical, new approach to the draft that Richard created. In fact, the vast majority of teams in the league do the EXACT same thing, and have been doing so for a very long time. The difference is, obviously, a team's ability to correctly assess and grade these players. That's what separates the haves from the have-nots, not some unique approach to drafting players.

Second, I differ from most here in how I judge a teams front office success. I don't give a rat's ass about how many Pro Bowl players are drafted or how many games started said players compile in their careers. If the team doesn't WIN playoff games, then the personnel department and/or coaching staff are NOT doing their jobs effectively. Period. 2 playoff wins in 13 years is considered atrocious by most objective standards. I can't recall how many times the Patriots led the league in Pro Bowl players or leading the league in games-started-by-draftees, but I do know they lead the league (by a HUGE margin) in Championships this century. Truly great teams (the whole) EXCEED the sum of it's parts. The Vikings' parts seldom even add up to the expected sum, let alone exceed it. 

I use the pro bowl players and number of starters metrics because those seem to be the drivers in the analyses I've been seeing on numerous Pro Football sites to grade a team's draft "success" over a certain time frame. Why do I think that approach is incredibly flawed? I give you 3 players : Blair Walsh, Corderelle Patterson and Teddy Bridgewater. All 3 were "Pro Bowlers" and 2 were starters (not sure if KR's are considered starters or if Paterson may have started a few games)  for several years. Can anyone TRULY claim that the team's ACTUAL results during their respective tenures with the Vikings  warrants the expenditure of the SEVEN draft picks that were needed to acquire these 3 players? I say absolutely NOT, but all 3 drastically skew the metrics and make them appear to be more successful draft selections than they actually WERE. (I purposely highlighted actual results, because you can't use what TB MIGHT have done in 2016/17)

Lastly, as I stated in my opening paragraph, is it reasonable to EXPECT the Vikings value board to coincide EXACTLY with their needs? That for all, or for at least 2 out of the first 3 picks, that the hallowed Spielman tiered board will align perfectly with the teams needs and players available? That an OT they have ranked 18 or higher will be there at 18 (without a higher ranked player available, of course). Or an OG that they rank, say 30, will be there at 50? Seriously? If anyone here truly has that expectation, I have some wonderful oceanfront property in Nebraska that I can sell you at a great price. If they do indeed select 2 OL in the first 3 rounds, I'm gonna have to call BS that they adhered religiously to their rankings, although I have NO doubt that will be the schpiel at the press conference(s), "We couldn't BELIEVE so-and-so was still there at pick such-and-such!"

We'll see how far the Vikings are able to go in the 2019 playoffs (if they make it at all), because that is the only true way to judge the success or failure of this draft (Ricky himself stated they need immediate, impact, year 1 players from this draft). I personally think that it  SHOULD take a playoff "run" (meaning at least 2 playoff WINS) to save Ricky's and Zim's jobs. But, should they crap the bed yet again, I have a sneaking suspicion that Richard will once again find yet one more sacrificial lamb and emerge unscathed from another car-wreck of a season. That is the one aspect of his overall performance during his time with the Vikings that I give him an A+ grade, no doubt about it.

Regardless, the draft should have some mildly compelling story lines, but I'll occupy my time with something more interesting and productive, like filing down the corns on my pinkey toes.

@"njvike" said:

@"suncoastvike" said: It's funny how unexcited I am for the draft this year. Guess it's been a while since I've felt the real excitement I used to. Maybe because they've drawn it out over 3 days and starting on a Thursday. Maybe it's just because I've learned that picks don't turn out like you expect when then actually play. Maybe it's just this year because they really need the unexciting Olinemen and if they don't get 1 or 2, even the more exciting picks will seem bad. I'll follow along tomorrow just not the same now.

 The nature of the team's positional needs certainly partially plays into my disinterest in this draft, especially given how difficult the transition from college to the pros is for OL. Expecting 1, if not 2, rookie OL to not only be day 1 starters, but IMPACT day 1 starters, is a little far-fetched for me to put much faith in, although stranger things have certainly happened.

My main indifference is based on WHO is setting these "tiers" of players and formulating these draft strategies. First, giving grades to players and having a philosophy for not (overly) reaching for need is not some radical, new approach to the draft that Richard created. In fact, the vast majority of teams in the league do the EXACT same thing, and have been doing so for a very long time. The difference is, obviously, a team's ability to correctly assess and grade these players. That's what separates the haves from the have-nots, not some unique approach to drafting players.

Second, I differ from most here in how I judge a teams front office success. I don't give a rat's ass about how many Pro Bowl players are drafted or how many games started said players compile in their careers. If the team doesn't WIN playoff games, then the personnel department and/or coaching staff are NOT doing their jobs effectively. Period. 2 playoff wins in 13 years is considered atrocious by most objective standards. I can't recall how many times the Patriots led the league in Pro Bowl players or leading the league in games-started-by-draftees, but I do know they lead the league (by a HUGE margin) in Championships this century. Truly great teams (the whole) EXCEED the sum of it's parts. The Vikings' parts seldom even add up to the expected sum, let alone exceed it. 

I use the pro bowl players and number of starters metrics because those seem to be the drivers in the analyses I've been seeing on numerous Pro Football sites to grade a team's draft "success" over a certain time frame. Why do I think that approach is incredibly flawed? I give you 3 players : Blair Walsh, Corderelle Patterson and Teddy Bridgewater. All 3 were "Pro Bowlers" and 2 were starters (not sure if KR's are considered starters or if Paterson may have started a few games)  for several years. Can anyone TRULY claim that the team's ACTUAL results during their respective tenures with the Vikings  warrants the expenditure of the SEVEN draft picks that were needed to acquire these 3 players? I say absolutely NOT, but all 3 drastically skew the metrics and make them appear to be more successful draft selections than they actually WERE. (I purposely highlighted actual results, because you can't use what TB MIGHT have done in 2016/17)

Lastly, as I stated in my opening paragraph, is it reasonable to EXPECT the Vikings value board to coincide EXACTLY with their needs? That for all, or for at least 2 out of the first 3 picks, that the hallowed Spielman tiered board will align perfectly with the teams needs and players available? That an OT they have ranked 18 or higher will be there at 18 (without a higher ranked player available, of course). Or an OG that they rank, say 30, will be there at 50? Seriously? If anyone here truly has that expectation, I have some wonderful oceanfront property in Nebraska that I can sell you at a great price. If they do indeed select 2 OL in the first 3 rounds, I'm gonna have to call BS that they adhered religiously to their rankings, although I have NO doubt that will be the schpiel at the press conference(s), "We couldn't BELIEVE so-and-so was still there at pick such-and-such!"

We'll see how far the Vikings are able to go in the 2019 playoffs (if they make it at all), because that is the only true way to judge the success or failure of this draft (Ricky himself stated they need immediate, impact, year 1 players from this draft). I personally think that it  SHOULD take a playoff "run" (meaning at least 2 playoff WINS) to save Ricky's and Zim's jobs. But, should they crap the bed yet again, I have a sneaking suspicion that Richard will once again find yet one more sacrificial lamb and emerge unscathed from another car-wreck of a season. That is the one aspect of his overall performance during his time with the Vikings that I give him an A+ grade, no doubt about it.

Regardless, the draft should have some mildly compelling story lines, but I'll occupy my time with something more interesting and productive, like filing down the corns on my pinkey toes.

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"suncoastvike" said: It's funny how unexcited I am for the draft this year. Guess it's been a while since I've felt the real excitement I used to. Maybe because they've drawn it out over 3 days and starting on a Thursday. Maybe it's just because I've learned that picks don't turn out like you expect when then actually play. Maybe it's just this year because they really need the unexciting Olinemen and if they don't get 1 or 2, even the more exciting picks will seem bad. I'll follow along tomorrow just not the same now.

I don't get caught up in watching the Draft anymore, haven't for about 10 years now. 
Watching it on TV is such a colossal time suck, interwoven with contrived filler that is just diarrhea of the mouth. 

Very interested in who they select, but absolutely don't care about viewing it on TV.

These statements sum up my feeling now and like the last 10 years or so. What's funny is they've always been true but I did used to sit thru all the sh!t they spew in eager anticipation. For our picks and other teams as well. Your right with a phone in your hand who needs it.