Theilen/KC discussion

Take a chance and let it go to the endzone.  Stop holding the ball down.  We can take it away from the defender.
I'm going deep in that situation.

Something like that.

I'm open. Throw the F'ing ball!

@"jargomcfargo" said: I'm open. Throw the F'ing ball!

Chuck it up there dawg, I'll go get it!

They cain't jump with me homie

Well, I think if you watch the actual play you will see Thielen cut inside then outside at the top of his route in order to get to the sideline.  Cousins threw it to where he was suppose to be and did not have time to wait for him to do a double move at the top of the route.
That is what Cousins was saying to him about the route.  His hand demonstration clearly was telling Thielen to stick his foot in the ground and cut to the outside on that route.  He also said he did not have "10 seconds" (exaggeration obviously) but it meant he does not have the time.
http://www.1500espn.com/news/2018/12/nothing-see-cousins-thielen-attempt-dismiss-sideline-argument/
None of the videos show the play but Thielen cut in one step and then out one step at the top of his route.  And he rounded the second step a bit.  Cousins had to throw to where the play was designed.  He had no time.
Thielen even down played it here but most who really want to blame everything on Cousins will dismiss this too

https://www.vikings.com/video/thielen-on-sideline-conversation-with-cousins-what-went-wrong-this-season
Sometimes the receiver has to get to the top of his route and plant his foot and make the cut.  There is often not enough time from the QBs side of the play to wait for him to make more moves in order to get open.

Problem with the "I don't have time" thing is.... he did.  There was zero pressure on him when he threw it. He was staring at Adam's side of the field the whole time.  From the snap of the ball to his release it was 2.75 or so seconds.  To say he threw it to a spot because he didn't have time or see where is receiver was is bullshit.  Cousins played poorly and blamed his receiver(s).  THAT will be an issue going forward if he doesn't own up to his mistakes when he makes them.  The Vikings were down 13 and needed a TD going into the half and Cousins was wound up way to tight to make plays. 

I posted this in another thread just after the game...  If you have the game watch from the 1:18 left in the second quarter mark.  Or find it on YT and watch it. 

Watching Kirk tell Adam how to run his route gives the impression that
Kirk does not see the field. Just a few plays earlier he missed Adam by
placing the ball in the wrong spot. Adam had a possible touchdown if
the ball was more towards the middle of the field but Cousins threw it
straight down the hash marks and led him into double coverage instead of
away from it. Luckily the defender grabbed Adam's face mask and was
flagged for it, technically it was pass interference but we're the
Vikings and refs suck shit. Anyway, Cousins then hits Diggs after he
rolls out. The pass was high and off the mark but Diggs stretches out
to make the catch. The next play Cousins misses Cook, throwing it to
the wrong side of the running back. You can see both Cousins and Cook
"complaining" after the miss. Cousins pocket was clean, with zero
pressure and he misses basically a LoS "swing pass" to a running back.
You can see Kirk telling Cook to "go upfield". Clearly he thought Cook
would be further up field and didn't "see" where his RB actually was.
Since Cook was left alone I would place most of the blame on him as he
should have been where his QB expected him to be. However, Kirk needs
to be able to adjust a throw, at anytime. Kirk's reaction is, he
clearly blames his receiver. The next play Kirk misses Adam by 5
yards(at least) and that leads to the exchange that was posted. Four
passes that our QB was "off" on but he clearly thinks his throws are not
the problem. This will not build the chemistry needed to become a
tight unit that has each other's back. Fingers will be pointed, blame
will be tossed around and nothing will get fixed. Kirk needs to be the
leader that works with his targets, not his daily planner. Humans are
messy, and do not follow patterns exactly, a good QB can adjust to their
receivers, a good QB can throw a receiver open. It seems Kirk is 0 for
2 in that category... at least in this sample. One of his most
important games and he did not play well... at all. Ask yourself
this... how many stories do you hear about a QB that is wound too tight
winning the big game? I cannot remember any. I mostly remember stories
about how the QB is calm, collected and in charge in the huddle that
inspires players... that is the leader this team needs. I do not see
that in Kirk.

The recievers have to be on thE same page as the QB and the timing has to be right.  Adam has to run that route the way it's run in practice so KC can get the ball out and hit him in stride or that's a pick.  If adam is going to freelance the route any QB will be throwing to an empty spot of the field at best.  Adam can't assume that the liNE will hold up and give KC time to stand there.  If the route called for the extra stuff that's one thing,  but given how poorly our line has protected,  I wouldn't be calling for routes that had KC holding the ball more than 2 Mississippi. 

The QB may not always be right in terms of what route goes on what play,  but if  a QB wants a rute run a certain  way,  then it's up to the receiver to do it that way... that was pretty clear from Favres time here and listening to the receivers talk about it.

Especially out cutting routes,  those are pick 6s if they aren't on time and on the money.

Lip readers claim Kirk said, "I haven't got ten seconds", so I think Adam was saying something like "throw it on the count of ten and I would have been there". But 10 seconds was way too much to expect from our line.  I wonder if Kirk actually said "seven seconds" or...maybe "two seconds".

Watch at 1:13 remaining in Q2. Once Kirk escapes the pocket Thielen immediately turns his route back to about the 10 yard line where he is a readily available target and honestly the safer throw if ball placement leaves it towards the sideline. 

The frustration isn't solely due to that one play though. I think it finally boiled over because Kirk typically will only take the underneath pass when flushed out of the pocket. There are many examples where he has open receivers down the field but he takes whats underneath because its the "check down". It's really something that's plagued Kirk going back to his days in Washington (minus the year with McVay). 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't see the field and I partially agree with it. But bigger picture after being pressured so much all season long it finally got into his head that he just needs to take the first man available vs. trying to push the ball down the field. Kirk was a very different (timid) player compared to the guy we saw in say weeks 1 or 2. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Watch at 1:13 remaining in Q2. Once Kirk escapes the pocket Thielen immediately turns his route back to about the 10 yard line where he is a readily available target and honestly the safer throw if ball placement leaves it towards the sideline. 

The frustration isn't solely due to that one play though. I think it finally boiled over because Kirk typically will only take the underneath pass when flushed out of the pocket. There are many examples where he has open receivers down the field but he takes whats underneath because its the "check down". It's really something that's plagued Kirk going back to his days in Washington (minus the year with McVay). 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't see the field and I partially agree with it. But bigger picture after being pressured so much all season long it finally got into his head that he just needs to take the first man available vs. trying to push the ball down the field. Kirk was a very different (timid) player compared to the guy we saw in say weeks 1 or 2. 

He put up the numbers, but 2019 will be the year he can be truly evaluated, for better or worse. Minnesota better either elevate Sloter to the #2 QB this season or draft a potential guy so the team is ready to move on from Cousins after the 2020 season if this experiment doesn't pan out. Sloter's athleticism and arm strength you'd think would be a good fit for today's NFL outside of the HOF guys like Brees and Brady. Sloter is still just 24 years old so its not like he'd be old to take over the reigns potentially in the near future. He'd certainly have enough seasoning at that point.

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Watch at 1:13 remaining in Q2. Once Kirk escapes the pocket Thielen immediately turns his route back to about the 10 yard line where he is a readily available target and honestly the safer throw if ball placement leaves it towards the sideline. 

The frustration isn't solely due to that one play though. I think it finally boiled over because Kirk typically will only take the underneath pass when flushed out of the pocket. There are many examples where he has open receivers down the field but he takes whats underneath because its the "check down". It's really something that's plagued Kirk going back to his days in Washington (minus the year with McVay). 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't see the field and I partially agree with it. But bigger picture after being pressured so much all season long it finally got into his head that he just needs to take the first man available vs. trying to push the ball down the field. Kirk was a very different (timid) player compared to the guy we saw in say weeks 1 or 2. 

But it seemed that he would settle down about halfway through the 2nd quarter.  That I just don't understand.

@"greediron" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Watch at 1:13 remaining in Q2. Once Kirk escapes the pocket Thielen immediately turns his route back to about the 10 yard line where he is a readily available target and honestly the safer throw if ball placement leaves it towards the sideline. 

The frustration isn't solely due to that one play though. I think it finally boiled over because Kirk typically will only take the underneath pass when flushed out of the pocket. There are many examples where he has open receivers down the field but he takes whats underneath because its the "check down". It's really something that's plagued Kirk going back to his days in Washington (minus the year with McVay). 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't see the field and I partially agree with it. But bigger picture after being pressured so much all season long it finally got into his head that he just needs to take the first man available vs. trying to push the ball down the field. Kirk was a very different (timid) player compared to the guy we saw in say weeks 1 or 2. 

Especially during the first and second quarter the last few games.  Was that maybe because of the new OC and a lack of trust in the play call?  KC was staring at the rush even when he had time, he looked like Ponder trying to find an escape route instead of throwing the ball. 

But it seemed that he would settle down about halfway through the 2nd quarter.  That I just don't understand.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Watch at 1:13 remaining in Q2. Once Kirk escapes the pocket Thielen immediately turns his route back to about the 10 yard line where he is a readily available target and honestly the safer throw if ball placement leaves it towards the sideline. 

The frustration isn't solely due to that one play though. I think it finally boiled over because Kirk typically will only take the underneath pass when flushed out of the pocket. There are many examples where he has open receivers down the field but he takes whats underneath because its the "check down". It's really something that's plagued Kirk going back to his days in Washington (minus the year with McVay). 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't see the field and I partially agree with it. But bigger picture after being pressured so much all season long it finally got into his head that he just needs to take the first man available vs. trying to push the ball down the field. Kirk was a very different (timid) player compared to the guy we saw in say weeks 1 or 2. 

Especially during the first and second quarter the last few games.  Was that maybe because of the new OC and a lack of trust in the play call?  KC was staring at the rush even when he had time, he looked like Ponder trying to find an escape route instead of throwing the ball. 

But it seemed that he would settle down about halfway through the 2nd quarter.  That I just don't understand.

its an instinct that has to be unlearned now.  no different than a kid that gets smacked all the time,  anytime they hear a loud voice or somebody makes a sudden movement they flinch.... well KC got hit so much this year he is suffering from it.  we have seen the same thing from other QBs,  early on they stand in there and take the punishment,  but over time they start to rush throws,  have their mechanics get out of whack,  tuck and run to soon,  take check downs to early...etc.   I said in early december that the team maybe needed to admit that this wasnt their year and to get Sloter some experience since KC was looking shell shocked already by then and there werent going to be any magic fixes to that OL.... of course our slim playoff hopes won out,  but in hingsight I still think it would have maybe been a better option since the kid has really no bright lights experience.

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Watch at 1:13 remaining in Q2. Once Kirk escapes the pocket Thielen immediately turns his route back to about the 10 yard line where he is a readily available target and honestly the safer throw if ball placement leaves it towards the sideline. 

The frustration isn't solely due to that one play though. I think it finally boiled over because Kirk typically will only take the underneath pass when flushed out of the pocket. There are many examples where he has open receivers down the field but he takes whats underneath because its the "check down". It's really something that's plagued Kirk going back to his days in Washington (minus the year with McVay). 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't see the field and I partially agree with it. But bigger picture after being pressured so much all season long it finally got into his head that he just needs to take the first man available vs. trying to push the ball down the field. Kirk was a very different (timid) player compared to the guy we saw in say weeks 1 or 2. 

Especially during the first and second quarter the last few games.  Was that maybe because of the new OC and a lack of trust in the play call?  KC was staring at the rush even when he had time, he looked like Ponder trying to find an escape route instead of throwing the ball. 

But it seemed that he would settle down about halfway through the 2nd quarter.  That I just don't understand.

its an instinct that has to be unlearned now.  no different than a kid that gets smacked all the time,  anytime they hear a loud voice or somebody makes a sudden movement they flinch.... well KC got hit so much this year he is suffering from it.  we have seen the same thing from other QBs,  early on they stand in there and take the punishment,  but over time they start to rush throws,  have their mechanics get out of whack,  tuck and run to soon,  take check downs to early...etc.   I said in early december that the team maybe needed to admit that this wasnt their year and to get Sloter some experience since KC was looking shell shocked already by then and there werent going to be any magic fixes to that OL.... of course our slim playoff hopes won out,  but in hingsight I still think it would have maybe been a better option since the kid has really no bright lights experience.

But why would he settle down and play when the rush heated up?  After the offense crapped the bed for 2 quarters and left the defense in bad spots, he would suddenly start to figure it out and play better.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Watch at 1:13 remaining in Q2. Once Kirk escapes the pocket Thielen immediately turns his route back to about the 10 yard line where he is a readily available target and honestly the safer throw if ball placement leaves it towards the sideline. 

The frustration isn't solely due to that one play though. I think it finally boiled over because Kirk typically will only take the underneath pass when flushed out of the pocket. There are many examples where he has open receivers down the field but he takes whats underneath because its the "check down". It's really something that's plagued Kirk going back to his days in Washington (minus the year with McVay). 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't see the field and I partially agree with it. But bigger picture after being pressured so much all season long it finally got into his head that he just needs to take the first man available vs. trying to push the ball down the field. Kirk was a very different (timid) player compared to the guy we saw in say weeks 1 or 2. 

Especially during the first and second quarter the last few games.  Was that maybe because of the new OC and a lack of trust in the play call?  KC was staring at the rush even when he had time, he looked like Ponder trying to find an escape route instead of throwing the ball. 

But it seemed that he would settle down about halfway through the 2nd quarter.  That I just don't understand.

its an instinct that has to be unlearned now.  no different than a kid that gets smacked all the time,  anytime they hear a loud voice or somebody makes a sudden movement they flinch.... well KC got hit so much this year he is suffering from it.  we have seen the same thing from other QBs,  early on they stand in there and take the punishment,  but over time they start to rush throws,  have their mechanics get out of whack,  tuck and run to soon,  take check downs to early...etc.   I said in early december that the team maybe needed to admit that this wasnt their year and to get Sloter some experience since KC was looking shell shocked already by then and there werent going to be any magic fixes to that OL.... of course our slim playoff hopes won out,  but in hingsight I still think it would have maybe been a better option since the kid has really no bright lights experience.

But why would he settle down and play when the rush heated up?  After the offense crapped the bed for 2 quarters and left the defense in bad spots, he would suddenly start to figure it out and play better.

the changes are made to his protection?  the defenses have backed off and are trying more to take away his options than to bury him?   I dont know,  but I know he isnt right in the head for the job and hasnt been mentally up to the task for quite a while this year.

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Watch at 1:13 remaining in Q2. Once Kirk escapes the pocket Thielen immediately turns his route back to about the 10 yard line where he is a readily available target and honestly the safer throw if ball placement leaves it towards the sideline. 

The frustration isn't solely due to that one play though. I think it finally boiled over because Kirk typically will only take the underneath pass when flushed out of the pocket. There are many examples where he has open receivers down the field but he takes whats underneath because its the "check down". It's really something that's plagued Kirk going back to his days in Washington (minus the year with McVay). 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't see the field and I partially agree with it. But bigger picture after being pressured so much all season long it finally got into his head that he just needs to take the first man available vs. trying to push the ball down the field. Kirk was a very different (timid) player compared to the guy we saw in say weeks 1 or 2. 

Especially during the first and second quarter the last few games.  Was that maybe because of the new OC and a lack of trust in the play call?  KC was staring at the rush even when he had time, he looked like Ponder trying to find an escape route instead of throwing the ball. 

But it seemed that he would settle down about halfway through the 2nd quarter.  That I just don't understand.

its an instinct that has to be unlearned now.  no different than a kid that gets smacked all the time,  anytime they hear a loud voice or somebody makes a sudden movement they flinch.... well KC got hit so much this year he is suffering from it.  we have seen the same thing from other QBs,  early on they stand in there and take the punishment,  but over time they start to rush throws,  have their mechanics get out of whack,  tuck and run to soon,  take check downs to early...etc.   I said in early december that the team maybe needed to admit that this wasnt their year and to get Sloter some experience since KC was looking shell shocked already by then and there werent going to be any magic fixes to that OL.... of course our slim playoff hopes won out,  but in hingsight I still think it would have maybe been a better option since the kid has really no bright lights experience.

But why would he settle down and play when the rush heated up?  After the offense crapped the bed for 2 quarters and left the defense in bad spots, he would suddenly start to figure it out and play better.

the changes are made to his protection?  the defenses have backed off and are trying more to take away his options than to bury him?   I dont know,  but I know he isnt right in the head for the job and hasnt been mentally up to the task for quite a while this year.

Defenses don't tend to back off with a lead, they tend to turn up the heat. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Watch at 1:13 remaining in Q2. Once Kirk escapes the pocket Thielen immediately turns his route back to about the 10 yard line where he is a readily available target and honestly the safer throw if ball placement leaves it towards the sideline. 

The frustration isn't solely due to that one play though. I think it finally boiled over because Kirk typically will only take the underneath pass when flushed out of the pocket. There are many examples where he has open receivers down the field but he takes whats underneath because its the "check down". It's really something that's plagued Kirk going back to his days in Washington (minus the year with McVay). 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't see the field and I partially agree with it. But bigger picture after being pressured so much all season long it finally got into his head that he just needs to take the first man available vs. trying to push the ball down the field. Kirk was a very different (timid) player compared to the guy we saw in say weeks 1 or 2. 

Especially during the first and second quarter the last few games.  Was that maybe because of the new OC and a lack of trust in the play call?  KC was staring at the rush even when he had time, he looked like Ponder trying to find an escape route instead of throwing the ball. 

But it seemed that he would settle down about halfway through the 2nd quarter.  That I just don't understand.

its an instinct that has to be unlearned now.  no different than a kid that gets smacked all the time,  anytime they hear a loud voice or somebody makes a sudden movement they flinch.... well KC got hit so much this year he is suffering from it.  we have seen the same thing from other QBs,  early on they stand in there and take the punishment,  but over time they start to rush throws,  have their mechanics get out of whack,  tuck and run to soon,  take check downs to early...etc.   I said in early december that the team maybe needed to admit that this wasnt their year and to get Sloter some experience since KC was looking shell shocked already by then and there werent going to be any magic fixes to that OL.... of course our slim playoff hopes won out,  but in hingsight I still think it would have maybe been a better option since the kid has really no bright lights experience.

Cousins was slingin’ it ‘till coach Flip told him: “there’s a lot of peoples livelihoods in your hands every time you drop back” Cousins was never the same, unfortunately... turns out Flip was prescient on that one!