Rich Gannon Weighs-in on Pack/Vike Rivalry & Cousins...
The Vikings and Green Bay Packers have won the past seven NFC North titles, the Vikings with two and the Packers with five. But when former NFL MVP and Vikings quarterback Rich Gannon looks at the prospects for the two teams in 2018, he sees possibilities and question marks.
The Vikings are coming off their most successful season since 2009, but their 38-7 loss to the Eagles in the NFC Championship Game and their uncertainty at quarterback going into next season means they’re still a team in transition.
Meanwhile the Packers — after missing the playoffs for the first time in eight seasons and losing Aaron Rodgers for eight weeks in the middle of the season because of a broken collarbone — have completely torn apart their front office and coaching staff.
Gannon, who does color commentary for Packers preseason games and recently turned down a quarterbacks coach position with Jon Gruden and the Oakland Raiders, said the Packers have become too reliant on Rodgers.
“They made changes to the coaching staff, they have to get Aaron Rodgers’ contract straightened out,” Gannon said. “They replaced defensive coordinator Dom Capers. They replaced the quarterbacks coach . They’re disappointed that they didn’t finish better this season. They have a good quarterback, but the defense has really been a thorn in their side the last couple seasons.”
Zimmer’s influence
Gannon believes the drastic transformation of the Vikings defense under Mike Zimmer has made an impression on the Packers.
While Zimmer is 4-4 against Green Bay coach Mike McCarthy since taking over as coach in 2014, he has won four of the past five contests against the Packers.
“ relied so much on the right arm of Aaron Rodgers, the defense simply hasn’t been the same as it was when they won the Super Bowl several years back,” Gannon said. “They have to play better on that side of the ball. Mike McCarthy has been very loyal to Dom Capers … but it was time to make a change.
“I think that they have to get faster on that side of the ball. I think they look at what the Vikings did and what Mike Zimmer has done with that defense, Mike Zimmer’s defense is significantly better than what the Packers have and they realized, with a great quarterback like Rodgers, they have to improve on the defensive side of the ball.”
When asked to forecast the 2018 battle in the NFC North, Gannon thought the Vikings’ schedule — which will include road games against Green Bay, Seattle, New England, Philadelphia and the L.A. Rams — would be a hurdle.
“I think they have a good coaching staff and a good core of quality players with good toughness and leadership,” he said. “That is important. I think if you look at Mike Zimmer and how he puts together a football team, it is about toughness and discipline and doing the right things. I think it’s a well-coached team. You lose Pat Shurmur, and that is a big loss for the offense.
“But I think they’ll put together a good football team. Look, you know this division is going to come down to the Vikings and Packers, it always seems like it does. But don’t count out the Lions. They have a new coaching staff and a pretty good quarterback in Matthew Stafford.”
Similar QB profiles
It seems like the Vikings’ quarterback decision will come down to either Case Keenum or Kirk Cousins, and I believe Keenum will be the choice. Gannon, who spent 17 pro seasons between four franchises, compared the two.
“I would tell you that for what it’s worth, I think they are similar players,” he said. “Cousins has more starts under his belt, although I think they’re similar-type players when you look at them physically and their characteristics. I don’t know that there is a significant difference when you look at what they’re going to be like in two or three years.
“Here’s the argument to keep Keenum: You know him, you’ve seen him, you’ve worked with him, you know how he prepares, how he studies, how he gets along with his teammates. You have intimate knowledge of the player and the person.
“In Cousins’ situation, you don’t. You have a pretty good sense of coaches who have worked with him and players who have played with him, but it’s not necessarily six in one hand, a half-dozen in the other.”
Still, Gannon acknowledged the biggest part of the Cousins question, and the part Zimmer touched on last week, and that’s the $30 million per season he will most likely demand.
“I know it’s the cost of doing business, but it’s crazy,” Gannon said. “I mean, you look at his record as a starting quarterback and he’s hovering around .500. That concerns me a little bit. He’s not Aaron Rodgers, doesn’t have that arm talent, but he is tough. He’s gritty. He does a lot of the things that you like at that position. He’s a smart guy, good leadership skills.
“But you look at the lack of postseason experience, the win/loss record, and you say, ‘Is it worth paying him?’ He’s probably going to get the most money of any starting quarterback in the league and that includes Brady and Rodgers.”
http://www.startribune.com/rich-gannon-compares-vikings-packers-keenum-vs-cousins/476184463/
Hurry-up Vikings, we ain't getting any younger!
Totally unfair when people use a QB's win/loss record to criticize his talent as a QB. There are 22 factors involved in winning and losing. About 40 if you include coaching staff. I know some bring up Cousins' record against winning teams, but I think that's a little misleading. For example, before this year, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees both had losing records against winning teams.
I would agree with you about Win/Loss record. But I think Gannon summarized my thoughts pretty well.
Their win records are a small part of who they are, not to be rejected out of hand but there are a lot of factors that go into it.
I think all three of the Vikes QBs are of a similar caliber and Cousins fits in there also. Cousins may be the best of the lot, all around. But he isnt a 10+ millions of dollars difference.
I think Keenum is close to him but I think Teddy has the biggest possible upside. He just started to flash what he was capable of. And of course Sam has the big league arm and sharp mind.
I dont know what the right move is but I have some confidence in the Rick and Zim team to figure it out.
Myself, I would hqve tried to sign all three Vikes QBs during the season and then dealt them for draft picks but I guess I am a traditionalist. It seemed the only reason not to do so is they had their eye on someone else all along?
Gannon is pretty black and white. He doesn't mess around the gray areas. He's also a 'prove it to me' guy. I'm sure he thinks that only the top 4 guys in the league should make that kind of money. It doesn't really work like that anymore. A guy like Cousins really hasn't come around free agency like this...its a little bit new territory type stuff. But its certainly debatable and I can see that logic to a certain extent.
Sidenote on a question that is bugging me: why in the hell would the Jets get involved in the Cousins sweepstakes? They aren't close to being good. They won 5 games and their defense is HORRIBLE.
@"StickyBun" said: Sidenote on a question that is bugging me: why in the hell would the Jets get involved in the Cousins sweepstakes? They aren't close to being good. They won 5 games and their defense is HORRIBLE.Pants in the seats?
Ultimately, Gannon gets to the money Cousins is expected to receive. In his case, there could be some personal envy of current players, but I'm surprised how most criticisms of acquiring Cousins inevitably bring up his salary.
Who cares?? If we can afford him and our own upcoming players, we've improved the team. So we won't have a $20M cap buffer to sign other FAs - how often do the Vikings sign more than 1 significant UFA in an offseason?? Most years we are on the sidelines hearing Spielman talk about "value after the initial spree", and guys like Kevin Zeitler and George Iloka sign elsewhere even if we have plenty of cap space. It's fun to fantasize out 3-4 FA signings that will fill all the Vikings' gaps, but it doesn't happen anyway...we just sign Datone Jones or Andre Smith. How often does a top free agent WANT to sign here? If Cousins actually does, be thrilled!!
I think it is the several players with contracts coming up that people are thinking about.
Diggs, Barr, Kendricks, Waynes and Hunter.
But he's not a top free agent==he's a lateral move for max dollar===not a smart move
Please tell me what he has done to garner the top echelon pedigree
To be honest I've seen several of Cousins games and not once have I seen a wow factor
@"Poiple" said: I think it is the several players with contracts coming up that people are thinking about. Diggs, Barr, Kendricks, Waynes and Hunter.Everything I've read says that signing Cousins wont hinder their ability to sign their own players. And signing the guys you listed is pretty darn important too.
We all wanted clarity on the QB's last fall. I'm not sure if the front office got it and they're walking from all 3 who were here or it's clear as mud for them right now and what they'll do will shock us all.
We're about to find out - thank goodness. Lets get the tampering period officially under way already!
Cousins will be the highest paid QB for about two weeks. Then it will be Matt Ryan, then he will be the third highest a week later after Rodgers. Then by next season he will be about the 8th highest paid QB and two years from now he will middle of the pack. Gotta pay to play!
@"MaroonBells" said: Totally unfair when people use a QB's win/loss record to criticize his talent as a QB. There are 22 factors involved in winning and losing. About 40 if you include coaching staff. I know some bring up Cousins' record against winning teams, but I think that's a little misleading. For example, before this year, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees both had losing records against winning teams.
You are partly correct but is still has to be considered with your caveats. Do you give Aaron Rogers and Brady credit for all their wins-of course they get a good share of it, Cousins isn't as capable of elevating the talent he has had, it's not like he is on a shit team just not an loaded one. The QB and coach are probably the two most important of all the factors. Top flight QB's make WR's better and open up offenses-at least that has been used many times against the average QB's we have had and for QB's like Favre. The fact that Kirk has played with a pretty good OL during his career and has had some WR's that were probably average or better (Jackson and Garcon and Reed when healthy), He had a fairly well regarded couple offensive minded coaches in Gruden and Shanahan but he hasn't gotten them to the playoffs and his reputation for crucial mistakes has to play a role in that.
Those are all PIECES of the puzzle that needs to be considered when figuring his value, yes he's a pretty good QB on paper but how good and will he elevate the team to the next level? His inability to achieve anything yet has to at least give people a reason to look closer as a legitimate concern.
“I would tell you that for what it’s worth, I think they are similar players,” he said. “Cousins has more starts under his belt, although I think they’re similar-type players when you look at them physically and their characteristics. I don’t know that there is a significant difference when you look at what they’re going to be like in two or three years."
That is an interesting observation to me. And if you don't consider the win/loss record, Cousins becomes merely a stats guy. He puts up numbers but doesn't get the wins. And then it is argued he is doing more because he has less around him. Also say they sign him, how long does it take for him to connect with teammates and for them to connect with him? I am not really enamored with the guy but whatever. I don't have anything against him either. He isn't top tier or worth it but he will benefit from the market and lack of other quality qbs.
As far as Case goes, people say it was the weapons around him that made him succeed or it was the OL. Like Case wasn't the one rolling out, buying time or making the throws. I think he made the most of the opportunity. I think there is still room to grow. And I know he has his flaws as well but I think he gets less credit for the team success than he should.
@"Vikergirl" said: Also say they sign him, how long does it take for him to connect with teammates and for them to connect with him? I am not really enamored with the guy but whatever. I don't have anything against him either. He isn't top tier or worth it but he will benefit from the market and lack of other quality qbs.
There's another angle that people keep raising - Cousins might not fit in, or its corollary, that Keenum is a beloved teammate, or he provides continuity. But remember: Keenum is a 1-year Viking who was not on the roster a year ago!! He signed almost a month into free agency, and we didn't really hear much about him until training camp when a lot of people argued he should be cut in favor of Taylor Heinicke. Six months later, he's "one of the guys". Sure seems like a good player, even newly arrived from another team, can fit in with the Vikings without upsetting the locker room.
These players are all in the same league, they came from different colleges and different states, they move between teams regularly, a lot of them know each other off the field. It's not a high school team of guys who played together since high school who are suddenly asked to accept the kid who transferred from the crosstown rival school.
@"Vikergirl" said: As far as Case goes, people say it was the weapons around him that made him succeed or it was the OL. Like Case wasn't the one rolling out, buying time or making the throws. I think he made the most of the opportunity. I think there is still room to grow. And I know he has his flaws as well but I think he gets less credit for the team success than he should.Agree and I think it is because Zimmer gave Case less credit or at least less acknowledgment all during his run . The coaches have the inside scoop on all these guys, of course, and if Zimmer downplays Case's play with comments like lightening in a bottle or horseshoe etc...you can see why the fans feel the same way.
There is one BIG difference between Keenum and Cousins. Arm strength. Cousins can throw the long ball and Case simply cannot. On almost every long pass thrown by Keenum last season one of four things happened and none of them are the right thing. The one constant was that the pass was almost always underthrown, it was either: knocked down by the defender, defender interfered and no penalty, defender interfered and a PI was called or Diggs or Theilan made great adjustments and bailed out the poor throw. What we rarely if ever saw was the receiver being hit in stride. Its not only the long pass, Keenum got away with a lot of lob touch passes where he was once again bailed out by the receivers. I like everything else about Keenum, his smarts, toughness and his leadership but his lack of arm strength is a liability. Im not sold on Bradford because of his health but when you compare a better passer like Bradford to Keenum running this same team the offense seems so much smoother and more dangerous.
@"Jor-El" said:@"Vikergirl" said: Also say they sign him, how long does it take for him to connect with teammates and for them to connect with him? I am not really enamored with the guy but whatever. I don't have anything against him either. He isn't top tier or worth it but he will benefit from the market and lack of other quality qbs.
There's another angle that people keep raising - Cousins might not fit in, or its corollary, that Keenum is a beloved teammate, or he provides continuity. But remember: Keenum is a 1-year Viking who was not on the roster a year ago!! He signed almost a month into free agency, and we didn't really hear much about him until training camp when a lot of people argued he should be cut in favor of Taylor Heinicke. Six months later, he's "one of the guys". Sure seems like a good player, even newly arrived from another team, can fit in with the Vikings without upsetting the locker room.
These players are all in the same league, they came from different colleges and different states, they move between teams regularly, a lot of them know each other off the field. It's not a high school team of guys who played together since high school who are suddenly asked to accept the kid who transferred from the crosstown rival school.
Agree and nothing helps connecting more then winning. If Cousins and the team win (like with Case) then there will be a bromance fast :)
@"Jamie Demaree" said: There is one BIG difference between Keenum and Cousins. Arm strength. Cousins can throw the long ball and Case simply cannot. On almost every long pass thrown by Keenum last season one of four things happened and none of them are the right thing. The one constant was that the pass was almost always underthrown, it was either: knocked down by the defender, defender interfered and no penalty, defender interfered and a PI was called or Diggs or Theilan made great adjustments and bailed out the poor throw. What we rarely if ever saw was the receiver being hit in stride. Its not only the long pass, Keenum got away with a lot of lob touch passes where he was once again bailed out by the receivers. I like everything else about Keenum, his smarts, toughness and his leadership but his lack of arm strength is a liability. Im not sold on Bradford because of his health but when you compare a better passer like Bradford to Keenum running this same team the offense seems so much smoother and more dangerous.I do think Cousins has the better arm but I don't want to downplay Case's ability to lob (negative) or add touch (positive) some of those really nice tight window throws.
Two stats that I think are often overlooked in most QB discussions:
1 - Yards per attempt (YPA)
Remember when Sam led our dink and dunk offense and set the completion % record. No knock on Sam at all with that OL etc.
Just pointing out that if you can be towards the Top in the NFL in completion % and also YPA then you are attempting and completing a lot of downfield throws. Cousins has been Top 10 in both categories (in unison of course) for all 3 years starting.
I compare him to a guy that I thought was a dink and dunk passer coming out of college that has a cannon for an arm. Derek Carr. He ran a dink and dunk offense in college and that has translated to the NFL even though everyone highlights all QB's long TD passes he is not a very good/accurate downfield thrower and he doesn't attempt as many as most QB to begin with.
Carr's 3 years ( I will disregard Carr's horrible rookie year and only compare the last 3 for each player:
2015 - 61% completion percentage (23rd in NFL) with a 6.96 YPA (26th rank)
2016 - 63.8% completion (15th in NFL) along with the 18th ranked YPA of 7.03
2017 - 62.7% completion (14th in NFL) along with the 19th ranked YPA of only 6.79.
You need to be over 65% and over 7.5 YPA to be near TOP 10 in the NFL. Cousins averages 65.5 Completion % and 7.73 YPA.
2 - other then YPA being overlooked the other stat is starts. You have to be on the field to contribute to a game.
Cousins has started every game including their only playoff game - 17 games, 16 games, and 16 games.
Some really good QB's are injury prone and some are not. Bradford has great ability but you can not pay big bucks and rely on his knee.
Teams will pay guys like Cousins premium because he has great production and has not been injured.
I dont mean Keenums lack of arm strength as a total knock on him because he has found a way to compensate for it and be a NFL QB. I worry about what he cannot compensate for and that is opposing teams defenses. Defensive coordinators know all about Keenum now and realize there is not much of a downfield threat from him so they can concentrate on stopping the short to mid range passing game. Bradfords record setting completion % year should almost be thrown out because of the horrible OL he had in front of him, he had no choice but to throw little dink passes because he was about to get killed. Compare Bradford in 2017 (albeit a very small sample) with a decent line, he was throwing the ball all over the place and had the defense on its toes the whole time. Then throw in the threat of Cook on top of the threat of the long pass, it completes this offense. I look at it like this, Zimmer says and it has proven out that if the offense puts up 20 points they win because of the defense. Case did a great job of doing just enough to get 20 points and the wins. With Cousins running the show I think the 20 point plateau is so much easier to get too because of the added threat he brings that will translate to not depending on the defense so much and therefore a more balance team as a whole. My biggest concern is that regardless of how great a season Keenum had and how great of a guy and how hard he works and all the positives of him (which there are many) he seems like a great guy and teamate, there is still a reason he has been a career backup so far in his career. If the vikes resign him and he comes back to earth and plays like the old Keenum then the vikings are screwed. With Cousins you know what you got. To me he is just a safer bet, as long as they dont have to over pay for him.
@"MaroonBells" said: Totally unfair when people use a QB's win/loss record to criticize his talent as a QB. There are 22 factors involved in winning and losing. About 40 if you include coaching staff. I know some bring up Cousins' record against winning teams, but I think that's a little misleading. For example, before this year, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees both had losing records against winning teams.
It's not unfair, its definitely something that has to be looked at, it shouldn't be the deciding factor though. Great QBs can lift bad teams to good records. We have seen this happen in the past.
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