Draft Thought

I really dislike the idea of being a team that needs to pick a CB in the top 2 rounds every year. The rookies seem to be lost for 2 years, so replacing them in the draft may not help anyway. IMO Zimmer needs to let go of Newman; great player but would Waynes and Alexander get up to speed faster if he wasn't taking time from them? I would prefer if Zimmer found some CB projects in free agency that were younger - every year there are guys 30 or under that are bargains and do well (like Patrick Robinson last year).

It's been said before by me and others, but...I wish our talented defensive coaching staff could turn some later picks or free agent pickups into significant contributors.

I think they will do something at corner and will do it early.  Right now, they only have 3 corners you want playing any snaps.

Sherels is not useful as a corner and he is not all of a sudden going to magically get better there either.  Richardson and Tocho are unknowns.

They have added some WR competition for cheap and even brought in a LB but have not done anything at corner.  Yet.

With 17 days left until the draft it is becoming more and more clear, to me, that they will select a corner early.

I would say that adding a player like Oliver, for example, and giving him a year to learn the defense and get more coaching would give them some flexibility in terms of negotiations with Waynes.

Waynes may command top 5 or top 10 corner money when they do his extension.  Will he get as much as Kyle Fuller received which was a 4 year 56 mil deal?  Or will it be closer to what Dre Kirkpatrick received which was a 5 year 52.5 mil deal?

Either way they could be looking at having two corners both making over 10 mil per year.  You got 2 DEs, 1 DT and hopefully 2 if they sign Richardson next year, 2 LBs, 1 CB, and 1 S on defense all potentially making top dollar.

With the offense also needing some attention (Diggs and a bump up for Thielen), they could be hard pressed to have 9 defenders making 10 mil per year or over.

I don't think it would come down to them not liking Waynes or Alexander who they do not really have to worry about until the start of 2020. 

It likely will come down to where they want to spend the money.

I hope it's not a corner. One way to ensure minimal first-year contribution is to draft a corner. Does he beat out Rhodes? No. Does he beat out Waynes? No. Does he beat out Alexander going into this 3rd season? Probably not.

Might be a wise move for the future, but I'm just not a big fan of using a 1st round pick on a 4th corner. I'd much prefer we add a veteran here, via trade or maybe a FA after June 1. 

Either way, I'd be surprised if we didn't trade down. 

The question I have is: Is Zimmer all that good of a D guru if a good chunk of the $$ and high draft picks are all spent on D?  Could someone else get similar production with such a slant toward D players?

@"AGRforever" said: The question I have is: Is Zimmer all that good of a D guru if a good chunk of the $$ and high draft picks are all spent on D?  Could someone else get similar production with such a slant toward D players?

 all the talent in the world is useless without a great scheme and game plan.  I dont know where this player guru shit came from the Zim is supposed to make chicken salad out of chicken shit... IMO his defense is able to do what he wants to do because of the players,  now that doesnt mean that just anybody would be able to get the same or better from a similarly talented roster,  it just means that Zims monster defense needs quality players to make it work.

theres been plenty of proof with other coaches as well,  they have a system and with good players it functions, but when the talent falls away so does their success.  also plenty of coaches that have had a talented pool but cant win shit because their players dont fit what they are doing or they just flat out suck at coaching.

@"AGRforever" said: The question I have is: Is Zimmer all that good of a D guru if a good chunk of the $$ and high draft picks are all spent on D?  Could someone else get similar production with such a slant toward D players?

They go hand in hand. You need a defensive guru to put talented players in the correct positions to make plays. Without talented players you're limited in what you can do schematically and its awfully tough to hide your weakest links. 

On a more detailed level a good defensive coach also helps with the development of players. Being able to take the Danielle Hunter's of the world who have all the traits but don't know how to use them properly and being able to train them makes the biggest impact. The ability to groom mid-round prospects into starting caliber players or more is tremendous value. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"AGRforever" said: The question I have is: Is Zimmer all that good of a D guru if a good chunk of the $$ and high draft picks are all spent on D?  Could someone else get similar production with such a slant toward D players?

They go hand in hand. You need a defensive guru to put talented players in the correct positions to make plays. Without talented players you're limited in what you can do schematically and its awfully tough to hide your weakest links. 

On a more detailed level a good defensive coach also helps with the development of players. Being able to take the Danielle Hunter's of the world who have all the traits but don't know how to use them properly and being able to train them makes the biggest impact. The ability to groom mid-round prospects into starting caliber players or more is tremendous value. 

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"AGRforever" said: The question I have is: Is Zimmer all that good of a D guru if a good chunk of the $$ and high draft picks are all spent on D?  Could someone else get similar production with such a slant toward D players?

They go hand in hand. You need a defensive guru to put talented players in the correct positions to make plays. Without talented players you're limited in what you can do schematically and its awfully tough to hide your weakest links. 

On a more detailed level a good defensive coach also helps with the development of players. Being able to take the Danielle Hunter's of the world who have all the traits but don't know how to use them properly and being able to train them makes the biggest impact. The ability to groom mid-round prospects into starting caliber players or more is tremendous value. 

I'm in the middle ground, not condemning Zimmer & staff. Some good defensive coaches do need a top surrounding cast - or, another way to look at it is that some really bad defensive units have been populated with high draft picks and/or expensive free agents and incompetent coaching held them back.
That said..."the Danielle Hunter's of the world" have not been numerous since Zimmer joined the Vikings. Actually, we have to say "mid-round prospect into starting caliber player" - without any plurals. I suppose someone will argue that Ben Gedeon counts, but someone else might argue that Hunter, picked #88 overall in the 3rd round, was closer to an early round pick. Vikings have drafted 15 defensive players in rounds 4-7 over the past 4 years, and other than Gedeon, we have special teamers like Kentrell Brothers and Jayron Kearse who have had scant few defensive snaps. The defensive line was wearing down late last year but Stephen Weatherly and Jaleel Johnson remained glued to the bench.
Zimmer is a good defensive coach, no argument. But he has not been much of a "diamond carver", at least not yet.

I am really hoping they dont go with defense on the first pick.  

The Vikings O line has been a problem for ten years.  Every QB they have put behind it has been punished and injured.  We only have to look back to the playoffs to see what happens when you dont have an adequate O line. Now with the added significant investment in Cousins the Vikes need to invest in starter and QUALITY depth to get the TEAM to the next level and keep them there for the next few years.

I would be very surprised if Rick and Zimmer havent learned this obvious lesson.

Agree the OL has been a problem child for far too long...But I wont be upset with a DL pick in Rd1, not after the carnage in Philly and how our DL wore-down just in time for the playoffs. 

I think there is good value to be had for OL rd 2-4 too. Good players, not just "value"

If this team gets to the SB in the next year or 2, it will probably trace to a great DL and good OL. Richardson gives me hope for "great" DL. 

@"SmashmouthD" said: If we draft a CB with our first pick, we probably won't sign one of Waynes or Alexander to an extension.  The money saved could allow us to sign Richardson instead.

As hard as it is to find and prepare a CB for Zimmer's scheme, finding a 3T of Richardson's ability is even harder.  So it definitely makes sense.

Also, there should be a decent OG for us at our pick in the second round.

couldnt the same be said about LB, or DE and not resigning Barr, Kendricks, or Hunter?

I dont think our draft pick this year is any indication of who they want to resign or pass on when it comes to our own free agents coming up.  

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"SmashmouthD" said: If we draft a CB with our first pick, we probably won't sign one of Waynes or Alexander to an extension.  The money saved could allow us to sign Richardson instead.

As hard as it is to find and prepare a CB for Zimmer's scheme, finding a 3T of Richardson's ability is even harder.  So it definitely makes sense.

Also, there should be a decent OG for us at our pick in the second round.

couldnt the same be said about LB, or DE and not resigning Barr, Kendricks, or Hunter?

I dont think our draft pick this year is any indication of who they want to resign or pass on when it comes to our own free agents coming up.  

@"SmashmouthD" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"SmashmouthD" said: If we draft a CB with our first pick, we probably won't sign one of Waynes or Alexander to an extension.  The money saved could allow us to sign Richardson instead.

As hard as it is to find and prepare a CB for Zimmer's scheme, finding a 3T of Richardson's ability is even harder.  So it definitely makes sense.

Also, there should be a decent OG for us at our pick in the second round.

couldnt the same be said about LB, or DE and not resigning Barr, Kendricks, or Hunter?

I dont think our draft pick this year is any indication of who they want to resign or pass on when it comes to our own free agents coming up.  

It could.  It's just riskier, that's all.  If you draft one CB, you then can choose among one of two FAs to keep (Waynes & Alexander).  If you decide to draft a replacement for Barr or for Kendricks, then you better be right because that guy is starting in 2019.

Also, I think Barr and Kendricks are more important to the team and harder to replace than either Waynes or Alexander.  And the savings might be greater, too.

Hell, as desperate as teams get for CBs, we may not be able to re-sign Waynes, given our cap situation.  Better to draft a player a year early.

Another thought would be to let Diggs walk.  He's going to get over-paid by someone.  Might be better to draft a mid-round somebody this year, or wait until next year and hope for a better WR class.  We'll be drafting late, but we'll have some draft capital to move up if we want to.

Doing so would allow you to get 1-2 OL pieces in the first 3 rounds this year.  And I'd still take a CB early.

(BTW -- my thinking in all of this is that someone isn't getting re-signed.  I want to keep Richardson and draft a player this year that can start next year.)

@"SmashmouthD" said: Another thought would be to let Diggs walk.  He's going to get over-paid by someone.  Might be better to draft a mid-round somebody this year, or wait until next year and hope for a better WR class.  We'll be drafting late, but we'll have some draft capital to move up if we want to.

Doing so would allow you to get 1-2 OL pieces in the first 3 rounds this year.  And I'd still take a CB early.

(BTW -- my thinking in all of this is that someone isn't getting re-signed.  I want to keep Richardson and draft a player this year that can start next year.)

wouldnt the team be better off to look for Richardsons replacement in the draft since he is likely to show the least loyalty,  and command top dollar?

@"AGRforever" said: The question I have is: Is Zimmer all that good of a D guru if a good chunk of the $$ and high draft picks are all spent on D?  Could someone else get similar production with such a slant toward D players?

How many coaches have turned a teams defense around from 32nd in the NFL to 1st as quick as Zimmer has ? That should answer your question.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"SmashmouthD" said: Another thought would be to let Diggs walk.  He's going to get over-paid by someone.  Might be better to draft a mid-round somebody this year, or wait until next year and hope for a better WR class.  We'll be drafting late, but we'll have some draft capital to move up if we want to.

Doing so would allow you to get 1-2 OL pieces in the first 3 rounds this year.  And I'd still take a CB early.

(BTW -- my thinking in all of this is that someone isn't getting re-signed.  I want to keep Richardson and draft a player this year that can start next year.)

wouldnt the team be better off to look for Richardsons replacement in the draft since he is likely to show the least loyalty,  and command top dollar?

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"SmashmouthD" said: Another thought would be to let Diggs walk.  He's going to get over-paid by someone.  Might be better to draft a mid-round somebody this year, or wait until next year and hope for a better WR class.  We'll be drafting late, but we'll have some draft capital to move up if we want to.

Doing so would allow you to get 1-2 OL pieces in the first 3 rounds this year.  And I'd still take a CB early.

(BTW -- my thinking in all of this is that someone isn't getting re-signed.  I want to keep Richardson and draft a player this year that can start next year.)

wouldnt the team be better off to look for Richardsons replacement in the draft since he is likely to show the least loyalty,  and command top dollar?

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"SmashmouthD" said: Another thought would be to let Diggs walk.  He's going to get over-paid by someone.  Might be better to draft a mid-round somebody this year, or wait until next year and hope for a better WR class.  We'll be drafting late, but we'll have some draft capital to move up if we want to.

Doing so would allow you to get 1-2 OL pieces in the first 3 rounds this year.  And I'd still take a CB early.

(BTW -- my thinking in all of this is that someone isn't getting re-signed.  I want to keep Richardson and draft a player this year that can start next year.)

wouldnt the team be better off to look for Richardsons replacement in the draft since he is likely to show the least loyalty,  and command top dollar?

I'd be surprised if Richardson doesn't explode in this defense. And at 27 years old, and probably more raw talent than anyone else on that line, he might be the guy you choose to go long with. 

Of course a lot will depend on how he fits into the culture, and also what Jaleel Johnson looks like in his 2nd season. 

@"Jor-El" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"SmashmouthD" said: Another thought would be to let Diggs walk.  He's going to get over-paid by someone.  Might be better to draft a mid-round somebody this year, or wait until next year and hope for a better WR class.  We'll be drafting late, but we'll have some draft capital to move up if we want to.

Doing so would allow you to get 1-2 OL pieces in the first 3 rounds this year.  And I'd still take a CB early.

(BTW -- my thinking in all of this is that someone isn't getting re-signed.  I want to keep Richardson and draft a player this year that can start next year.)

wouldnt the team be better off to look for Richardsons replacement in the draft since he is likely to show the least loyalty,  and command top dollar?

I agree about Richardson being less likely to stay with the Vikings. He thought he deserved $15M this year, so he is aiming to establish a higher value for 2019. But he might decide he likes playing on this line.
Re "let Diggs walk": scary for those of us who lived through the years from Moss to Diggs when we couldn't find any decent WRs. Could the Vikings draft DJ Moore as a replacement for Diggs?