Laquon Treadwell and Aldrick Robinson

Uh, maybe they play different roles?  Can't just chuck it deep dawg on every play?  Having a legit deep threat that can catch is a nice option and keeps the defense honest.  But it isn't an every down play.  Treadwell has played well recently.  He has caught pretty much everything thrown his way, picked up some key 1st downs and contributes in other ways. 

And if you don't think he draws significant attention away from AT and Diggs, you aren't paying attention.  Can't remember the game, but AT caught a TD on the deep right side of the field.  That was open because Cousins looked off the safety who moved toward Treadwell on a deep cross to the left.  Treadwell is an important part of the passing game right now.

deep passing plays require a couple things,  extra time for the QB on a regular basis  (which Cousins doesnt get)  and consistent personel packages or at least something to not make the coverage think that the O is taking the top off.  Robinson has nice speed and can get behind defenders,  but can he contribute in other parts of the offense that Treadwell is currently working?  Is Robinson the guy to make those catches across the middle of the field?  maybe he has the will for it,  but I dont know how his little frame  would hold up,  I am also betting he isnt nearly as adept at becoming a blocker as Treadwell has shown... they really arent even close to the same type of receiver and wouldnt be interchangeable IMO on a full time basis.

@"Jor-El" said: Yes, through the perseverance of Zimmer and Cousins, Treadwell has rejuvenated himself and has had a career month. But he's on track to catch about 40 passes for 40 yards this year...ok, exaggeration, but Treadwell is hardly electrifying and he doesn't draw any significant attention away to open things up for Thielen and Diggs. Meanwhile, we add a backup WR with legitimate speed that has some history with our QB, and 75% of his catches are TDs (I know, tiny sample size, but still)...and we throw to him 8 times in 5 games? Isn't it time to stop talking about "high percentage passes" that are behind the first down marker, or sometimes the LOS, and throw downfield? Would it perhaps be nice to use a deep threat more often to stretch the field?

I was looking up match ups and it sounds like Marshon Lattimore doesn't move inside at all, so once again Diggs will be matched up with the defense's best corner. If Apple plays he'll be outside, too, but I sort of doubt he will. This means that Thielen will be matched up with PJ Williams, a big reason why the Saints are so lousy defending the pass. Thielen should have another huge game. 

What I'm more interested in (and concerned about) is how we match up with their receivers. With Rhodes out, who takes Michael Thomas? He's a big guy but not especially fast. Do you maybe put Hill on him and double him as much as possible with Sherels or Alexander? If so, who's inside on the slot? And do you maybe put Waynes on Trequan Smith? He's a big guy too, but a burner who's been doing some damage lately. Man we're short on corners. I think this is going to be one of those games where we see a lot of the big nickel. Man, this is going to be a chess match played at the speed of fast-break basketball. 

I'm mostly with Jor-El on this one. But let's start here: Laquon and Aldrick are different players and have different roles. Laquon is a bigger body, a bigger target, can take a hit, fight for yards, and blocks really well. But he is slow and does not get much separation.  Good for short and intermediate passes. (Not worth a first round pick, but that ship has long sailed.)
AR is a speedy deep threat.  We should use AR more to stretch the field like N.O. uses Teddy Ginn and Houston uses Fuller.
If this defense is what Zimmer says it is, it should afford us the ability to take some risks on offense.  The threat of the bomb can open up intermediate passes and help the running game.  Let's give teams something else to worry about.  We have the QB now and the receivers.  Opponents should look at this team and have to fear the offense, not jut the defense.  That's when you have a complete team . . . oh yeah, and a kicker.
I'm OK with an occasional pass short of the first down and rely on the receiver to run or fight for the first.  Sometimes you just need to get rid of the ball quickly. Laquon can break some tackles. We know Thielen and Diggs are hard to bring down.
That said, no more backwards passes unless it is for the receiver to throw a forward pass.  An incomplete pass should be an incomplete pass, not a fumble that can be returned for an interception or, at best, lose us 10 yards.  Passes down the LOS are OK when the receiver has blockers or when the defender is playing 10 yards off (and those are done by unspoken communication between WR and QB at the LOS). 

@"JimmyinSD" said: deep passing plays require a couple things,  extra time for the QB on a regular basis  (which Cousins doesnt get)  and consistent personel packages or at least something to not make the coverage think that the O is taking the top off.  Robinson has nice speed and can get behind defenders,  but can he contribute in other parts of the offense that Treadwell is currently working?  Is Robinson the guy to make those catches across the middle of the field?  maybe he has the will for it,  but I dont know how his little frame  would hold up,  I am also betting he isnt nearly as adept at becoming a blocker as Treadwell has shown... they really arent even close to the same type of receiver and wouldnt be interchangeable IMO on a full time basis.

It's sports: every action draws a reaction. The line was not giving Cousins much time to go deep so we start making a lot of short throws so Cousins can get rid of the ball before the pass rush can get to him.  Pass rushers see this, so rather than do a full pass rush that will get them to Cousins only after he has released the ball, they take a step or two and throw their arms up to bat down the pass.  This is possible because the ball is only going to be thrown about 5 to 8 yards past the LOS so the trajectory will be low. They don't bat down deep passes. 
I was thinking that the OL is giving Cousins a bit more time than it did the first 3 games. And there may be some truth to this. But is that because (a) improved OL play; (b) we are running the ball better so the DL has to play the run; (c) the short passes allow Cousins to get rid of the ball quicker before the pass rush can get to him; (d) the linemen have adjusted their pass rush to account for these short passes and are batting down the passes; or (e) all of the above?

@"dadevike" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: deep passing plays require a couple things,  extra time for the QB on a regular basis  (which Cousins doesnt get)  and consistent personel packages or at least something to not make the coverage think that the O is taking the top off.  Robinson has nice speed and can get behind defenders,  but can he contribute in other parts of the offense that Treadwell is currently working?  Is Robinson the guy to make those catches across the middle of the field?  maybe he has the will for it,  but I dont know how his little frame  would hold up,  I am also betting he isnt nearly as adept at becoming a blocker as Treadwell has shown... they really arent even close to the same type of receiver and wouldnt be interchangeable IMO on a full time basis.

It's sports: every action draws a reaction. The line was not giving Cousins much time to go deep so we start making a lot of short throws so Cousins can get rid of the ball before the pass rush can get to him.  Pass rushers see this, so rather than do a full pass rush that will get them to Cousins only after he has released the ball, they take a step or two and throw their arms up to bat down the pass.  This is possible because the ball is only going to be thrown about 5 to 8 yards past the LOS so the trajectory will be low. They don't bat down deep passes. 
I was thinking that the OL is giving Cousins a bit more time than it did the first 3 games. And there may be some truth to this. But is that because (a) improved OL play; (b) we are running the ball better so the DL has to play the run; (c) the short passes allow Cousins to get rid of the ball quicker before the pass rush can get to him; (d) the linemen have adjusted their pass rush to account for these short passes and are batting down the passes; or (e) all of the above?

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Jor-El" said: Yes, through the perseverance of Zimmer and Cousins, Treadwell has rejuvenated himself and has had a career month. But he's on track to catch about 40 passes for 40 yards this year...ok, exaggeration, but Treadwell is hardly electrifying and he doesn't draw any significant attention away to open things up for Thielen and Diggs. Meanwhile, we add a backup WR with legitimate speed that has some history with our QB, and 75% of his catches are TDs (I know, tiny sample size, but still)...and we throw to him 8 times in 5 games? Isn't it time to stop talking about "high percentage passes" that are behind the first down marker, or sometimes the LOS, and throw downfield? Would it perhaps be nice to use a deep threat more often to stretch the field?

You're leaving out a huge part of the reason we play the way we play. In order the throw the ball deep, we have to get more consistent protection for Cousins. 

I was looking up match ups and it sounds like Marshon Lattimore doesn't move inside at all, so once again Diggs will be matched up with the defense's best corner. If Apple plays he'll be outside, too, but I sort of doubt he will. This means that Thielen will be matched up with PJ Williams, a big reason why the Saints are so lousy defending the pass. Thielen should have another huge game. 

What I'm more interested in (and concerned about) is how we match up with their receivers. With Rhodes out, who takes Michael Thomas? He's a big guy but not especially fast. Do you maybe put Hill on him and double him as much as possible with Sherels or Alexander? If so, who's inside on the slot? And do you maybe put Waynes on Trequan Smith? He's a big guy too, but a burner who's been doing some damage lately. Man we're short on corners. I think this is going to be one of those games where we see a lot of the big nickel. Man, this is going to be a chess match played at the speed of fast-break basketball. 

@"FSUVike" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Jor-El" said: Yes, through the perseverance of Zimmer and Cousins, Treadwell has rejuvenated himself and has had a career month. But he's on track to catch about 40 passes for 40 yards this year...ok, exaggeration, but Treadwell is hardly electrifying and he doesn't draw any significant attention away to open things up for Thielen and Diggs. Meanwhile, we add a backup WR with legitimate speed that has some history with our QB, and 75% of his catches are TDs (I know, tiny sample size, but still)...and we throw to him 8 times in 5 games? Isn't it time to stop talking about "high percentage passes" that are behind the first down marker, or sometimes the LOS, and throw downfield? Would it perhaps be nice to use a deep threat more often to stretch the field?

You're leaving out a huge part of the reason we play the way we play. In order the throw the ball deep, we have to get more consistent protection for Cousins. 

I was looking up match ups and it sounds like Marshon Lattimore doesn't move inside at all, so once again Diggs will be matched up with the defense's best corner. If Apple plays he'll be outside, too, but I sort of doubt he will. This means that Thielen will be matched up with PJ Williams, a big reason why the Saints are so lousy defending the pass. Thielen should have another huge game. 

What I'm more interested in (and concerned about) is how we match up with their receivers. With Rhodes out, who takes Michael Thomas? He's a big guy but not especially fast. Do you maybe put Hill on him and double him as much as possible with Sherels or Alexander? If so, who's inside on the slot? And do you maybe put Waynes on Trequan Smith? He's a big guy too, but a burner who's been doing some damage lately. Man we're short on corners. I think this is going to be one of those games where we see a lot of the big nickel. Man, this is going to be a chess match played at the speed of fast-break basketball. 

I am also much more interested in the DB/WR matchup than yet another lame Treadwell thread. Jesus, the team wins a Super Bowl and some folks here will still be bitching about him.

Personally, I'd go Hill + Harris on Thomas. Holton has the size but zero experience, Anthony looks to me like the best Safety the team has in coverage. But can he help stuff the run in Big Nickel?

Going to be some serious X and O moves Sunday night. If Harris in Big Nickel can't stuff Kamara and Imgram Zimmer will have to bring in Kearse. And Payton will go right after him in coverage.

I'm also somewhat terrified of Kamara against Kendricks. But you can't really double an RB when he lines up outside or in the slot or runs wheel routes, can you?

Oh I knew the "our line has to get better to throw deep" line would emerge quickly. I forgot that no NFL team has ever thrown deep without a minimum of 3 All-Pros on their OL.
When we keep throwing short, doesn't that just let the entire defense crowd the line, play tight, and rush harder? If plodding Treadwell is the 3rd WR on passing downs, doesn't that let teams blitz a safety with less worry? Use speed to scare and pull the defense back so they have to beat our line with a 4-man rush.

@"FSUVike" said:

I am also much more interested in the DB/WR matchup than yet another lame Treadwell thread. Jesus, the team wins a Super Bowl and some folks here will still be bitching about him.
.

@"Jor-El" said: Oh I knew the "our line has to get better to throw deep" line would emerge quickly. I forgot that no NFL team has ever thrown deep without a minimum of 3 All-Pros on their OL. When we keep throwing short, doesn't that just let the entire defense crowd the line, play tight, and rush harder? If plodding Treadwell is the 3rd WR on passing downs, doesn't that let teams blitz a safety with less worry? Use speed to scare and pull the defense back so they have to beat our line with a 4-man rush.

@"FSUVike" said: I am also much more interested in the DB/WR matchup than yet another lame Treadwell thread. Jesus, the team wins a Super Bowl and some folks here will still be bitching about him. .

I sure wish you could say that about the Vikings with some historical evidence. Until then...yes, I'll keep expecting improvement.

Quick slant to a big body that can shield the DB, Jor El.  Football 101 on beating a blitz.

We've already seen Kirk throw that pass in that situation to Treadwell. Actually several times. Yes, one was a disaster. But for the most part it's been a successful connection that Cousins doesn't hesitate to go to when the Defense dictates it.

Pretty sure it's 0 for 32 on DCs who get scared and won't blitz just because a burner with a few catches is on the field. Otherwise Ted Guinn and Cord Patterson and Will Fuller would be amongst the most highly compensated and wanted WRs in the League.

@"Jor-El" said: Oh I knew the "our line has to get better to throw deep" line would emerge quickly. I forgot that no NFL team has ever thrown deep without a minimum of 3 All-Pros on their OL. When we keep throwing short, doesn't that just let the entire defense crowd the line, play tight, and rush harder? If plodding Treadwell is the 3rd WR on passing downs, doesn't that let teams blitz a safety with less worry? Use speed to scare and pull the defense back so they have to beat our line with a 4-man rush.

@"FSUVike" said: I am also much more interested in the DB/WR matchup than yet another lame Treadwell thread. Jesus, the team wins a Super Bowl and some folks here will still be bitching about him. .

I sure wish you could say that about the Vikings with some historical evidence. Until then...yes, I'll keep expecting improvement.

everyone knows we keep Tread for his deep threat blocking abilities

@"Maple Surple" said: everyone knows we keep Tread for his deep threat blocking abilities

He'll have a one and done contract with the Vikings. 

@"StickyBun" said:

@"Maple Surple" said: everyone knows we keep Tread for his deep threat blocking abilities

Yep, and apparently makes a mean frittata. Definitely living up to that 1st round pick status. 

He'll have a one and done contract with the Vikings. 

Robinson stepped in & showed that its not that big a deal...get open & catch the damn ball every now & then
Wright, among others, made a nice living doing that
Good point about WR payroll & Tread looks destined for New England

My bigger concern - bigger than Treadwell vs. Robinsons - is that Zimmer will insist on more runs to “keep the ball, take time off the clock, and keep Brees off the field.”  But the Saints’ strength on defense is vs. the run and they are vulnerable vs. the pass. And our best offensive players are Cousins, Thielen, and Diggs. Run, run, pass, punt does not eat clock. It just gives Brees more opportunities. Likewise, running for 0 or 1 yard on first and facing second and long every drive is unlikely to be successful.  And it does not matter how good your defense is; eventually, Brees will figure it out and beat the defense. 

Against the Saints, I would prefer pass and mix in the run, than run and mix in the pass.

@"dadevike" said: My bigger concern - bigger than Treadwell vs. Robinsons - is that Zimmer will insist on more runs to “keep the ball, take time off the clock, and keep Brees off the field.”  But the Saints’ strength on defense is vs. the run and they are vulnerable vs. the pass. And our best offensive players are Cousins, Thielen, and Diggs. Run, run, pass, punt does not eat clock. It just gives Brees more opportunities. Likewise, running for 0 or 1 yard on first and facing second and long every drive is unlikely to be successful.  And it does not matter how good your defense is; eventually, Brees will figure it out and beat the defense. 

Against the Saints, I would prefer pass and mix in the run, than run and mix in the pass.

Have you watched the games this year?  We don't run run pass.  I actually hope that we go against our norm this year and stick with the run.  just pass pass pass will allow Jordan to do his damage.

If the pass is working keep the ponies running down field---weve got a better chance in a shoot out than a grind and hope for a lucky break late in the game.