please for the love of god let this be zimmers last year

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Hidalgo" said: If the team hadn't got lucky with a 5th round WR and an undrafted WR, every fan would be calling for Zimmer and Spielman's heads. Getting lucky on a couple of wide receivers is ALL that keeps us from being on the same page.o

No kidding - take away the sheer luck of Thielen and Diggs falling in our lap, and Cousins would be throwing to Cordarelle Patterson and Laquon Treadwell, the guys Rick Spielman thought would be superstar WRs. Spielman defenders usually hold up Diggs and Thielen as examples of his personnel prowess, but they were just luck. If you really believe that Spielman "knew" Diggs was going to be a star, how do you explain that he passed him over 5 times, including for TJ Clemmings and MyCole Pruitt? "Hmmmm, there's a #1 WR still on the board, but I think his draft value is only round 5 so I will risk letting another team pick him so I can pick a scrub TE..." No, it was dumb luck. Spielman has had 16 5th round picks in 10 years and Diggs is the only one to even stick with the team. It's just a blind squirrel. I'm not calling for Zimmer's head - because he's at least above average and our last two HCs were well below that. But IF it ever came to him leaving, and Spielman wasn't riding out on the same rail, I would be at least as ticked as NJVike.

@"Purplewhizz" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Hidalgo" said: If the team hadn't got lucky with a 5th round WR and an undrafted WR, every fan would be calling for Zimmer and Spielman's heads. Getting lucky on a couple of wide receivers is ALL that keeps us from being on the same page.o

No kidding - take away the sheer luck of Thielen and Diggs falling in our lap, and Cousins would be throwing to Cordarelle Patterson and Laquon Treadwell, the guys Rick Spielman thought would be superstar WRs. Spielman defenders usually hold up Diggs and Thielen as examples of his personnel prowess, but they were just luck. If you really believe that Spielman "knew" Diggs was going to be a star, how do you explain that he passed him over 5 times, including for TJ Clemmings and MyCole Pruitt? "Hmmmm, there's a #1 WR still on the board, but I think his draft value is only round 5 so I will risk letting another team pick him so I can pick a scrub TE..." No, it was dumb luck. Spielman has had 16 5th round picks in 10 years and Diggs is the only one to even stick with the team. It's just a blind squirrel. I'm not calling for Zimmer's head - because he's at least above average and our last two HCs were well below that. But IF it ever came to him leaving, and Spielman wasn't riding out on the same rail, I would be at least as ticked as NJVike.

And basically, the only reason they have Thielan is because he grew up a Vikings fan and is from the area.  Decided to go to an open tryout.  If he was from Michigan he'd most likely be playing for the Lions.

Spielman doesn’t operate in a vacuum, it’s not like no one else rated these players similarly. 

Fans: nitpicky when the team wins, nitpicky when they lose. The worry that many had about the offensive line and right behind that, the offensive line depth, has come true. The run game is bad. Its obvious that this season is one of inconsistency and mediocrity. They nailed the QB position, so that is very good news moving forward. But lots to do this offseason and some talent is going to have to be allowed to leave to pay attention to a much neglected offensive line. 

@"StickyBun" said: Fans: nitpicky when the team wins, nitpicky when they lose. The worry that many had about the offensive line and right behind that, the offensive line depth, has come true. The run game is bad. Its obvious that this season is one of inconsistency and mediocrity. They nailed the QB position, so that is very good news moving forward. But lots to do this offseason and some talent is going to have to be allowed to leave to pay attention to a much neglected offensive line. 

The team tried a direction and the inury bug got them again.  Yes they could make improvements but it's not like the current issue would conclusively and necessarily be better.  Shit happens.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Fans: nitpicky when the team wins, nitpicky when they lose. The worry that many had about the offensive line and right behind that, the offensive line depth, has come true. The run game is bad. Its obvious that this season is one of inconsistency and mediocrity. They nailed the QB position, so that is very good news moving forward. But lots to do this offseason and some talent is going to have to be allowed to leave to pay attention to a much neglected offensive line. 

In fairness...how many teams could lose their top 2 LT, top 2 LG, and start the season with a back up center and show much better?  we talk constantly about the lack of overall talent at OL across the league.  I don't know that any team would be sitting much better at OL with all those injuries and who knows,  maybe of we had taken OL in the first as some continue to talk about,  as vikings they may have gotten hurt as well and we would be in the same boat.

The team tried a direction and the inury bug got them again.  Yes they could make improvements but it's not lie the current issue would conclusively and necessarily be better.  Shit happens.

@"StickyBun" said:

@"Maple Surple" said: Funny how earlier this same year, this same franchise, beat the same team by a small margin ( some might even dub it a miracle ) & No One in this thread was questiong anyone nor anything. Probably too busy running around cheering

This doesn't surprise you, does it? Fans are bipolar, everything is super great or absolutely sucks. Fire Zimmer. Blah blah blah. Highly emotional and too close to the trees. 

Zimmer totally strikes me as a Head Coach who allows the GM to tell him who starts and who doesn't.  Good call Zerk.

I wonder if in their interview with D-Flip they asked him if he would have a problem when Rick ordered him to keep Treadwell in the starting Lineup because he wasted a 1st on him and didn't want his ego bruised.

Or what Kirk's answer was when he was told not to sign with Minnesota unless he was comfortable targeting Laquon to make Rick feel beter.

Wondering about and questioning things are how a person learns.   Good start FSU.

=)

Who is Zim's boss again? 

You choose to not see things said in this thread about players and who has final say about them.  Rick a great double talker(smiley gladhander) so I doubt he even asked D-Flip about Treadwell.  And Kirk didn't have a good sample size last year to even know about Treadwell. 

But good ones.   

I think Spielman is a POS for the way he handled BRob and a few other vets... no arguements.  I think he has made some headscratchers that deserve to be scrutinized.  however I think he has done some good things as well and certainly has made some contributions to this team since he soley took the reins of the team,  however I dont think he makes game day decisions like who plays and who doesnt... he doesnt have that kind of power and Zim would have walked or spouted off by now if rick was putting his 2 cents where it doesnt belong.

@"JimmyinSD" said: I think Spielman is a POS for the way he handled BRob and a few other vets... no arguements.  I think he has made some headscratchers that deserve to be scrutinized.  however I think he has done some good things as well and certainly has made some contributions to this team since he soley took the reins of the team,  however I dont think he makes game day decisions like who plays and who doesnt... he doesnt have that kind of power and Zim would have walked or spouted off by now if rick was putting his 2 cents where it doesnt belong.

Treadwell plays because he is a solid #3.  Big bodied and has been fairly consistent since he hit bottom against GB.  The DB made a great play to swat that 4th down catch out of his hands.  Or is it only a great play when our DBs do that?  That wasn't the reason we lost.  Our two stud WRs made two crucial mistakes.  It happens.  Thielen needs to protect better when cutting back inside.  You have to know you are going to get blasted when you cut back inside.  Digg's mistake was bigger IMO.  That wasn't a great play by the defense (like Thielen's or Treadwell's mistake) it was just a boneheaded play.  He owned it and we move on, but it was a bad play that had a bad result.

So any anger at Treadwell should be secondary to anger directed at Adam and Diggs.

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: I think Spielman is a POS for the way he handled BRob and a few other vets... no arguements.  I think he has made some headscratchers that deserve to be scrutinized.  however I think he has done some good things as well and certainly has made some contributions to this team since he soley took the reins of the team,  however I dont think he makes game day decisions like who plays and who doesnt... he doesnt have that kind of power and Zim would have walked or spouted off by now if rick was putting his 2 cents where it doesnt belong.

Exactly.  For those that criticize Zim as out of touch and unwilling to change, yet think that he is Rick's lackey...  Baffling is the only thought that comes to mine. 

Treadwell plays because he is a solid #3.  Big bodied and has been fairly consistent since he hit bottom against GB.  The DB made a great play to swat that 4th down catch out of his hands.  Or is it only a great play when our DBs do that?  That wasn't the reason we lost.  Our two stud WRs made two crucial mistakes.  It happens.  Thielen needs to protect better when cutting back inside.  You have to know you are going to get blasted when you cut back inside.  Digg's mistake was bigger IMO.  That wasn't a great play by the defense (like Thielen's or Treadwell's mistake) it was just a boneheaded play.  He owned it and we move on, but it was a bad play that had a bad result.

So any anger at Treadwell should be secondary to anger directed at Adam and Diggs.

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: I think Spielman is a POS for the way he handled BRob and a few other vets... no arguements.  I think he has made some headscratchers that deserve to be scrutinized.  however I think he has done some good things as well and certainly has made some contributions to this team since he soley took the reins of the team,  however I dont think he makes game day decisions like who plays and who doesnt... he doesnt have that kind of power and Zim would have walked or spouted off by now if rick was putting his 2 cents where it doesnt belong.

Exactly.  For those that criticize Zim as out of touch and unwilling to change, yet think that he is Rick's lackey...  Baffling is the only thought that comes to mine. 

Treadwell plays because he is a solid #3.  Big bodied and has been fairly consistent since he hit bottom against GB.  The DB made a great play to swat that 4th down catch out of his hands.  Or is it only a great play when our DBs do that?  That wasn't the reason we lost.  Our two stud WRs made two crucial mistakes.  It happens.  Thielen needs to protect better when cutting back inside.  You have to know you are going to get blasted when you cut back inside.  Digg's mistake was bigger IMO.  That wasn't a great play by the defense (like Thielen's or Treadwell's mistake) it was just a boneheaded play.  He owned it and we move on, but it was a bad play that had a bad result.

So any anger at Treadwell should be secondary to anger directed at Adam and Diggs.

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: I think Spielman is a POS for the way he handled BRob and a few other vets... no arguements.  I think he has made some headscratchers that deserve to be scrutinized.  however I think he has done some good things as well and certainly has made some contributions to this team since he soley took the reins of the team,  however I dont think he makes game day decisions like who plays and who doesnt... he doesnt have that kind of power and Zim would have walked or spouted off by now if rick was putting his 2 cents where it doesnt belong.

Exactly.  For those that criticize Zim as out of touch and unwilling to change, yet think that he is Rick's lackey...  Baffling is the only thought that comes to mine. 

Treadwell plays because he is a solid #3.  Big bodied and has been fairly consistent since he hit bottom against GB.  The DB made a great play to swat that 4th down catch out of his hands.  Or is it only a great play when our DBs do that?  That wasn't the reason we lost.  Our two stud WRs made two crucial mistakes.  It happens.  Thielen needs to protect better when cutting back inside.  You have to know you are going to get blasted when you cut back inside.  Digg's mistake was bigger IMO.  That wasn't a great play by the defense (like Thielen's or Treadwell's mistake) it was just a boneheaded play.  He owned it and we move on, but it was a bad play that had a bad result.

So any anger at Treadwell should be secondary to anger directed at Adam and Diggs.

Except for the fact that Diggs and Thielen have long histories of producing for this team.  For Treadwell, it was just one more f*ck up in a long line of them and making tough contested catches was supposed to be his forte.  For the 3rd year in a row, he is being out-performed by the 4th string WR.  This year it is a 30 year old WR they signed off the street in mid-September.

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: I think Spielman is a POS for the way he handled BRob and a few other vets... no arguements.  I think he has made some headscratchers that deserve to be scrutinized.  however I think he has done some good things as well and certainly has made some contributions to this team since he soley took the reins of the team,  however I dont think he makes game day decisions like who plays and who doesnt... he doesnt have that kind of power and Zim would have walked or spouted off by now if rick was putting his 2 cents where it doesnt belong.

Exactly.  For those that criticize Zim as out of touch and unwilling to change, yet think that he is Rick's lackey...  Baffling is the only thought that comes to mine. 

Treadwell plays because he is a solid #3.  Big bodied and has been fairly consistent since he hit bottom against GB.  The DB made a great play to swat that 4th down catch out of his hands.  Or is it only a great play when our DBs do that?  That wasn't the reason we lost.  Our two stud WRs made two crucial mistakes.  It happens.  Thielen needs to protect better when cutting back inside.  You have to know you are going to get blasted when you cut back inside.  Digg's mistake was bigger IMO.  That wasn't a great play by the defense (like Thielen's or Treadwell's mistake) it was just a boneheaded play.  He owned it and we move on, but it was a bad play that had a bad result.

So any anger at Treadwell should be secondary to anger directed at Adam and Diggs.

Except for the fact that Diggs and Thielen have long histories of producing for this team.  For Treadwell, it was just one more f*ck up in a long line of them and making tough contested catches was supposed to be his forte.  For the 3rd year in a row, he is being out-performed by the 4th string WR.  This year it is a 30 year old WR they signed off the street in mid-September.

It's a business... It's a business... how many times have we heard that?  Could it be that Treadwell is seeing the field so hopefully he raises his stock before traded away?  And IF he improves a bunch..  then we can keep him?  What if he's already gone by the end of the season and all that other teams have on him is that he can't catch when counted on.  Do you think they'd be interested?  It makes good "business sense" to keep him out there and hope he gets better so you can get some value out of him, doesn't it?  

@"Bezerker88" said: It's a business... It's a business... how many times have we heard that?  Could it be that Treadwell is seeing the field so hopefully he raises his stock before traded away?  And IF he improves a bunch..  then we can keep him?  What if he's already gone by the end of the season and all that other teams have on him is that he can't catch when counted on.  Do you think they'd be interested?  It makes good "business sense" to keep him out there and hope he gets better so you can get some value out of him, doesn't it?  

Well...  some years the ball bounces your way and some it doesn't.   An idiot kicker in Green Bay, Cousins fumbling the game to the Bills, Theilan fumbling it to the Saints.  Heck, we lost two games to 2 teams that are a combined 14-1 and will probably meet in the NFCC next January.   None of this makes me want to "fire Zimmer!".   The franchise karma will never go away btw, it's product of when it was born.  Mistakes and miscues will always be our lot and winning the title is a longshot.   Nevertheless, the NFCN doesn't contain any juggernauts and we have as a good or better a shot than the Bears, Lions and Pukers.

And the Wilfs love them some RS and he ain't goin' anywhere.   I say this all the time but I guess if NJVike can rant the same crap about Speilman year in and year out then I can say my piece.   The brothers grimm from NJ stumbled around trying to run it themselves and gave us years of crappy football.   They gave RS the reins in 2012 and once they stopped forcing him to keep Les Frazier he gave us Zimmer, a good roster, and a chance.  That's all you can ask for.

And too bad about BRob and his soreheaded dad, but he made millions as a journeyman and there's no crying in football, boys.

@"Jor-El" said:

I totally understand the idea of taking a flyer in a later round on a player with risks. But if it was even a case of "The Vikings were smart enough to be less wrong", then why hasn't Spielman ever repeated the late-round success of Diggs, despite having 60 picks (double the normal assigned) in rounds 5-7 in ten years? Luck is random, but being smart should repeat, at a rate higher than 1.6%. That's not even a rate you should call good luck. Or, if all draft picks are just a combination of lucky fit of system and human traits etc, why does Spielman get credit for Smith, Rhodes, Barr, Hunter, Kendricks? DING-DING-DING-DING-DING!!! We have a winner!!! This whole "I want 10 draft picks per year" (especially when most of them are wasted 5-7 rounders) is just another way of dodging his lame-ass playoff record...with the Vikings, Dolphins and Bears. "You can't blame ME, I drafted 10 players and signed 15 UDFA, it's not MY fault!!".   There is no ONE formula for building a team. You can't just roll the dice on "down the road" players every year when your NOT WINNING PLAYOFF GAMES. Smart, WINNING teams utilize ALL avenues available wisely (for the most part) : draft, F/A, trade, practice squads. Ultimately, the teams/front offices that make the playoffs consistently and WIN playoff games consistently, and WIN Super Bowls at least occasionally, will be looked upon as more successful than the teams/front offices that occasionally make the playoffs, do NOT win playoff games consistently and NEVER win Super Bowls. That's kinda how professional sports works....WINNING.  What about all the draft equity WASTED between 04/2011 and 09/2016 on 3 QB's, ALL of whom are no longer on the team? What about Ricky DRAFTING not 1, not 2,  but THREE kickers in his tenure here, ALSO none still on the team?  And the coup-de-grace : TWO FRICKING PLAYOFF WINS SINCE 2006.  I'll bet Ricky is laughing his ass off at these posts......."Ha,ha, ha!! NOW I have Zim as my NEXT scapegoat!! And maybe Thielen, too. Fuck what he's accomplished over the past 2+ seasons! If fans want to make him a scapegoat for ONE play, then damnit, I'm gonna capitalize on THAT and cover my ass! Whoo-hoo!!" I wish Vikings fans would stop focusing on the minutiae of single plays in single GAMES, and also PLEASE stop with the "woulda-coulda-shoulda" revisionist history that turns LOSSES into wins in some fictional reality. I can easily play the same revisionist history game and make the Vikings 2-6..... but they're NOT, are they? It's also REALLY easy to turn that playoff victory over the Saints last year and make it another "Schpileman Special" (A playoff winless season, patent pending). It's about time we take a MACRO view, dontcha think? Focus on the core CAUSE, not the symptoms. 13 seasons is a LOOOOONG time in the NFL without having some playoff success. Other than Jerry Jones, what GM or VP of PP has lasted that long with such anemic results? The Giants shit-canned a GM that WON TWO SB's in 7 years because he had 5 seasons of playoff futility!!

@"JimmyinSD" said: I think Spielman is a POS for the way he handled BRob and a few other vets... no arguements.  I think he has made some headscratchers that deserve to be scrutinized.  however I think he has done some good things as well and certainly has made some contributions to this team since he soley took the reins of the team,  however I dont think he makes game day decisions like who plays and who doesnt... he doesnt have that kind of power and Zim would have walked or spouted off by now if rick was putting his 2 cents where it doesnt belong.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: I think Spielman is a POS for the way he handled BRob and a few other vets... no arguements.  I think he has made some headscratchers that deserve to be scrutinized.  however I think he has done some good things as well and certainly has made some contributions to this team since he soley took the reins of the team,  however I dont think he makes game day decisions like who plays and who doesnt... he doesnt have that kind of power and Zim would have walked or spouted off by now if rick was putting his 2 cents where it doesnt belong.

Exactly.  For those that criticize Zim as out of touch and unwilling to change, yet think that he is Rick's lackey...  Baffling is the only thought that comes to mine. 

Treadwell plays because he is a solid #3.  Big bodied and has been fairly consistent since he hit bottom against GB.  The DB made a great play to swat that 4th down catch out of his hands.  Or is it only a great play when our DBs do that?  That wasn't the reason we lost.  Our two stud WRs made two crucial mistakes.  It happens.  Thielen needs to protect better when cutting back inside.  You have to know you are going to get blasted when you cut back inside.  Digg's mistake was bigger IMO.  That wasn't a great play by the defense (like Thielen's or Treadwell's mistake) it was just a boneheaded play.  He owned it and we move on, but it was a bad play that had a bad result.

So any anger at Treadwell should be secondary to anger directed at Adam and Diggs.

Except for the fact that Diggs and Thielen have long histories of producing for this team.  For Treadwell, it was just one more f*ck up in a long line of them and making tough contested catches was supposed to be his forte.  For the 3rd year in a row, he is being out-performed by the 4th string WR.  This year it is a 30 year old WR they signed off the street in mid-September.

how about comparing apples to apples,  Robinson isnt asked to do what Treadwell is doing.  They are not competing for the same routes and snaps.  Robinson isnt nearly as impressive when asked to go across the middle and play in the trees.  he is a little fast guy that can get behind defenses when they arent expecting a deep shot.  his usage is what makes him shine,  Treadwell is asked to run the dirty routes and do the dirty work in the run game,  Robinson would get his ass handed to him if he had to block a LB on a stretch run.