Too much volume in offensive playbook

I don't really get that comment. The teams that are successful on O appear to have volume in the playbook. Vikings still look like they cannot decide if they want to be the 82 redskins (Zimmer) or set up the run with the pass (JDF). I know they do not have a line that will wear people down so that throws out the 82 redskins scenario.

@"kmillard" said: I don't really get that comment. The teams that are successful on O appear to have volume in the playbook. Vikings still look like they cannot decide if they want to be the 82 redskins (Zimmer) or set up the run with the pass (JDF). I know they do not have a line that will wear people down so that throws out the 82 redskins scenario.

Me either. This sounds like a grumpy old man comment by Z that is a little out of touch. These are the kinds of things that concern me about Zimmer.

"I've asked several players if they're listening to me or not, or if they quit listening to me," Zimmer said. "And not just them. I didn't ask them 'Do you?' but 'Did these guys stop listening to me?' and they said 'No.'

This comment also stuck out to me. I am wondering why he is asking. Because he also said in the presser that "the players are either not listening to me, not paying attention or don't care." Something to think about.

Honestly, I've been largely unimpressed with DeFillipo's game plans and play calling most of the year.  Let's face the facts...  we don't have an identity on offense.  I don't recall one game this season where it seemed like the Vikings offense was in control all game.  We've started fast in some games, but then we struggle to score points in the 2nd half or vice versa.  Something needs to change and this team absolutely needs to figure out how to run the football.
I thought we'd see a diverse offense that confused defenses with RPOs, misdirection plays, etc...  did he leave those plays in Philly?

Why are other teams successful in getting the ball to their backs as receivers?  The Aint's would be nowhere without Kamara.  He takes so much pressure off of Brees and Thomas and is a big reason why Brees' jersey is clean after the game.
I'll say it again, if the new NFL loves hybrid backs, and DeFillipo is this young, offensive genius, why aren't Cook and Boone used more this way?

Wetlander, you need time for misdirection to work. RBs, FBs, TEs,.Slot WRs, all of them get lost in the scrum and appear like magic past the trenches. But you need to at least have a stalemate at the Line long enough for that to happen.

When your interior is immediately blown up there's no scrum to sneak through. Just a wall of Defenders waiting to legally knock you down or off your route.

Ralphie, Cook is just not in the same league as a route runner or receiver as Hunt, Kamara, etc. It's why I lamented the loss of Jet. There's nobody on this roster that even has what D-Flip had in Philly with Clement.

I'm not saying Dalvin can't ever be that guy. But he just wasn't asked to do that in college and it will take some time. And that's only if he stays healthy.

@"FSUVike" said: Wetlander, you need time for misdirection to work. RBs, FBs, TEs,.Slot WRs, all of them get lost in the scrum and appear like magic past the trenches. But you need to at least have a stalemate at the Line long enough for that to happen.

When your interior is immediately blown up there's no scrum to sneak through. Just a wall of Defenders waiting to legally knock you down or off your route.

Ralphie, Cook is just not in the same league as a route runner or receiver as Hunt, Kamara, etc. It's why I lamented the loss of Jet. There's nobody on this roster that even has what D-Flip had in Philly with Clement.

I'm not saying Dalvin can't ever be that guy. But he just wasn't asked to do that in college and it will take some time. And that's only if he stays healthy.

RPOs and misdirection plays are all meant to confuse and slow down the defense...  look at Kansas City with the motioning Tyreek down the line before the snap and sometimes they hand it to him on an end around, other times they pitch it out to Hunt going the opposite direction, sometimes they throw it...  it's all meant to confuse the defense and get the DL and LBs to hold their spots for that half second needed to get to the edge or create a hole.
Last year, we were great at running multiple plays out of the same formation and catching defenses off-guard. This season I've seen bubble screens and end-arounds with WRs...  the problem is we keep going to the same play instead of doing something else off of it to keep the defense guessing.  I don't see any imagination out of this offense and that was what we were all sold when the Vikings hired Flip...
I see nothing that resembles the Philly offense under Pederson and Reich (remember Flip was just the QB coach)...  and I'm confused about your Clement comment...  he isn't even a big part of Philly's offense... and he's been used more as a change of pace rusher than a pass catching RB...  are you confusing him with Sproles or Smallwood?

Probably. My.point is that this team doesn't have an elite pass catching RB like the offensive juggernauts do.

Philly doesn't look like Philly anymore either, BTW. So that style of play calling is either dependent on Frank Reich or on not having a crappy O-Line. And with all the injuries the Eagles Line isn't playing well at all.

But your point is spot on about being multiple out of the same formation. The Rams run a million different plays out of 11 Personnel. Why can't D-Flip?

@"FSUVike" said:

Ralphie, Cook is just not in the same league as a route runner or receiver as Hunt, Kamara, etc. It's why I lamented the loss of Jet. There's nobody on this roster that even has what D-Flip had in Philly with Clement.

I'm not saying Dalvin can't ever be that guy. But he just wasn't asked to do that in college and it will take some time. And that's only if he stays healthy.

Thanks, FSU and I do agree Cook or Boone is no Kamara, but as from what I have seen, they are very capable receivers.  And as Wetlander notes, DeFillipo's love of WR screens borders on obsession with little to show for it. 
I know there's a lot of woulda-coulda-shoulda in our frustrated comments, but great Odin's ghost, I want to see some more creativity out of this offense. 

Because Flip was associated with Pederson's offensive genious, we assumed he was a big part of that scheme's design and would bring that with him. What we see out of the Flip offense doesn't resemble any of that. He has been a large disappointment so far. 

How does one simplify run run pass...? 

@"Vikergirl" said: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25326205/too-much-volume-vikings-offensive-playbook?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is something I agree with completely. Keep it simple stupid. Anyone who watches the Rams offense at work should understand simplicity is king because it allows for more consistant execution. Also a great thing about running tons of plays out of the same formation is the fact you give the D the same look presnap which doesn't allow them to really know what you are going to do if you have 4 or 5 plays that are ran with great execution. But I hope Zimmer realizes that if you run the ball for no gain or a loss of yards on first down perhaps you shouldn't be running it as much or at all even. I always remember that MNF game in 2006 against the Patriots and they essentially didn't run the ball at all. You can win by not running the damn football. Short passes can control the clock too.

@"StickyBun" said:

@"kmillard" said: I don't really get that comment. The teams that are successful on O appear to have volume in the playbook. Vikings still look like they cannot decide if they want to be the 82 redskins (Zimmer) or set up the run with the pass (JDF). I know they do not have a line that will wear people down so that throws out the 82 redskins scenario.

Me either. This sounds like a grumpy old man comment by Z that is a little out of touch. These are the kinds of things that concern me about Zimmer.

Did we get sold on a idea that Flip was going to be young and innovative like Doug?  Well to do that he might have to get a bit more assertive. I see a offense that reflects Zimmer not Pederson. I seen Pat do more with Case then Flip with Kirk. I keep coming to the notion that Pat had more free reign then Flip. Pat expanded the playbook as the year went on. Zimmer says he wants to shrink it. Who runs this offense? Pat had a resume of being both a OC and former HC. Flip might not have the same free reign Mike gave Pat. This offense seems to reflect Mike's personality. Which was why I never wanted Mike to have anything to do with the offense.

@"suncoastvike" said: Did we get sold on a idea that Flip was going to be young and innovative like Doug?  Well to do that he might have to get a bit more assertive. I see a offense that reflects Zimmer not Pederson. I seen Pat do more with Case then Flip with Kirk. I keep coming to the notion that Pat had more free reign then Flip. Pat expanded the playbook as the year went on. Zimmer says he wants to shrink it. Who runs this offense? Pat had a resume of being both a OC and former HC. Flip might not have the same free reign Mike gave Pat. This offense seems to reflect Mike's personality. Which was why I never wanted Mike to have anything to do with the offense.

I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

@"matt4787" said:

@"suncoastvike" said: Did we get sold on a idea that Flip was going to be young and innovative like Doug?  Well to do that he might have to get a bit more assertive. I see a offense that reflects Zimmer not Pederson. I seen Pat do more with Case then Flip with Kirk. I keep coming to the notion that Pat had more free reign then Flip. Pat expanded the playbook as the year went on. Zimmer says he wants to shrink it. Who runs this offense? Pat had a resume of being both a OC and former HC. Flip might not have the same free reign Mike gave Pat. This offense seems to reflect Mike's personality. Which was why I never wanted Mike to have anything to do with the offense.

I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

@"matt4787" said:

I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

Forcing Flip to run more...???
Does the Vikings offense this season look like a Zimmer offense?  I would say absolutely not.  Zimmer's offensive philosophy is to establish the run, control the clock, and take care of the football (limit turnovers).  We've been extremely pass heavy in too many of our games and it hasn't resulted in many wins. 
Look at our losses...
Bills - 4 rushing attempts by our RBs and 55 passes...  we scored 6 points and lost in embarrassing fashion.
Rams - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and Cousins was our leading rusher... 50 passing attempts.
Saints - 19 rushing attempts and 41 pass attempts.  Turnovers doomed us in this game, but we actually had good balance in the first half and should have went into halftime with a 16-10 or 20-10 lead if Thielen doesn't fumble deep inside the red zone.  We went pass heavy in the 2nd half and lost.
Bears - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and 46 pass attempts.  Put up 20 points.
In all our losses (and the Packers tie), we've failed to hit 20 rushing attempts...

Now check out our wins...
49ers - 28 rushes (I've excluded Kirks rushing attempts in all these) to 36 pass attempts.  Good balance. Won by 8.
Eagles - 18 rushes to 37 pass attempts.  Close win by 2.
Cardinals - 28 rushes to 34 pass attempts.  Good balance again.  Won by 10.
Jets - 22 rushes and 40 pass attempts.  We stayed committed to the run and won by 20.
Lions - 21 rushes and 22 pass attempts.  Good balance.  Won by 15.
If you want a quick summary, we average 48 pass attempts and 13 rushing attempts in our losses (and tie).  That's a 78/22 passing to rushing split.  In our wins, we average 34 pass attempts and 23.4 rushing attempts.  That's a 59/41 passing to rushing split.  Much more balanced, but still no where close to the 54% and 51% splits we had in 2017 (13-3) and 2015 (11-5).
If anything, I'd say this offense has more Flip's fingerprints all over it than Mike Zimmer...  and it's pretty evident when we throw a lot, we end up losing more often than we win.
You need to have a balanced offense to win in the NFL.  The Rams, Saints, and Chiefs all have prolific passing games, but guess what...  they are ranked 2nd, 6th, and 8th in rushing this season.
I actually hope Zimmer tells Flip we need to run more and they figure out how to establish an effective rushing attack.  Whether that means changing personnel, formations, etc...  they need to get an effective running game going to take pressure off of Cousins and get this offense to the next level.

@"Wetlander" said:

@"matt4787" said:

I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

Forcing Flip to run more...???
Does the Vikings offense this season look like a Zimmer offense?  I would say absolutely not.  Zimmer's offensive philosophy is to establish the run, control the clock, and take care of the football (limit turnovers).  We've been extremely pass heavy in too many of our games and it hasn't resulted in many wins. 
Look at our losses...
Bills - 4 rushing attempts by our RBs and 55 passes...  we scored 6 points and lost in embarrassing fashion.
Rams - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and Cousins was our leading rusher... 50 passing attempts.
Saints - 19 rushing attempts and 41 pass attempts.  Turnovers doomed us in this game, but we actually had good balance in the first half and should have went into halftime with a 16-10 or 20-10 lead if Thielen doesn't fumble deep inside the red zone.  We went pass heavy in the 2nd half and lost.
Bears - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and 46 pass attempts.  Put up 20 points.
In all our losses (and the Packers tie), we've failed to hit 20 rushing attempts...

Now check out our wins...
49ers - 28 rushes (I've excluded Kirks rushing attempts in all these) to 36 pass attempts.  Good balance. Won by 8.
Eagles - 18 rushes to 37 pass attempts.  Close win by 2.
Cardinals - 28 rushes to 34 pass attempts.  Good balance again.  Won by 10.
Jets - 22 rushes and 40 pass attempts.  We stayed committed to the run and won by 20.
Lions - 21 rushes and 22 pass attempts.  Good balance.  Won by 15.
If you want a quick summary, we average 48 pass attempts and 13 rushing attempts in our losses (and tie).  That's a 78/22 passing to rushing split.  In our wins, we average 34 pass attempts and 23.4 rushing attempts.  That's a 59/41 passing to rushing split.  Much more balanced, but still no where close to the 54% and 51% splits we had in 2017 (13-3) and 2015 (11-5).
If anything, I'd say this offense has more Flip's fingerprints all over it than Mike Zimmer...  and it's pretty evident when we throw a lot, we end up losing more often than we win.
You need to have a balanced offense to win in the NFL.  The Rams, Saints, and Chiefs all have prolific passing games, but guess what...  they are ranked 2nd, 6th, and 8th in rushing this season.
I actually hope Zimmer tells Flip we need to run more and they figure out how to establish an effective rushing attack.  Whether that means changing personnel, formations, etc...  they need to get an effective running game going to take pressure off of Cousins and get this offense to the next level.

@"matt4787" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25326205/too-much-volume-vikings-offensive-playbook?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is something I agree with completely. Keep it simple stupid. Anyone who watches the Rams offense at work should understand simplicity is king because it allows for more consistant execution. Also a great thing about running tons of plays out of the same formation is the fact you give the D the same look presnap which doesn't allow them to really know what you are going to do if you have 4 or 5 plays that are ran with great execution. But I hope Zimmer realizes that if you run the ball for no gain or a loss of yards on first down perhaps you shouldn't be running it as much or at all even. I always remember that MNF game in 2006 against the Patriots and they essentially didn't run the ball at all. You can win by not running the damn football. Short passes can control the clock too.

@"FSUVike" said:

@"matt4787" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25326205/too-much-volume-vikings-offensive-playbook?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is something I agree with completely. Keep it simple stupid. Anyone who watches the Rams offense at work should understand simplicity is king because it allows for more consistant execution. Also a great thing about running tons of plays out of the same formation is the fact you give the D the same look presnap which doesn't allow them to really know what you are going to do if you have 4 or 5 plays that are ran with great execution. But I hope Zimmer realizes that if you run the ball for no gain or a loss of yards on first down perhaps you shouldn't be running it as much or at all even. I always remember that MNF game in 2006 against the Patriots and they essentially didn't run the ball at all. You can win by not running the damn football. Short passes can control the clock too.

The Rams can run a dozen different plays out of 11 Personnel because the Defense has to play run and pass. If Gurley wasn't picking up 4 yards per carry the Defenders could key more on route runners and guys in motion.

Against Minnesota you can play pass on every down and stop the rush on the way to the QB. Just like in the AP days.

Teams running all this effective misdirection are successful because of the threat of the run. Same with multiple plays out of 1 formation. 

The Vikings can't run the ball with any consistency because the Line sucks. With such an important facet shut down how can we really judge D-Flip's playcalling?