One of the best draft re-caps I've read
https://www.dailynorseman.com/2018/4/29/17297472/thoughts-on-the-vikings-draft
I don't agree with everything he says, especially about Gossett taking over RT!!?? Don't think so. But he offers some good insight to how the draft unfolded.
Thanks for sharing. As you say, it was good insight and a good read. Disagree with the "need to light a fire under Reiff" section, but that is a minor detail.
Gossett did play some Tackle at App state but I think it would be a reach claiming he could challenge for the starting RT spot. He has the power, just not sure he has the lateral quickness to deal with Speed rushers. I think he will be a solid RG prospect.
@"greediron" said: Thanks for sharing. As you say, it was good insight and a good read. Disagree with the "need to light a fire under Reiff" section, but that is a minor detail.
Agree with this...he also said that Reiff had the worst year by far of his career this past season. Well, if that's true, then we can underline with big bold black sharpie how BAD Kalil has been for his whole career, because I sure thought Reiff was a decent upgrade over that slug.
This was the best part of the whole article and kind of sums up my thoughts on the draft...
"Bottom line, this draft does not give a sense of immediate gratification in terms of drafting a number of immediate starters, but the Vikings roster doesn’t have room for many of those anymore.
And that’s a good thing."
The best we could have hoped for was to get a Day 1 starter at RG or RT. Pretty much every other pick was going to strictly be a depth player as a rookie looking at our lineup. I think not having a 4th round pick from the Bradford trade hamstrung our ability to move up in the 2nd to get one of our targets. Honestly, O'Neill isn't a bad consolation prize... he's the most athletic OT in this entire draft and the NFL has plenty of former TEs that are top end starting LTs in the league. If he can get stronger this year and improve his technique, the Vikings may have a steal on their hands. I'm also intrigued by this new kicker... the more I read up on him, he not only has a monstrous leg, but he has a reputation as making big kicks in clutch moments.
Solid draft by the Vikings in my opinion. It's going to be a battle at the bottom end of our roster. There will be some good players cut again this year.
@"prairieghost" said:To be fair, he said PFF rated him as having the worst season of his career. And PFF is garbage when it comes to rating the lines. Reiff was worth every penny at that position and really solidified the line with his attitude, work ethic and play.@"greediron" said: Thanks for sharing. As you say, it was good insight and a good read. Disagree with the "need to light a fire under Reiff" section, but that is a minor detail.
Agree with this...he also said that Reiff had the worst year by far of his career this past season. Well, if that's true, then we can underline with big bold black sharpie how BAD Kalil has been for his whole career, because I sure thought Reiff was a decent upgrade over that slug.
@"greediron" said:@"prairieghost" said:To be fair, he said PFF rated him as having the worst season of his career. And PFF is garbage when it comes to rating the lines. Reiff was worth every penny at that position and really solidified the line with his attitude, work ethic and play.@"greediron" said: Thanks for sharing. As you say, it was good insight and a good read. Disagree with the "need to light a fire under Reiff" section, but that is a minor detail.
Agree with this...he also said that Reiff had the worst year by far of his career this past season. Well, if that's true, then we can underline with big bold black sharpie how BAD Kalil has been for his whole career, because I sure thought Reiff was a decent upgrade over that slug.
I am wondering why you think PFF grading lineman is garbage. Is it the article in Sporting news or the reprint at Yahoo news about the NFL lineman bitching? I really hope not. The linemans stance is that only lineman can grade lineman. They are speaking about grading technique and such. PFF isnt grading technique instead they grade RESULTS. They go through more to come up with an accurate grade than anyone else has. If you have a better plce to get lineman’s grades I would like to know.Athlon Sports does a yearly review. In their review the grade out the top 20 at each position. In their lineman review they list the top 20 Centers, O Tackles and Guards. In 2017 do you know how many Vikings made the list? Zero. Not a single Vikings Offensive lineman is included in the top 20 at their position.
None of this is an absolute answer but It all fits pretty well with the fact that the Vikings offensive line has not been a strength for some time. I am not sure why anyone, especially a Vikings fan would deny it.
@"Poiple" said:@"greediron" said:@"prairieghost" said:To be fair, he said PFF rated him as having the worst season of his career. And PFF is garbage when it comes to rating the lines. Reiff was worth every penny at that position and really solidified the line with his attitude, work ethic and play.@"greediron" said: Thanks for sharing. As you say, it was good insight and a good read. Disagree with the "need to light a fire under Reiff" section, but that is a minor detail.
Agree with this...he also said that Reiff had the worst year by far of his career this past season. Well, if that's true, then we can underline with big bold black sharpie how BAD Kalil has been for his whole career, because I sure thought Reiff was a decent upgrade over that slug.
I am wondering why you think PFF grading lineman is garbage. Is it the article in Sporting news or the reprint at Yahoo news about the NFL lineman bitching? I really hope not. The linemans stance is that only lineman can grade lineman. They are speaking about grading technique and such. PFF isnt grading technique instead they grade RESULTS. They go through more to come up with an accurate grade than anyone else has. If you have a better plce to get lineman’s grades I would like to know.Athlon Sports does a yearly review. In their review the grade out the top 20 at each position. In their lineman review they list the top 20 Centers, O Tackles and Guards. In 2017 do you know how many Vikings made the list? Zero. Not a single Vikings Offensive lineman is included in the top 20 at their position.
None of this is an absolute answer but It all fits pretty well with the fact that the Vikings offensive line has not been a strength for some time. I am not sure why anyone, especially a Vikings fan would deny it.
Lol, no it isn't a reprint of an article. It is about what PFF does. They grade results as you say. But with the offense and defensive lines, they don't know enough to grade accurately. They don't know the protections called, whose guy is whose. The lines work as a unit, not a bunch of individuals. It is like with WRs and QBs when there is a communication error. Who was at fault? Pretty much a guess for the guys at PFF. Now take that for every play.It is pretty obvious when they rank Reiff as having the worst season of his career. Sez who? He struggled at detroit and was let walk. He was a rock for us in the first half of the season. I think as Elf got hurt and missed the Carolina game, then the LG issues started to build, our line struggled as a unit. But wasn't it RR that didn't allow a pressure through the first 6 or so games? Maybe that was according to PFF as well.
PFF is what it is. A tool to gauge how well the players perform. But when grading individuals on a unit like the O-Line, they aren't that accurate.
@"Poiple" said:I am wondering why you think PFF grading lineman is garbage. Is it the article in Sporting news or the reprint at Yahoo news about the NFL lineman bitching? I really hope not. The linemans stance is that only lineman can grade lineman. They are speaking about grading technique and such. PFF isnt grading technique instead they grade RESULTS. They go through more to come up with an accurate grade than anyone else has. If you have a better plce to get lineman’s grades I would like to know.Athlon Sports does a yearly review. In their review the grade out the top 20 at each position. In their lineman review they list the top 20 Centers, O Tackles and Guards. In 2017 do you know how many Vikings made the list? Zero. Not a single Vikings Offensive lineman is included in the top 20 at their position.
None of this is an absolute answer but It all fits pretty well with the fact that the Vikings offensive line has not been a strength for some time. I am not sure why anyone, especially a Vikings fan would deny it.
So what to make of all this ... considering the Vikings went 13-3 last year with that O line? Some possibilities:
1) the experts' grades are wrong;
2) the OL as a whole is better than the individual OL components;
3) you just do not need a good O line to do really well in the NFL.
I think (3) is clearly wrong. I assume you agree or you would not be so anxious about our O line. So is it (1) or (2)? Or maybe there are other possible explanations for our success last year:
4) the Vikings got really lucky last year despite the lack of a decent O line; or
5) Keenum, Murray, and McKinnon are so good they don't need a good O line to perform at a high level.
@"dadevike" said:@"Poiple" said:I am wondering why you think PFF grading lineman is garbage. Is it the article in Sporting news or the reprint at Yahoo news about the NFL lineman bitching? I really hope not. The linemans stance is that only lineman can grade lineman. They are speaking about grading technique and such. PFF isnt grading technique instead they grade RESULTS. They go through more to come up with an accurate grade than anyone else has. If you have a better plce to get lineman’s grades I would like to know.Athlon Sports does a yearly review. In their review the grade out the top 20 at each position. In their lineman review they list the top 20 Centers, O Tackles and Guards. In 2017 do you know how many Vikings made the list? Zero. Not a single Vikings Offensive lineman is included in the top 20 at their position.
None of this is an absolute answer but It all fits pretty well with the fact that the Vikings offensive line has not been a strength for some time. I am not sure why anyone, especially a Vikings fan would deny it.
So what to make of all this ... considering the Vikings went 13-3 last year with that O line? Some possibilities:
1) the experts' grades are wrong;
2) the OL as a whole is better than the individual OL components;
3) you just do not need a good O line to do really well in the NFL.
I think (3) is clearly wrong. I assume you agree or you would not be so anxious about our O line. So is it (1) or (2)? Or maybe there are other possible explanations for our success last year:
4) the Vikings got really lucky last year despite the lack of a decent O line; or
5) Keenum, Murray, and McKinnon are so good they don't need a good O line to perform at a high level.
6) O-line isn't a sexy position, so the effort given in grading them isn't what would be required to attain reliable accuracy.
6 b) the complexity of the unit and different schemes makes accurate grading very difficult
agreed greed. lolol. greedx2
The stats guys dont make it any easier. Checkout NexGenstats. If you like geekage they are a very interesting place. But you have to figure a few things out yourself.
Under news they list the best offensive units. Vikings ranked 6th over all. But the caveats are kind of tough to determine their measure of effectiveness. The Vikes line was 6th for rushing and 14th for passing. How 6th and 14th add up to be 6th isnt very obvious. smh...
For passing it is pressures as determined by a defender being within 2 yards of QB. A bit arbitrary considering the level of computer science going into all of this. The O line gets 100% of the credit for this but what if it is the QB who has elite scrambling skills? Compare Rodgers, Wilson (or Keenum?) to Tom Brady, Peyton Manning or Dan Marino (all effectively statues.). So the Vikes are 14th but what is the actual capability of the line minus the QB’s escape act? We can all guess that Keenum had some effect on it but that amount is undetermined. No matter what we can all agree that the line is somewhat better than the previous seasons and they are headed down the right track. But the actual value of the line is 14/32 minus Keenum’s scrambling which would put it at average at best or more likely less than average by some factor. I would put them at about 20 out of 32 teams for QB pressures. I thought Keenum was excellent in feeling pressure and adjusting thereby extending plays. This number falls in pretty close to where PFF evaluates the Vikings O line.
I dont think being a backup to a lineman for a line that is below average at pass blocking is a good status to put on any of their resumes. The Vikings line is not an elite pass protection unit by any measure. Lots of reasons from poor drafting, scheme, coaching etc... They still kind of suck. Makes me a little nervous for our $84 mill man (who is less mobile than Keenum)
The good news is Cook should have a hell of a year!
@"dadevike" said:@"Poiple" said:I am wondering why you think PFF grading lineman is garbage. Is it the article in Sporting news or the reprint at Yahoo news about the NFL lineman bitching? I really hope not. The linemans stance is that only lineman can grade lineman. They are speaking about grading technique and such. PFF isnt grading technique instead they grade RESULTS. They go through more to come up with an accurate grade than anyone else has. If you have a better plce to get lineman’s grades I would like to know.Athlon Sports does a yearly review. In their review the grade out the top 20 at each position. In their lineman review they list the top 20 Centers, O Tackles and Guards. In 2017 do you know how many Vikings made the list? Zero. Not a single Vikings Offensive lineman is included in the top 20 at their position.
None of this is an absolute answer but It all fits pretty well with the fact that the Vikings offensive line has not been a strength for some time. I am not sure why anyone, especially a Vikings fan would deny it.
So what to make of all this ... considering the Vikings went 13-3 last year with that O line? Some possibilities:
1) the experts' grades are wrong;
2) the OL as a whole is better than the individual OL components;
3) you just do not need a good O line to do really well in the NFL.
I think (3) is clearly wrong. I assume you agree or you would not be so anxious about our O line. So is it (1) or (2)? Or maybe there are other possible explanations for our success last year:
4) the Vikings got really lucky last year despite the lack of a decent O line; or
5) Keenum, Murray, and McKinnon are so good they don't need a good O line to perform at a high level.
As a team the Vikings had a great year. The question is what about this year and the next? How do they improve especially in the playoffs? Thats really what we are talking about here when it comes down to it.Where do they put their money and resources to improve? Which unit is the weakest? You can take the experts grades or you can look at how they did during the palyoffs. What went wrong in those last 6 quarters? They were up 17-0 late in the third quarter.
A lot has been said by Zimmer and others about what went wrong. But most agree that the O line collapsed after the shuffle due to injury and that the d line wasnt effective. (I blame Griffs foot lol) Zimmer stated they all looked gassed and that rotating more during the season is a lesson he learned.
It seems obvious to me that the smart money says fix the lines, get some quality depth for injury relief and rotation. I dont know how much more obvious it needs to be. If the Vikes want to be a dynasty, a team that goes deep in the playoffs for several years, an elite offensive line is a requirement.
@"prairieghost" said:@"greediron" said: Thanks for sharing. As you say, it was good insight and a good read. Disagree with the "need to light a fire under Reiff" section, but that is a minor detail.
Agree with this...he also said that Reiff had the worst year by far of his career this past season. Well, if that's true, then we can underline with big bold black sharpie how BAD Kalil has been for his whole career, because I sure thought Reiff was a decent upgrade over that slug.
I'm not sold on Tony Sparano. I think we could do better.
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