More Bad GMing here
First there was the smattering of 'BRob gets cut to keep a 7th Round or UDFA who's never done squat in the League' posts.
Now I've read a few 'Trade Rhodes while his value is the highest and let Waynes take his spot' ideas. Um, no.
First, I (and Wetlander) where all over Minnesota picking Trae before anyone else was. We were right about the pick and have staunchly defended him his whole career.
But this dude is not XR 2.0. In my opinion they're not even comperable. Xavier shut down Michael Floyd in college and dueled Hopkins and Watkins to a standstill. Granted, Alshon gave him some problems in a Bowl Game.
My point is that Rhodes was proven and polished coming out of college. His issue early in his NFL career was learning how to temper his physical style of play so he wasn't getting so many penalties. He has never been a 'make up for a mistake with speed' CB.
Waynes is exactly the opposite. He's physical when tackling, but not with WRs off the Line or on routes. His PI issues have been when he gets got off guard and doesn't trust his speed enough to let him recover. As Trae has learned to read schemes, routes and WRs better his cushion has decreased and the penalties have dropped. He's also learning to trust his recovery speed more.
None of that means he will ever have that dominating Alpha Male Shut Down Corner mentality. Nor does he have the requisite physicality with WRs that helps one get to that status.
What is Trae? Probably a Top 10 #2 CB with upside. Trading XR and counting on Waynes to fill his shoes is bad roster management. Hughes is already developing faster than Waynes. Keep him over Trae if there's a trade to be made for a mythical Starting O-Lineman who never gets hurt but is available for some arcane reason.
You get a true Shut Down Corner once every 10 or more years. Trade one away that you drafted while still in his prime and you will regret it.
I'm pretty sure we traded Kalil when he was in his prime, or maybe we just cut him :p
the pats ditched moss and wilfork and so many others before they left their prime and made a killing doing so.
like it or not, Zims no turnover D (personel, not turnovers) gets older every year and at some point we need to get something for the vets rather then let them leave for nothing like seatle has done with their D.
I am going to be blunt, trading Xavier Rhodes or even considering it is idiotic. He is on a team friendly contract and is potentially the best CB in the game (top 5 at worst). The entire game is built around protecting the QB and preventing the QB from making plays. He takes away half the field on a weekly basis. You don't trade one of your best players under contract, ever.
@"IDVikingfan" said: We've spent many years looking for a shut down corner. Now, we're gonna trade him away for picks that may or may not work out? No way...I don't remember having a better CB. Antoine Winfield was a fine CB but not a "shutdown" player. I remember Bobby Bryant and Nate Wright just a little. Carl Lee is the closest. Rhodes has All-Pro ability, perfect frame for today's big WRs. He could - I know, lot of things can happen - be a HOF CB. Trade him? In the words of Tom Arnold, I've got two words for that: In. Sane.
My point here wasn't that no good player should ever be traded away.
It's the notion that Waynes, whom I really, really like, could take his spot without a big drop-off. The kid is flat out not ready now and frankly may never be.
By comparison, Hunter could step in for EG with a much smaller drop off IMO.
But in both scenarios there is still drop off behind them. Alexander and Hughes. Brob and what, Weatherly or Bowers or Ogdenibo?
The depth is good but not ready to absorb losing an All-Pro in either the Secondary or D-Line TODAY. That may change in a year or two.
Frankly, I see no scenario where Minnesota could move a Starter on Defense to bolster the O-Line that wouldn't hurt that side of the ball except for Sendejo, and he's not bringing that type of return.
@"FSUVike" said: My point here wasn't that no good player should ever be traded away.It's the notion that Waynes, whom I really, really like, could take his spot without a big drop-off. The kid is flat out not ready now and frankly may never be.
By comparison, Hunter could step in for EG with a much smaller drop off IMO.
But in both scenarios there is still drop off behind them. Alexander and Hughes. Brob and what, Weatherly or Bowers or Ogdenibo?
The depth is good but not ready to absorb losing an All-Pro in either the Secondary or D-Line TODAY. That may change in a year or two.
Frankly, I see no scenario where Minnesota could move a Starter on Defense to bolster the O-Line that wouldn't hurt that side of the ball except for Sendejo, and he's not bringing that type of return.
you have to trust the draft process, if you can get premium picks in return you have to trust your scouting dept to make sure that you make bank on those picks to replace your high priced vet that you trade away to keep the talent train coming. sure you wont necessarily get an all pro, but you should be able to get some good to great players entering their prime instead of playing out of theirs and get them at a more cap friendly price.
I know it sucks to think about trading away talent, but it sucks more to think that we groom these first round picks and develop them into top tier talent( barr and waynes) and then lose them for what amounts to a fourth round draft pick. I dont want to trade X, but he is at the top tier of the pay scale and is getting towards the end of what is usually a prime career for DBs. Depending how he looks this year I would think we need to at least entertain the offers if there are any.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"FSUVike" said: My point here wasn't that no good player should ever be traded away.It's the notion that Waynes, whom I really, really like, could take his spot without a big drop-off. The kid is flat out not ready now and frankly may never be.
By comparison, Hunter could step in for EG with a much smaller drop off IMO.
But in both scenarios there is still drop off behind them. Alexander and Hughes. Brob and what, Weatherly or Bowers or Ogdenibo?
The depth is good but not ready to absorb losing an All-Pro in either the Secondary or D-Line TODAY. That may change in a year or two.
Frankly, I see no scenario where Minnesota could move a Starter on Defense to bolster the O-Line that wouldn't hurt that side of the ball except for Sendejo, and he's not bringing that type of return.
you have to trust the draft process, if you can get premium picks in return you have to trust your scouting dept to make sure that you make bank on those picks to replace your high priced vet that you trade away to keep the talent train coming. sure you wont necessarily get an all pro, but you should be able to get some good to great players entering their prime instead of playing out of theirs and get them at a more cap friendly price.I know it sucks to think about trading away talent, but it sucks more to think that we groom these first round picks and develop them into top tier talent( barr and waynes) and then lose them for what amounts to a fourth round draft pick. I dont want to trade X, but he is at the top tier of the pay scale and is getting towards the end of what is usually a prime career for DBs. Depending how he looks this year I would think we need to at least entertain the offers if there are any.
That sounds nice, but I really don't think the Vikings, or any NFL team, can really count on "keeping the talent train coming". We've got some great players but, regardless of what Spielman can say, there was a LOT of luck involved in getting them. Best CB with the 23rd pick in a draft? Diggs in the 5th? Hunter in the 3rd? Having 2 talented DEs (themselves 4th-rounders) waiting when a coaching staff arrived to maximize their talents? Thielen UDFA? Cook sliding to round 2?Some may say we got those guys because we have some superior system, but then why do we still pick duds like Treadwell or Kalil or Beavers? If Spielman has some new reliable system for predicting talent, why hasn't the rest of the league stolen it?
Every team hopes they can build a dynasty, but what I have seen in the post-FA NFL is that even when teams get controllable elements (good ownership, GM, and coach) in place, they need to catch lightning in a bottle to find a vein of young talent over 4-5 years, and that creates a (I know people hate this term) WINDOW where they can win. Seattle had it for a few years because they found Richard Sherman and Kam Chancellor and Russell Wilson. Was their system superior? They can tell themselves that, if they want. I think they got very lucky, and they have slipped because they can't reproduce that luck. They might find it again, but there is no consistent, reliable talent train.
IMO, the Vikings are in the middle of a tremendous run of good fortune, but they need to take advantage of it, KEEP their best guys for this window, and try to win a championship or two while it lasts. Put another way: don't even talk to me about building a dynasty until we get just ONE championship.PS: I know - New England. Yes, the exception which proves the rule. But do you notice they haven't ever traded away their best player, Brady? He could have been worth a bag of draft picks 8 years ago, maybe even 5 years. Why not send him packing, trust the talent train to find another? Because Belichick knows landing Brady (and him being willing to play at a sub-prime price) was the greatest stroke of luck in this century, maybe in the history of the NFL, and that they will NEVER be as lucky again.
@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"FSUVike" said: My point here wasn't that no good player should ever be traded away.It's the notion that Waynes, whom I really, really like, could take his spot without a big drop-off. The kid is flat out not ready now and frankly may never be.
By comparison, Hunter could step in for EG with a much smaller drop off IMO.
But in both scenarios there is still drop off behind them. Alexander and Hughes. Brob and what, Weatherly or Bowers or Ogdenibo?
The depth is good but not ready to absorb losing an All-Pro in either the Secondary or D-Line TODAY. That may change in a year or two.
Frankly, I see no scenario where Minnesota could move a Starter on Defense to bolster the O-Line that wouldn't hurt that side of the ball except for Sendejo, and he's not bringing that type of return.
you have to trust the draft process, if you can get premium picks in return you have to trust your scouting dept to make sure that you make bank on those picks to replace your high priced vet that you trade away to keep the talent train coming. sure you wont necessarily get an all pro, but you should be able to get some good to great players entering their prime instead of playing out of theirs and get them at a more cap friendly price.I know it sucks to think about trading away talent, but it sucks more to think that we groom these first round picks and develop them into top tier talent( barr and waynes) and then lose them for what amounts to a fourth round draft pick. I dont want to trade X, but he is at the top tier of the pay scale and is getting towards the end of what is usually a prime career for DBs. Depending how he looks this year I would think we need to at least entertain the offers if there are any.
That sounds nice, but I really don't think the Vikings, or any NFL team, can really count on "keeping the talent train coming". We've got some great players but, regardless of what Spielman can say, there was a LOT of luck involved in getting them. Best CB with the 23rd pick in a draft? Diggs in the 5th? Hunter in the 3rd? Having 2 talented DEs (themselves 4th-rounders) waiting when a coaching staff arrived to maximize their talents? Thielen UDFA? Cook sliding to round 2?Some may say we got those guys because we have some superior system, but then why do we still pick duds like Treadwell or Kalil or Beavers? If Spielman has some new reliable system for predicting talent, why hasn't the rest of the league stolen it?
Every team hopes they can build a dynasty, but what I have seen in the post-FA NFL is that even when teams get controllable elements (good ownership, GM, and coach) in place, they need to catch lightning in a bottle to find a vein of young talent over 4-5 years, and that creates a (I know people hate this term) WINDOW where they can win. Seattle had it for a few years because they found Richard Sherman and Kam Chancellor and Russell Wilson. Was their system superior? They can tell themselves that, if they want. I think they got very lucky, and they have slipped because they can't reproduce that luck. They might find it again, but there is no consistent, reliable talent train.
IMO, the Vikings are in the middle of a tremendous run of good fortune, but they need to take advantage of it, KEEP their best guys for this window, and try to win a championship or two while it lasts. Put another way: don't even talk to me about building a dynasty until we get just ONE championship.PS: I know - New England. Yes, the exception which proves the rule. But do you notice they haven't ever traded away their best player, Brady? He could have been worth a bag of draft picks 8 years ago, maybe even 5 years. Why not send him packing, trust the talent train to find another? Because Belichick knows landing Brady (and him being willing to play at a sub-prime price) was the greatest stroke of luck in this century, maybe in the history of the NFL, and that they will NEVER be as lucky again.
Nobody is suggesting trading away a franchise QB, I've never heard the term franchise CB...big difference in their impact on the game. However New England has typically had no issue trading away other players that are pretty damn dominant at their position.It's funny how pissy fans get about Treadwell or other draft picks that don't perform up to expectation, but seem to not even want to consider options that might allow the team to keep some that are playing like first rounders.
Oh well, it's not happening, so no point in continuing the what ifs.
@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"FSUVike" said: My point here wasn't that no good player should ever be traded away.It's the notion that Waynes, whom I really, really like, could take his spot without a big drop-off. The kid is flat out not ready now and frankly may never be.
By comparison, Hunter could step in for EG with a much smaller drop off IMO.
But in both scenarios there is still drop off behind them. Alexander and Hughes. Brob and what, Weatherly or Bowers or Ogdenibo?
The depth is good but not ready to absorb losing an All-Pro in either the Secondary or D-Line TODAY. That may change in a year or two.
Frankly, I see no scenario where Minnesota could move a Starter on Defense to bolster the O-Line that wouldn't hurt that side of the ball except for Sendejo, and he's not bringing that type of return.
you have to trust the draft process, if you can get premium picks in return you have to trust your scouting dept to make sure that you make bank on those picks to replace your high priced vet that you trade away to keep the talent train coming. sure you wont necessarily get an all pro, but you should be able to get some good to great players entering their prime instead of playing out of theirs and get them at a more cap friendly price.I know it sucks to think about trading away talent, but it sucks more to think that we groom these first round picks and develop them into top tier talent( barr and waynes) and then lose them for what amounts to a fourth round draft pick. I dont want to trade X, but he is at the top tier of the pay scale and is getting towards the end of what is usually a prime career for DBs. Depending how he looks this year I would think we need to at least entertain the offers if there are any.
That sounds nice, but I really don't think the Vikings, or any NFL team, can really count on "keeping the talent train coming". We've got some great players but, regardless of what Spielman can say, there was a LOT of luck involved in getting them. Best CB with the 23rd pick in a draft? Diggs in the 5th? Hunter in the 3rd? Having 2 talented DEs (themselves 4th-rounders) waiting when a coaching staff arrived to maximize their talents? Thielen UDFA? Cook sliding to round 2?Some may say we got those guys because we have some superior system, but then why do we still pick duds like Treadwell or Kalil or Beavers? If Spielman has some new reliable system for predicting talent, why hasn't the rest of the league stolen it?
Every team hopes they can build a dynasty, but what I have seen in the post-FA NFL is that even when teams get controllable elements (good ownership, GM, and coach) in place, they need to catch lightning in a bottle to find a vein of young talent over 4-5 years, and that creates a (I know people hate this term) WINDOW where they can win. Seattle had it for a few years because they found Richard Sherman and Kam Chancellor and Russell Wilson. Was their system superior? They can tell themselves that, if they want. I think they got very lucky, and they have slipped because they can't reproduce that luck. They might find it again, but there is no consistent, reliable talent train.
IMO, the Vikings are in the middle of a tremendous run of good fortune, but they need to take advantage of it, KEEP their best guys for this window, and try to win a championship or two while it lasts. Put another way: don't even talk to me about building a dynasty until we get just ONE championship.PS: I know - New England. Yes, the exception which proves the rule. But do you notice they haven't ever traded away their best player, Brady? He could have been worth a bag of draft picks 8 years ago, maybe even 5 years. Why not send him packing, trust the talent train to find another? Because Belichick knows landing Brady (and him being willing to play at a sub-prime price) was the greatest stroke of luck in this century, maybe in the history of the NFL, and that they will NEVER be as lucky again.
AGREED."Talent" is relative. I recall a few years ago, the Bengals were the "up and coming" team, just to name one. You need to f'ng WIN before you can be considered a WINNING team
I apparently am in the minority, but I continue to base my opinion of the Vikings on their ACTUAL RECORD/PERFORMANCE.
That means PLAYOFF record. I acknowledge that a division title means a home playoff game. More coin in the Wilf's coffers, but after SOOOOO many 1 and dones or 1 and 1's, the expectation HAS to be Super Bowl or bust.
You do not sign yet ANOTHER FA QB for @30 Million per year (84M guaranteed) with the goal of NFCN "Champ".
No spin doctoring.....It IS SB or bust this year. Let's see if they can handle the expectation.
Saint Richard.....It's FINALLY time for you to PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
I dont care about the salary cap, average age of players, number of Pro Bowl players, how many total draft picks you have, or how many you WANT
JUST F@@#ing WIN!!!!
I don’t know, the Patriots might have won it all again last season, had they not traded away Chandler Jones...
@"Kentis" said: I don’t know, the Patriots might have won it all again last season, had they not traded away Chandler Jones...And they might not have even been there at all the last few years if they hadnt made some of the tough moves over the years that they have made....
@"JimmyinSD" said:Like screwing us in the Patterson trade...? ;) B)@"Kentis" said: I don’t know, the Patriots might have won it all again last season, had they not traded away Chandler Jones... And they might not have even been there at all the last few years if they hadnt made some of the tough moves over the years that they have made....
The reason Xavier Rhodes' value is high is because he's our best player IMO.
No way we trade him and if we did, I'd blow a gasket.
@"pattersaur" said:Harrison Smith is our best player. You could argue that Hunter and Griffen is right up there with them as well. But I think we're splitting hairs on picking "the best" of our stacked team.The reason Xavier Rhodes' value is high is because he's our best player IMO. No way we trade him and if we did, I'd blow a gasket.
@"Kentis" said:The bitter irony is that the Pats are raving about how well Patterson is fitting into their offense now...@"JimmyinSD" said:Like screwing us in the Patterson trade...? ;) B)@"Kentis" said: I don’t know, the Patriots might have won it all again last season, had they not traded away Chandler Jones... And they might not have even been there at all the last few years if they hadnt made some of the tough moves over the years that they have made....
@"Jor-El" said:Its preseason. I can't say this enough: its PRESEASON.@"Kentis" said:The bitter irony is that the Pats are raving about how well Patterson is fitting into their offense now...@"JimmyinSD" said:Like screwing us in the Patterson trade...? ;) B)@"Kentis" said: I don’t know, the Patriots might have won it all again last season, had they not traded away Chandler Jones... And they might not have even been there at all the last few years if they hadnt made some of the tough moves over the years that they have made....
@"Jor-El" said:So did the Raiders last year about this time.@"Kentis" said:The bitter irony is that the Pats are raving about how well Patterson is fitting into their offense now...@"JimmyinSD" said:Like screwing us in the Patterson trade...? ;) B)@"Kentis" said: I don’t know, the Patriots might have won it all again last season, had they not traded away Chandler Jones... And they might not have even been there at all the last few years if they hadnt made some of the tough moves over the years that they have made....
But the Pats have released Kenny Britt, Jordan Matthews, and Malcolm Mitchell, and retired Eric Decker, even though Julian Edelman is suspended for the first 4 games. Sure seems like the intent to throw to Patterson is real...
@"Jor-El" said:have they asked him to run a route yet?@"Kentis" said:The bitter irony is that the Pats are raving about how well Patterson is fitting into their offense now...@"JimmyinSD" said:Like screwing us in the Patterson trade...? ;) B)@"Kentis" said: I don’t know, the Patriots might have won it all again last season, had they not traded away Chandler Jones... And they might not have even been there at all the last few years if they hadnt made some of the tough moves over the years that they have made....also
they havent tried to throw to him in a defense that is scheming to take him away.
@"Jor-El" said: But the Pats have released Kenny Britt, Jordan Matthews, and Malcolm Mitchell, and retired Eric Decker, even though Julian Edelman is suspended for the first 4 games. Sure seems like the intent to throw to Patterson is real...Wait until P-Flash fails to run the right route or not cut to a short curl on a blitz.....Brady will blister his ass and Bill will yank him out hard enough his ancestors will feel it. He can't be trusted. His red flag coming out was he was dumb as a stump.
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