Vikings Defense and the Big Play
So every time you look at defensive stats from last season, the Vikings are #1. #1 in points allowed, #1 in yards allowed, and #1 by a ridiculous margin in 3rd down defense. NFL's best 3rd down defense in 17 years.
So how can a defense that good at preventing yards and scores and 1st downs be so DAMN bad at creating big plays? Vikings finish at the top in nearly every category except big plays. Interceptions: middle of the pack. Sacks: bottom half. Forced fumbles: bottom third. Defensive TDs: near the bottom. Only 4 teams had fewer because the Vikings had only 1 defensive TD last year. For comparison, Eagles had 7, Jags had 8.
So what gives? DTDs are often a result of just pure luck. Playing inaccurate QBs, bad offensive lines, backs who put the ball on the ground, so just through simple regression toward the mean, I expect the Vikings' defense to improve its touchdowns in 2018.
However, I also wonder if it doesn't have something to do with Zimmer's well known, military-like discipline. Stay in your gaps. Stay in your zone. No freelancing, etc. While this strategy clearly works very well in preventing yards and scores it might be the biggest thing preventing more big plays.
This has been a very young defense for the past couple years. But I don't think you can necessarily say that anymore. Barr is in his 5th season. Kendricks his 4th. Hunter his 4th. Waynes his 4th. Whadya say, Mike, maybe it's time to trust these guys a little more?
“A gentleman is someone who can play the accordion, but doesn't." - Tom Waits
Pre Zimmer, getting off the field on third down WAS a big play...
@"BarrNone55" said: Pre Zimmer, getting off the field on third down WAS a big play...This is true. However my question is how many teams win championships playing safe? Seems more win by selling out and going all in. Maybe his way will work. Just seems to me the prize usually goes to the aggressive. He is 1-2 in the playoffs and was a miracle away from 0-2. I know Walsh should have...regardless. Maybe use your formula to get 13 regular season wins then open it up. Or maybe I'm way off base.
@"suncoastvike" said:I think with a less talented roster amd a weaker scheme, you are likely correct. I think with what we have assembled this year and without the chaos the team dealt with last year they should stay the course and save the "dialing it up" for situational use to get out of bad situations or when they need to flip the field or get t he ball back for the O.@"BarrNone55" said: Pre Zimmer, getting off the field on third down WAS a big play... This is true. However my question is how many teams win championships playing safe? Seems more win by selling out and going all in. Maybe his way will work. Just seems to me the prize usually goes to the aggressive. He is 1-2 in the playoffs and was a miracle away from 0-2. I know Walsh should have...regardless. Maybe use your formula to get 13 regular season wins then open it up. Or maybe I'm way off base.
@"TBro" said:@"Wetlander" said:@"TBro" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:Jimmy,@"TBro" said: I think there needs to be a better balance than what we saw last year. When we faced better teams and just sat back and stayed home, we were exposed big time, especially against the Saints and Eagles. Those are also tendencies that can be exploited by better coaching staffs and were in both of those games. Barr had 1 sack last year. Zimmer needs to put him in a position to be more disruptive. He was an amazing pass rusher in college so why not utilize those skills more. Just one example, but there was definitely something off with this team at the end of season where we seemed to sit back and the let the offense dictate want they wanted to do. I would hardly call what they did to the saints for the first game and a half "sitting back", I think the offense setting the saints up in the 2nd half had as much to do with their come back. as far as the eagles, the D was physically and emotionally gassed and they really didnt have anything to prepare for. there needed to be more rotation early in the year to keep guys healthier/fresher down the stretch IMO. Has blitzing Brees ever been the answer to beating him?Nobody said anything about Blitzing Brees. There are several ways to generate pressure on the QB without bringing extra rushers. All I'm saying is that always playing the "stay in your lane" disciplined style that Zimmer preaches also creates tendencies that good Coaches will gameplan against and exploit. You have to change it up and totally agree that Zimmer failed big time on his DLine rotations which he admitted to in the offseason. I think having a coach like DeFillippo who was on the other sideline can certainly bring that outsider perspective to correct some of those issues this season. Time will tell if they learned from those mistakes.
I think you're incredibly off base with this line of thinking... You make it sound like he's a bland, stubborn defensive coach that runs the same formations time and time again.The beauty of his defense is that it's multiple and exotic, meaning he can run a variety of coverages, blitzes, and pressure packages out of a number of different formations to keep the opposing offense guessing.
The guy is a defensive genius, quit making him sound like Leslie freaking Frazier...
I never compared him to Leslie Frazier so I'm not sure why you are getting so defensive and getting off topic. He is one of the best defensive minds in the NFL, but he also is not perfect and makes mistakes. All I said is that I hope he learns from those mistakes regarding the defensive line rotation, being too conservative at times, and utilizing his playmakers on defense to be more disruptive which is what this post was discussing. 22 teams had more takeaways than the Vikings did last season which supports MB's statement regarding the lack of big plays by this defense.
I agree with this. I love Zimmer and I think he's the best coach we've had since Bud, but he's not perfect. I think if you look back at some of the breakdowns we've had in recent years--the last 6 quarters of '17, the post bye defensive performance of '16, opening day '15 in San Fran--those were games where we weren't out-manned as much as we were out-coached.
@"Wetlander" said:@"TBro" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:Jimmy,@"TBro" said: I think there needs to be a better balance than what we saw last year. When we faced better teams and just sat back and stayed home, we were exposed big time, especially against the Saints and Eagles. Those are also tendencies that can be exploited by better coaching staffs and were in both of those games. Barr had 1 sack last year. Zimmer needs to put him in a position to be more disruptive. He was an amazing pass rusher in college so why not utilize those skills more. Just one example, but there was definitely something off with this team at the end of season where we seemed to sit back and the let the offense dictate want they wanted to do. I would hardly call what they did to the saints for the first game and a half "sitting back", I think the offense setting the saints up in the 2nd half had as much to do with their come back. as far as the eagles, the D was physically and emotionally gassed and they really didnt have anything to prepare for. there needed to be more rotation early in the year to keep guys healthier/fresher down the stretch IMO. Has blitzing Brees ever been the answer to beating him?Nobody said anything about Blitzing Brees. There are several ways to generate pressure on the QB without bringing extra rushers. All I'm saying is that always playing the "stay in your lane" disciplined style that Zimmer preaches also creates tendencies that good Coaches will gameplan against and exploit. You have to change it up and totally agree that Zimmer failed big time on his DLine rotations which he admitted to in the offseason. I think having a coach like DeFillippo who was on the other sideline can certainly bring that outsider perspective to correct some of those issues this season. Time will tell if they learned from those mistakes.
I think you're incredibly off base with this line of thinking... You make it sound like he's a bland, stubborn defensive coach that runs the same formations time and time again.The beauty of his defense is that it's multiple and exotic, meaning he can run a variety of coverages, blitzes, and pressure packages out of a number of different formations to keep the opposing offense guessing.
The guy is a defensive genius, quit making him sound like Leslie freaking Frazier...
For me, I think our 2017 defense was pretty bland. I don't think that makes him a bland coach because we've seen him have much more variety (2015). I might be wrong, but what my eyes see is a dramatic downturn in blitzing creativity or effectiveness and an increase in putting more guys into coverage and letting the front four provide all the pressure. A couple years ago, I think this defense was predicated on the pass rush. We had a strong front 4 + creative blitzing that would let us get pressure quickly and our DBs only had to cover for a brief period of time. QBs were confused by our defense and made errors. Now, we've lost Floyd, so we're missing that pass rushing presence inside. We've added Waynes and Alexander and Newmans gotten older and Sendejo has improved a lot. I think we've gotten really good at just covering people and letting Griffen and Hunter be our entire pass rush and it worked pretty well up until Griffen got hurt. I'm not entirely sure, but my got says that Waynes and Alexander are more scheme limited than Newman and Munnerlyn were. I know the numbers suggest differently, but I can't help but think that our scheme changes are due to some sort of limitation in our personnel rather than Zimmer being purely stubborn, and that's why we went out and got Hughes because it will allow us to get back to being more flexible on defense.
@"JimmyinSD" said:I guess hopefully with the addition of Richardson we can be disruptive rushing 4. Then as you say in a pinch you mix it up. I just have a hard time getting over what Brees (2nd half) and Foles was doing to us in the playoffs. We were getting no pressure. What we were doing wasn't working. Against the Eagles nothing was. Couldn't pressure or cover deep. Ok ok... time to move on. That's over now. Letting go and moving on is one thing I personally need to work on@"suncoastvike" said:I think with a less talented roster amd a weaker scheme, you are likely correct. I think with what we have assembled this year and without the chaos the team dealt with last year they should stay the course and save the "dialing it up" for situational use to get out of bad situations or when they need to flip the field or get t he ball back for the O.@"BarrNone55" said: Pre Zimmer, getting off the field on third down WAS a big play... This is true. However my question is how many teams win championships playing safe? Seems more win by selling out and going all in. Maybe his way will work. Just seems to me the prize usually goes to the aggressive. He is 1-2 in the playoffs and was a miracle away from 0-2. I know Walsh should have...regardless. Maybe use your formula to get 13 regular season wins then open it up. Or maybe I'm way off base.
@"Wetlander" said:Yes. He did admit he went to a call one too many times that allowed the Saints to pick up that 4th down. But if I recall the preseason after the Seattle game, everyone was freaking out because we struggled in a preseason game as he was experimenting with coverages and pattern matching in the secondary. There is a reason top notch QBs struggle against our D. Like Brees did in the first half before they took out Sendejo with a cheap shot, Rhodes got a bit emotional and was limping and then our offense gave them a huge lift with the INT.@"TBro" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:Jimmy,@"TBro" said: I think there needs to be a better balance than what we saw last year. When we faced better teams and just sat back and stayed home, we were exposed big time, especially against the Saints and Eagles. Those are also tendencies that can be exploited by better coaching staffs and were in both of those games. Barr had 1 sack last year. Zimmer needs to put him in a position to be more disruptive. He was an amazing pass rusher in college so why not utilize those skills more. Just one example, but there was definitely something off with this team at the end of season where we seemed to sit back and the let the offense dictate want they wanted to do. I would hardly call what they did to the saints for the first game and a half "sitting back", I think the offense setting the saints up in the 2nd half had as much to do with their come back. as far as the eagles, the D was physically and emotionally gassed and they really didnt have anything to prepare for. there needed to be more rotation early in the year to keep guys healthier/fresher down the stretch IMO. Has blitzing Brees ever been the answer to beating him?Nobody said anything about Blitzing Brees. There are several ways to generate pressure on the QB without bringing extra rushers. All I'm saying is that always playing the "stay in your lane" disciplined style that Zimmer preaches also creates tendencies that good Coaches will gameplan against and exploit. You have to change it up and totally agree that Zimmer failed big time on his DLine rotations which he admitted to in the offseason. I think having a coach like DeFillippo who was on the other sideline can certainly bring that outsider perspective to correct some of those issues this season. Time will tell if they learned from those mistakes.
I think you're incredibly off base with this line of thinking... You make it sound like he's a bland, stubborn defensive coach that runs the same formations time and time again.The beauty of his defense is that it's multiple and exotic, meaning he can run a variety of coverages, blitzes, and pressure packages out of a number of different formations to keep the opposing offense guessing.
The guy is a defensive genius, quit making him sound like Leslie freaking Frazier...
I would wager any reasonable saints fan was screaming at their TV wondering what the hell was wrong with Brees and Payton.
@"suncoastvike" said:The eagles game was a different story. On the road, we shut them down for the first drive or 2 and were up 7-0. Then a horrible pick 6 got the crowd in it and gave them life. A fumble came next and pretty soon the Eagles were ahead and started opening up their offense. With the crowd in the game, our O was struggling mightily. Credit the Eagles staff, they had a great game plan (and did it again in the Superbowl) to take advantage of the unknowns of Foles. They changed their offense and did double moves. We had a defensive plan to stop their RPO short game and they used that against us. Yes we got outcoached, but so did Billicheck.@"JimmyinSD" said:I guess hopefully with the addition of Richardson we can be disruptive rushing 4. Then as you say in a pinch you mix it up. I just have a hard time getting over what Brees (2nd half) and Foles was doing to us in the playoffs. We were getting no pressure. What we were doing wasn't working. Against the Eagles nothing was. Couldn't pressure or cover deep. Ok ok... time to move on. That's over now. Letting go and moving on is one thing I personally need to work on@"suncoastvike" said:I think with a less talented roster amd a weaker scheme, you are likely correct. I think with what we have assembled this year and without the chaos the team dealt with last year they should stay the course and save the "dialing it up" for situational use to get out of bad situations or when they need to flip the field or get t he ball back for the O.@"BarrNone55" said: Pre Zimmer, getting off the field on third down WAS a big play... This is true. However my question is how many teams win championships playing safe? Seems more win by selling out and going all in. Maybe his way will work. Just seems to me the prize usually goes to the aggressive. He is 1-2 in the playoffs and was a miracle away from 0-2. I know Walsh should have...regardless. Maybe use your formula to get 13 regular season wins then open it up. Or maybe I'm way off base.
@"greediron" said:They (Eagles) did change in the playoffs. That's what I was getting at with the aggressive teams get the championship statement I made earlier. We had a defense planned and it got destroyed. The deep balls completions were most bothersome. Yes things broke down quickly after a promising start. We were out coached. Moving on...lol.@"suncoastvike" said:The eagles game was a different story. On the road, we shut them down for the first drive or 2 and were up 7-0. Then a horrible pick 6 got the crowd in it and gave them life. A fumble came next and pretty soon the Eagles were ahead and started opening up their offense. With the crowd in the game, our O was struggling mightily. Credit the Eagles staff, they had a great game plan (and did it again in the Superbowl) to take advantage of the unknowns of Foles. They changed their offense and did double moves. We had a defensive plan to stop their RPO short game and they used that against us. Yes we got outcoached, but so did Billicheck.@"JimmyinSD" said:I guess hopefully with the addition of Richardson we can be disruptive rushing 4. Then as you say in a pinch you mix it up. I just have a hard time getting over what Brees (2nd half) and Foles was doing to us in the playoffs. We were getting no pressure. What we were doing wasn't working. Against the Eagles nothing was. Couldn't pressure or cover deep. Ok ok... time to move on. That's over now. Letting go and moving on is one thing I personally need to work on@"suncoastvike" said:I think with a less talented roster amd a weaker scheme, you are likely correct. I think with what we have assembled this year and without the chaos the team dealt with last year they should stay the course and save the "dialing it up" for situational use to get out of bad situations or when they need to flip the field or get t he ball back for the O.@"BarrNone55" said: Pre Zimmer, getting off the field on third down WAS a big play... This is true. However my question is how many teams win championships playing safe? Seems more win by selling out and going all in. Maybe his way will work. Just seems to me the prize usually goes to the aggressive. He is 1-2 in the playoffs and was a miracle away from 0-2. I know Walsh should have...regardless. Maybe use your formula to get 13 regular season wins then open it up. Or maybe I'm way off base.
The Eagles changed things up in the Playoffs because their normal schemes weren't getting anything done offensively once the backup became the full time Starter. The Vikings Defense wasn't in even remotely the same situation.
@"suncoastvike" said:Belichik seemed to have some success with another defense that stresses fundamentals. As much as I dislike both he and the Pats alike, he and Zimmer are both Parcells disciples and that means fundamentals first and foremost.@"BarrNone55" said: Pre Zimmer, getting off the field on third down WAS a big play... This is true. However my question is how many teams win championships playing safe? Seems more win by selling out and going all in. Maybe his way will work. Just seems to me the prize usually goes to the aggressive. He is 1-2 in the playoffs and was a miracle away from 0-2. I know Walsh should have...regardless. Maybe use your formula to get 13 regular season wins then open it up. Or maybe I'm way off base.Changing things up is always on the table, but part of the team's defensive slide late last season was due to wear-and-tear (and Griffen's foot issue) more than anything else.
@"TBro" said:@"Wetlander" said:@"TBro" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:Jimmy,@"TBro" said: I think there needs to be a better balance than what we saw last year. When we faced better teams and just sat back and stayed home, we were exposed big time, especially against the Saints and Eagles. Those are also tendencies that can be exploited by better coaching staffs and were in both of those games. Barr had 1 sack last year. Zimmer needs to put him in a position to be more disruptive. He was an amazing pass rusher in college so why not utilize those skills more. Just one example, but there was definitely something off with this team at the end of season where we seemed to sit back and the let the offense dictate want they wanted to do. I would hardly call what they did to the saints for the first game and a half "sitting back", I think the offense setting the saints up in the 2nd half had as much to do with their come back. as far as the eagles, the D was physically and emotionally gassed and they really didnt have anything to prepare for. there needed to be more rotation early in the year to keep guys healthier/fresher down the stretch IMO. Has blitzing Brees ever been the answer to beating him?Nobody said anything about Blitzing Brees. There are several ways to generate pressure on the QB without bringing extra rushers. All I'm saying is that always playing the "stay in your lane" disciplined style that Zimmer preaches also creates tendencies that good Coaches will gameplan against and exploit. You have to change it up and totally agree that Zimmer failed big time on his DLine rotations which he admitted to in the offseason. I think having a coach like DeFillippo who was on the other sideline can certainly bring that outsider perspective to correct some of those issues this season. Time will tell if they learned from those mistakes.
I think you're incredibly off base with this line of thinking... You make it sound like he's a bland, stubborn defensive coach that runs the same formations time and time again.The beauty of his defense is that it's multiple and exotic, meaning he can run a variety of coverages, blitzes, and pressure packages out of a number of different formations to keep the opposing offense guessing.
The guy is a defensive genius, quit making him sound like Leslie freaking Frazier...
I never compared him to Leslie Frazier so I'm not sure why you are getting so defensive and getting off topic. He is one of the best defensive minds in the NFL, but he also is not perfect and makes mistakes. All I said is that I hope he learns from those mistakes regarding the defensive line rotation, being too conservative at times, and utilizing his playmakers on defense to be more disruptive which is what this post was discussing. 22 teams had more takeaways than the Vikings did last season which supports MB's statement regarding the lack of big plays by this defense.
And largely the same group of players had 27 turnovers the year prior, which was better than 25 other teams.I think the you and others have a valid argument that Zimmer could rotate more guys through to keep them fresh, but maybe just didn't have enough good pass rushers to do that?
He had to make due with two one dimensional 3Ts in Shamar Stephen (run stuffer) and Tom Johnson (undersized pass rushing DT). Robison was a reserve and played quite a few snaps, but he would get a lot of those moving inside on obvious passing downs.
I'm not as high on Weatherly as some and Bower was an UDFA rookie... Are you going to take Hunter or Griff off the field for one of those guys? I wouldn't.
I think we'll be much better off this season from the sole fact that we finally added a "Geno Atkins" type player at 3T. Sheldon Richardson is going to allow Zimmer more flexibility to send Kendricks or Barr on his double A gap looks because teams won't be able to double team Griff and/or Linval. If they do, we have the horses to beat single blocks and should have a free rusher more often than not.
I guess I don't have the same level of concern about a defense that was downright dominant for most of the season.
i just hope griffen is just not wearing down. he has dissapeared down the stretch the last two years. Someone else needs to step up and push him at RDE.
@"kmillard" said: i just hope griffen is just not wearing down. he has dissapeared down the stretch the last two years. Someone else needs to step up and push him at RDE.He's a guy that needs more rest early in the season. When the game is in hand we need to cycle our starters snaps down to less than half. Don't do wholesale unit changes, but work in the reserves with the starters to get them experience and the 1s some rest.
@"JimmyinSD" said:He takes on alot of double duty. Unfortunately we didn't have games in hand often enough to give him rest. A few games early last year we dominated start to finish, Tampa, Chicago however most times the final score did not reflect how early we could breeze throughout the season. Even if it looked one sided at the end. Richardson is going to help Griffen's health.@"kmillard" said: i just hope griffen is just not wearing down. he has dissapeared down the stretch the last two years. Someone else needs to step up and push him at RDE. He's a guy that needs more rest early in the season. When the game is in hand we need to cycle our starters snaps down to less than half. Don't do wholesale unit changes, but work in the reserves with the starters to get them experience and the 1s some rest.
@"suncoastvike" said:There were several games along the way where he didn't need to be in the field. Cleveland comes to mind. I think that stupid sack streak kept him on the field more than it should.@"JimmyinSD" said:He takes on alot of double duty. Unfortunately we didn't have games in hand often enough to give him rest. A few games early last year we dominated start to finish, Tampa, Chicago however most times the final score did not reflect how early we could breeze throughout the season. Even if it looked one sided at the end. Richardson is going to help Griffen's health.@"kmillard" said: i just hope griffen is just not wearing down. he has dissapeared down the stretch the last two years. Someone else needs to step up and push him at RDE. He's a guy that needs more rest early in the season. When the game is in hand we need to cycle our starters snaps down to less than half. Don't do wholesale unit changes, but work in the reserves with the starters to get them experience and the 1s some rest.
@"JimmyinSD" said:Yeah Cleveland was close at the half then we dominated the 2nd half. Could have rested more in the 4th. Late in the year we controlled games more. Bengals, Pack and Bears. There were opportunities throughout the year I guess. Mostly our game was grinding down then putting away. That doesn't give you alot of halfs to rest guys. Maybe the last 10 minutes.@"suncoastvike" said:There were several games along the way where he didn't need to be in the field. Cleveland comes to mind. I think that stupid sack streak kept him on the field more than it should.@"JimmyinSD" said:He takes on alot of double duty. Unfortunately we didn't have games in hand often enough to give him rest. A few games early last year we dominated start to finish, Tampa, Chicago however most times the final score did not reflect how early we could breeze throughout the season. Even if it looked one sided at the end. Richardson is going to help Griffen's health.@"kmillard" said: i just hope griffen is just not wearing down. he has dissapeared down the stretch the last two years. Someone else needs to step up and push him at RDE. He's a guy that needs more rest early in the season. When the game is in hand we need to cycle our starters snaps down to less than half. Don't do wholesale unit changes, but work in the reserves with the starters to get them experience and the 1s some rest.
The only stat that matters on defense is points given up the rest are a means to that end. Like said above, our turnover stats were much better the year before but who cares we were the #1 defense in points given up and 13-3.
The whole team collapsed vs the Eagles but the Defense was fine vs the Saints. They shut Bree's down like no defense had done for all year for 3 Quarters until Keenum's Int set them up at our 30 and then a blocked punt set them up from our 40. Offense and ST's miscues got the Saints back in the game - IMO.
@"minny65" said: The only stat that matters on defense is points given up the rest are a means to that end. Like said above, our turnover stats were much better the year before but who cares we were the #1 defense in points given up and 13-3.The whole team collapsed vs the Eagles but the Defense was fine vs the Saints. They shut Bree's down like no defense had done for all year for 3 Quarters until Keenum's Int set them up at our 30 and then a blocked punt set them up from our 40. Offense and ST's miscues got the Saints back in the game - IMO.
I disagree the defense was fine against the Saint's. Not in the 2nd half. Brees ended up with 294 yards and 3 td. Most in the 2nd half. We did come up with a huge sack that set up the long FG miss. There was also a illegal shift penalty that wiped out a long Saints TD. Then Griff deflected the pass with the back of his hand. Barr INT in the redzone it later resulted. So they ended up empty still. It wasn't all on us giving them short fields. Which as you pointed out we did. That bad Case INT did swing momentum giving the ball back right after they scored. If you only look at our miscues you won't see theirs. They had us dead to rights on a trick play Kamara missed a wide open receiver easy 6 there. Starting really just before the half Drew started finding holes everywhere. Just be it dumb luck or what they kept shooting their own foot. When they stopped that they nearly won. Should have maybe. If it wasn't for one more magical dumb luck play on our part. I guess I remember that game differently.
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