Draft in hindsight

I was all too sure we were going to get a plug and play guard. I was disappointed with our draft after the 1st couple days. I was very happy with the value we got by day 3. Overall I guess if it works then what do I know. The thing I hate most about hindsight. It's full of I told you so's. Nobody likes those.

Looks like Minnesota signed Compton to play OT, not as an OG. Ham's designation is now RB, not FB. Some interesting changes: also, Terence Newman is a DB designation from CB which might mean we see him at safety sporadically. 

It must be obvious from game video that Remmers is viewed as a much better OG than OT to the coaching staff. 

@"minny65" said: Reflecting on what has happened post draft it has changed my view of the way the draft fell and how the Vikings drafted.

We immediately moved Remmers to Guard at camp and a quote from Zimmer all but indicates that is where he is staying.  With that move alone and the fact that it happened day one leads me to believe that we were not looking that closely at Guards as most of us thought.  But we were looking for tackle depth.

I and a host of others predicted a CB in round one and that is the direction we went so I am not surprised with that pick at all.  It was the fact that we didn't try and move up for one of those Guards that surprised me some.  I think the only Guard we were only interested in may have been Wynn who the Patriots took at 23 and we did not have the will or ammo to move up that far anyway.  But unless Wynn fell (he supposedly can play Tackle as well) we were going CB.  

So we were targeting CB and Tackle depth.  I know we had an interest Kolten Miller and most draftniks had him available around our second round pick.  But Miller was overdrafted by the Raiders at 15 which was considered one of the reaches of round 1.  Their was no other Tackle taken until us with O'Neill at 62.  So O'Neill was the 3rd Tackle drafted after McGlinchey at 9, Miller at 15.  Tackles are always overdrafted.  O'Niell is a project that might play some at RT as fast as this year but has the skill set to be a LT in the near future.  Could be a big payoff long term.  Long term in the NFL is two years, ha!

Basically the immediate move of Remmers to Guard makes me rethink that this past draft may have fell the way we wanted in hindsight.  We wanted best T/CB in rounds 1 and 2.  I don't think it fell perfectly but it wasn't that far off as planned.  I do think if Wynn was available in the first we would have taken him and then CB in second.  Then if Wynn wasn't available we go best CB and then Tackle.  I also think we thought Miller might be available at 62 so we would get Hughes and Miller.  Instead we got Hughes and O'Neill.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I am not sure if I am rationalizing our draft or reading too much into the immediate move of Remmers that I did not expect at all.  

We had a long discussion about this right after Hughes was taken....

"It will be very interesting to see what they do . I think if it's a guard, then the Vikings screwed up. They passed on several very highly regarded guards so they could draft a 4th corner. I know there's a lot of retro-justification going on, but there's no two ways around that. 

So I tend to agree with TBro when he says the Vikings may fully intend to move Remmers inside. And if that's the case, then there's a very legit reason why they didn't draft OL in the 1st: they don't need a guard, and there were no tackles of any value there. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"minny65" said: Reflecting on what has happened post draft it has changed my view of the way the draft fell and how the Vikings drafted.

We immediately moved Remmers to Guard at camp and a quote from Zimmer all but indicates that is where he is staying.  With that move alone and the fact that it happened day one leads me to believe that we were not looking that closely at Guards as most of us thought.  But we were looking for tackle depth.

I and a host of others predicted a CB in round one and that is the direction we went so I am not surprised with that pick at all.  It was the fact that we didn't try and move up for one of those Guards that surprised me some.  I think the only Guard we were only interested in may have been Wynn who the Patriots took at 23 and we did not have the will or ammo to move up that far anyway.  But unless Wynn fell (he supposedly can play Tackle as well) we were going CB.  

So we were targeting CB and Tackle depth.  I know we had an interest Kolten Miller and most draftniks had him available around our second round pick.  But Miller was overdrafted by the Raiders at 15 which was considered one of the reaches of round 1.  Their was no other Tackle taken until us with O'Neill at 62.  So O'Neill was the 3rd Tackle drafted after McGlinchey at 9, Miller at 15.  Tackles are always overdrafted.  O'Niell is a project that might play some at RT as fast as this year but has the skill set to be a LT in the near future.  Could be a big payoff long term.  Long term in the NFL is two years, ha!

Basically the immediate move of Remmers to Guard makes me rethink that this past draft may have fell the way we wanted in hindsight.  We wanted best T/CB in rounds 1 and 2.  I don't think it fell perfectly but it wasn't that far off as planned.  I do think if Wynn was available in the first we would have taken him and then CB in second.  Then if Wynn wasn't available we go best CB and then Tackle.  I also think we thought Miller might be available at 62 so we would get Hughes and Miller.  Instead we got Hughes and O'Neill.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I am not sure if I am rationalizing our draft or reading too much into the immediate move of Remmers that I did not expect at all.  

We had a long discussion about this right after Hughes was taken....

"It will be very interesting to see what they do . I think if it's a guard, then the Vikings screwed up. They passed on several very highly regarded guards so they could draft a 4th corner. I know there's a lot of retro-justification going on, but there's no two ways around that. 

So I tend to agree with TBro when he says the Vikings may fully intend to move Remmers inside. And if that's the case, then there's a very legit reason why they didn't draft OL in the 1st: they don't need a guard, and there were no tackles of any value there. 

I called CB in the 1st and predicted the run on Interior OL would begin early and often, which it certainly did.
Hughes was a steal in retrospect.  There was very little broad hype or film on the guy, which helped The Vikes get him where they did.
I was thrilled with the O'Neill pick. Partly, because I'm such a homer, but also because of his outstanding Combine and because every year I evaluate Tackles for one important quality. Feet.
O'Neill and Wynn were in a class by themselves as far as viable draft picks at Tackle for nimble feet.
Its what makes defending against speed rushers even possible.
No.  They won't stop a bull rush, but they don't hurt in that regard either due to the enhanced ability to reset and find balance and leverage.
Wynn is better at this point, but O'Neill at 62 was absolutely a steal.
I see him getting lots of snaps in what will be a 'move' Oline.
Isadora, Easton, and Remmers can All hit second level blocks, and are All underrated movers.
Elflein is right there with them.
I've been re-watching film of the Oline and I'm giddy about the continued use of jumbo sets Left and Right now utilizing Morgan, Collins and O'Neill as high-speed battering rams.  At full-gallop, these guys are gonna be a nightmare on the edges.  And Cook is the perfect back to gash defenses on the move.
Collins is another guy who lacks ideal size but has terrific feet and can run just as fast as O'Neill.
This lineup is unique! I'm expecting really good things and some gassed defenses.

The draft was strong and UDFAs were icing on the cake.  Hill had no business lasting past the 4th round.

Also deserving of mention are the Dline acquisitions of Holmes and Aruna.  Both of whom could have gone a couple rounds earlier.

I'm stoked to see what Aruna is gonna look like in a couple years.

@"kahsmick" said: I called CB in the 1st and predicted the run on Interior OL would begin early and often, which it certainly did. Hughes was a steal in retrospect.  There was very little broad hype or film on the guy, which helped The Vikes get him where they did. I was thrilled with the O'Neill pick. Partly, because I'm such a homer, but also because of his outstanding Combine and because every year I evaluate Tackles for one important quality. Feet. O'Neill and Wynn were in a class by themselves as far as viable draft picks at Tackle for nimble feet. Its what makes defending against speed rushers even possible. No.  They won't stop a bull rush, but they don't hurt in that regard either due to the enhanced ability to reset and find balance and leverage. Wynn is better at this point, but O'Neill at 62 was absolutely a steal. I see him getting lots of snaps in what will be a 'move' Oline. Isadora, Easton, and Remmers can All hit second level blocks, and are All underrated movers. Elflein is right there with them. I've been re-watching film of the Oline and I'm giddy about the continued use of jumbo sets Left and Right now utilizing Morgan, Collins and O'Neill as high-speed battering rams.  At full-gallop, these guys are gonna be a nightmare on the edges.  And Cook is the perfect back to gash defenses on the move. Collins is another guy who lacks ideal size but has terrific feet and can run just as fast as O'Neill. This lineup is unique! I'm expecting really good things and some gassed defenses.

The draft was strong and UDFAs were icing on the cake.  Hill had no business lasting past the 4th round.

Also deserving of mention are the Dline acquisitions of Holmes and Aruna.  Both of whom could have gone a couple rounds earlier.

I'm stoked to see what Aruna is gonna look like in a couple years.

we drafted well on a team with a good mix of veterans and young guys waiting in the wings... how many of these talented players (vets or youth) actually make the team and will the front office be able to turn any of this excess talent into improvements in other areas or draft picks.... or will we simply watch it walk away?  stay tuned!

I know I'm late to the party here, but wanted to chime in. This was a really strange draft for me to watch on a couple different fronts.  I didn't see it as a particularly strong draft and the later you were drafting in each round, the more teams were left with a lot of projects or gambles to select from (which was exactly what the Vikings were looking at). I was really hoping to come away with a serviceable offensive line prospect who could compete to start immediately because our offensive line was our biggest need. I felt we had invested enough at the CB position over the last few years that it was time to play/start these kids and let them sink or swim. I liked our top 3 of Rhodes, Waynes, and Alexander which was why the Hughes selection was a bit of a surprise. I get depth and we didn't have a lot of needs, but a 4th CB and kick returner was a let down for sure. Let's not forget that the NFC Championship game completely changed on one play, and that was Chris Long getting around Hill to hit Keenum and force an interception when the Vikings had all the momentum. Hill strugged against New Orleans the week before and that game started to change in the second half when Cameron Jordan was getting around him.  I'm not real comfortable going into the season with Hill and O'Neill competing to start at RT. O'Neill is a project and maybe just the Pittsburgh connection has put a bad taste in my mouth after the TJ Clemmings experiment. Outside of these two Carlson should win the kicking job and Holmes will sit and learn for at least a year as he transitions inside to tackle. 

To me it was a C- type draft

Who were they supposed to pick Supra? McGlinchey was the only real upgrade available at RT and he went Top 10.

Alexander was as bad in the Playoffs as Hill. Newman shouldn't be counted on any longer.  One of the top CB prospects was on the board. A plug 'n play RT was not.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

@"FSUVike" said: Who were they supposed to pick Supra? McGlinchey was the only real upgrade available at RT and he went Top 10.

Alexander was as bad in the Playoffs as Hill. Newman shouldn't be counted on any longer.  One of the top CB prospects was on the board. A plug 'n play RT was not.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Agree. there was no RT available at 30 that would be plug and play and not a project.  McGlinchey went around 9 and then the Raiders reached on Kolten Miller at 15.  Both spots we did not have near the ammo to move up either.  O'Neill was the 3rd Tackle taken in the draft.

IMO opinion Hughes is an immediate replacement for the aging Newman and they are looking for him at Safety now.  He is insurance for Alexander to step-up or be replaced in the slot and he is a year away from possibly being moved outside in case we can't resign Waynes.  

Lastly, he might replace Sherels as punt returner so he can play 2 spots as soon as this year and maybe 3rd spot when/if moved to CB.

@"minny65" said:

@"FSUVike" said: Who were they supposed to pick Supra? McGlinchey was the only real upgrade available at RT and he went Top 10.

Alexander was as bad in the Playoffs as Hill. Newman shouldn't be counted on any longer.  One of the top CB prospects was on the board. A plug 'n play RT was not.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Agree. there was no RT available at 30 that would be plug and play and not a project.  McGlinchey went around 9 and then the Raiders reached on Kolten Miller at 15.  Both spots we did not have near the ammo to move up either.  O'Neill was the 3rd Tackle taken in the draft.

IMO opinion Hughes is an immediate replacement for the aging Newman and they are looking for him at Safety now.  He is insurance for Alexander to step-up or be replaced in the slot and he is a year away from possibly being moved outside in case we can't resign Waynes.  

Lastly, he might replace Sherels as punt returner so he can play 2 spots as soon as this year and maybe 3rd spot when/if moved to CB.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

I am wondering if the Newman to S is more about Zim trying to find a way to keep his buddy on the team one last year,  because I dont know that he will be beating out Alexander, Hughes,  or Hill, and certainly not taking the place of Rhodes or Waynes.  How many DBs will this roster carry?  10 seems like to many.  5 CBs and 4 Ss,  but maybe 6 CBs if one is a back up S?   I also wonder if the Newman to S thing was a shot across Sendejos bow to take a reduced deal to save his job?

Or the coaching staff hasn't seen the type of improvement from Kearse or Harris that they expected and are looking for a legitimate backup S...

@"Wetlander" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

I am wondering if the Newman to S is more about Zim trying to find a way to keep his buddy on the team one last year,  because I dont know that he will be beating out Alexander, Hughes,  or Hill, and certainly not taking the place of Rhodes or Waynes.  How many DBs will this roster carry?  10 seems like to many.  5 CBs and 4 Ss,  but maybe 6 CBs if one is a back up S?   I also wonder if the Newman to S thing was a shot across Sendejos bow to take a reduced deal to save his job?

Or the coaching staff hasn't seen the type of improvement from Kearse or Harris that they expected and are looking for a legitimate backup S...

@"FSUVike" said: Who were they supposed to pick Supra? McGlinchey was the only real upgrade available at RT and he went Top 10.

Alexander was as bad in the Playoffs as Hill. Newman shouldn't be counted on any longer.  One of the top CB prospects was on the board. A plug 'n play RT was not.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

This argument ("all the tackles were gone, O'Neill was the 3rd OT drafted") might bear out, but it's dependent on accepting some pre-draft position assessment by media outlets. Specifically, you have to accept that:

• Austin Corbett, #33 pick, cannot play RT - although the Browns have him penciled in as their starting LT and Joe Thomas is coaching him and thinks he's doing great; and
• Connor Williams, #50 pick, cannot play RT - because despite being an All-American LT in college, someone decided his 34" arms are too short (same length as Riley Reiff's arms, much longer than T. Rex Remmers); Cowboys are projecting him to start at LG but in training camp their OL coach said he could play either OT spot.

I'm not going to die on a hill over the 2018 draft, but it seems a lot more likely that Spielman, who has rarely used high picks on OL, was not very interested in doing so this year...I doubt very much he was concerned that "everyone says they should draft OL", he may even resist that kind of outside influence. But there WERE viable offensive line prospects, who probably would have helped sooner than O'Neill, available when they picked Hughes.
It's probably a better defense of the draft to just say Hughes was the guy they wanted, not to say he was a consolation prize when all the OL were already gone.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"FSUVike" said: Who were they supposed to pick Supra? McGlinchey was the only real upgrade available at RT and he went Top 10.

Alexander was as bad in the Playoffs as Hill. Newman shouldn't be counted on any longer.  One of the top CB prospects was on the board. A plug 'n play RT was not.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

This argument ("all the tackles were gone, O'Neill was the 3rd OT drafted") might bear out, but it's dependent on accepting some pre-draft position assessment by media outlets. Specifically, you have to accept that:

• Austin Corbett, #33 pick, cannot play RT - although the Browns have him penciled in as their starting LT and Joe Thomas is coaching him and thinks he's doing great; and
• Connor Williams, #50 pick, cannot play RT - because despite being an All-American LT in college, someone decided his 34" arms are too short (same length as Riley Reiff's arms, much longer than T. Rex Remmers); Cowboys are projecting him to start at LG but in training camp their OL coach said he could play either OT spot.

I'm not going to die on a hill over the 2018 draft, but it seems a lot more likely that Spielman, who has rarely used high picks on OL, was not very interested in doing so this year...I doubt very much he was concerned that "everyone says they should draft OL", he may even resist that kind of outside influence. But there WERE viable offensive line prospects, who probably would have helped sooner than O'Neill, available when they picked Hughes.
It's probably a better defense of the draft to just say Hughes was the guy they wanted, not to say he was a consolation prize when all the OL were already gone.

Meh. McGlinchey was the only Day 1 Starter at either Tackle spot in this Draft. Y'all can debate what ifs for the others but they all had way too many warts for me.

@"FSUVike" said: Meh. McGlinchey was the only Day 1 Starter at either Tackle spot in this Draft. Y'all can debate what ifs for the others but they all had way too many warts for me.

Connor Williams was the only guy. I thought they might snap up or trade bzck for.  But Hughes was the superior prospect.  I didn't see any DTs worth grabbing either.  Their draft position just wasn't conducive to OL early, especially cuz 1/2 the teams had OLine as a team need.  Oline play was crap leaguewide Last Year. Corbett has attitude and I expect good things from him.  Lets see if he or Williams actually contributes at OT in their rookie season, and how well they play.  My pick is Williams.  I was most impressed with his play.  I saw some draftniks had him as a mid-first round guy.

With the retirement of Berger, we needed either a starting RT or OG.  We got neither in favor of drafting this year's dime CB.  Then in the 5th we drafted a "TE" the same size and .2 slower in the 40 than Mycole Pruitt, and traded up for a kicker.  At least I liked the Holmes and Gossett picks.

@"RS Express" said: With the retirement of Berger, we needed either a starting RT or OG.  We got neither in favor of drafting this year's dime CB.  Then in the 5th we drafted a "TE" the same size and .2 slower in the 40 than Mycole Pruitt, and traded up for a kicker.  At least I liked the Holmes and Gossett picks.

only if you assume you get no improvement from the young guys already on the roster.  Out of Collins, Isidora,  and Hill they have to expect at least one to make the next step.  They are probably just as likely to make that step after a year or two in a pro program than a kid right out of college when we look at how ill prepared many rookies are these days.

@"RS Express" said: With the retirement of Berger, we needed either a starting RT or OG.  We got neither in favor of drafting this year's dime CB.  Then in the 5th we drafted a "TE" the same size and .2 slower in the 40 than Mycole Pruitt, and traded up for a kicker.  At least I liked the Holmes and Gossett picks.

With the pre-draft knowledge that we were switching Remmers from RT to Guard we were looking Tackle and CB over Guard which was the premise of the whole thread I started.  Not saying that you agree with this thought but we ended up passing on all the prototypical Guards and took the 3rd Tackle drafted at 62.  Taking O'Neill at 30 was way too high so we went CB and then Tackle.

Hughes might start out in the slot but he has the potential to be an outside corner and maybe be a replacement for Waynes, with a years experience in the system, if we can not afford to keep Waynes.  So the big payoff for both Hughes and O'neill might be in two years as opposed to this season - good progression planning IMO.  

@"FSUVike" said: Meh. McGlinchey was the only Day 1 Starter at either Tackle spot in this Draft. Y'all can debate what ifs for the others but they all had way too many warts for me.

Fair perspective - though there were people who found some warts on McGlinchey as well. I just think the only accurate defense of Hughes is that a person believes he has the chance to be a great CB, and the OL prospects available might not be any more than above-average. I can accept that (though I don't necessarily agree). I just hear a lot of people saying as much but trying to reinforce it with, "all the offensive linemen were gone, Vikings had no choice". THAT is not entirely valid, IMO. A compounding issue is that many of us feel that the Vikings, after losing too many QBs to injury, needed an above-average RT immediately more than a great CB.

I probably would have picked Connor Williams at #30; I think that would have been less of a reach than when the Raiders took Kolton Miller at #15. Williams could be as good as Ryan Ramczyk was for the Saints last year. At #50 you could still come back and get DB in either Justin Reid or Carlton Davis. But it's hindsight now.