Time to jump into the pool...
The pay a franchise qb salary pool...
Brez & RS will have their cap management a little more challenging moving forward. Not saying it's crippling, they're too smart for that. But they will be more challenged with so much good, young D talent to sign.
I know Sam was getting some decent coin, but I dont think we've paid anyone $20mm+ since Bert.
Hurry-up Vikings, we ain't getting any younger!
@"golfervike" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"golfervike" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"golfervike" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Wetlander" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Wetlander" said:@"purplefaithful" said: The pay a franchise qb salary pool...Brez & RS will have their cap management a little more challenging moving forward. Not saying it's crippling, they're too smart for that. But they will be more challenged with so much good, young D talent to sign.
I know Sam was getting some decent coin, but I dont think we've paid anyone $20mm+ since Bert.
True... but the Vikings had a cap hit of approximately 22.5 million with their 4 QBs last season. It didn't prevent us from signing Reiff, Remmers, Murray, and Newman in FA and handing out extensions to Rhodes, Joseph, and Griffen. With 60+ million in cap space entering this offseason, the Vikings can definitely afford to pay a QB 25-27 million per year.
I'm not really worried about the prospect of paying a QB market rate. Brez is one of the best in the business at constructing contracts and managing cap space. It's insane to think that we signed Reiff and Remmers to big deals and handed out some big extensions to Rhodes, Joseph, and Griffen last season and we STILL have 60+ million in cap space...
We'll be all right.
if they jump on cousins like some are wanting them to, 27-30 is only going to cover your starter, you will still have a back up making 2-5 million (if they are worth a shit) and Sloter who is making about 600G. Lets say 30 million is the QB number for all 3, you need to leave a rookie pool of 5.5mill, so your 60 is down to 25 really quick. We have several areas of immediate need to cover in OG, DT, CB, and K, (maybe RB 2/3) lets say you get these done for about 10 on the cheap, more likely 15 million if you go for some quality, now we are at 10-15 million with the hopes of getting some of our 2019 studs locked down this year to ease the cap crunch down the road. how far does 10-15 million go in extending Hunter, Diggs, Barr, and Kendricks? and there is always that cushion money that Rick needs to hold back for emergency signings or other opportunities that might come available.
If Cousins is serious about wanting to go somewhere to win, I think you could get him for a lower number than that. The Vikings could construct his contract to have a larger cap hit this season and have it lower the next two seasons before ballooning up on the back end of the contract. They could also give him more guarantees than any other QB to date to sweeten the pot.
Also, I wouldn't discount some in-house guys stepping up at OG, DT, and CB. We don't have to fill all those spots with FAs. As far as extending Diggs, Hunter, Kendricks, and potentially Barr... we're projected to have 60+ million in cap space in 2019 as well. The Vikings will likely have those big money extensions kick in next season like they've done with Harrison Smith and others that have been extended in the last year of their deals. They'll get their signing bonus this year, but the big cap hits won't kick in until next year.
I'm far from a cap guru, but luckily Brez is... Spielman has said they've been budgeting for a market rate QB for this season. I'm sure they were anticipating that to be Teddy when they were looking at their projected cap situation because this would have been his 5th season. The knee injury obviously threw a monkey wrench into those plans, but luckily we have a couple in-house options to choose from and Cousins on the free agent market.
Let's just quit acting like paying a QB 25 million per year is going to hamstring us. It won't in the short-term. The only way it will is if the Vikings suck at drafting the next couple seasons.as far as in house guys stepping up, you want to risk a season on it? if they werent heavy contributors last year I would be looking for somebody serviceable in FA as back up plan to at least challenge them. How much did we really get out of our reserve OG, DTs, and CBs this last year? I didnt see enough to tab any of them as a lock to start full time. I certainly wouldnt risk a 30 million dollar contract to cousins on it.
im curious, you're not willing to risk other positions, but you're willing to risk QB? arguably the most important position in all of sports?
not saying cousins is not without risk, but comparing risks between teddy/sam vs Kirk, 99.9% of people in the know would say it's not even close?
i put value on guys based on what I think they can do and with the known risks associated. I would take Sam or Teddy at 10-14 over Cousins at 28-30 all day long. i would take Cousins at 24 over Case at 20-22 all day long. im not necessarily pro or neg any 1 guy, its about getting the right guy at the right price and not feeling that we need to overspend just because other teams are desperate to sell tickets, or GMs are trying to cling to their jobs. top dollars should go to top players, brees, rogers, brady, guys that can take a team to the playoffs even without good supporting casts. 30 million is top money and I dont think cousins is a top tier guy.... a good QB, but not in that other class, less risk than Teddy or Sam yes, but not enough less risk to justify an extra 15 million per year...IMO
only thing i would debate on that is the notion of top pay.pretty much if you have a top 15 QB his next contract will be highest in NFL, because of the money coming into the NFL and rising cap spaces... and QB's are hardest commodity to find in the NFL
I know I would be a lot more certain of anything if I had the information that Rick does. Sam and Teddy are really only question marks to those of us on the outside, the team knows exactly where the risks lie with them.
right, only the inside people know. but they have not offered them a contract extension, and Teddy was inactive when it mattered most (playoffs) meaning they trust Sam more than him at least in that point in time, both off long layovers.i think if they didnt have question marks one of them would have been given an extension at this point? who the hell knows.
I think the Vikings are looking at it this way, they are interested in talking to cousins and that is why they havent moved on one of their own. we know Rick wont chase players above his mark. all thats left to find out is what is Ricks mark on cousins and will it get there before Sam or Teddy sign some where else I guess.
Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.
The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
@"pumpf" said: Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
so you are going with the most expensive option because its the most expensive option? or are you getting a good option at a good price? spending more used to mean getting more, now to often it just means that the advertising worked on you.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"pumpf" said: Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
so you are going with the most expensive option because its the most expensive option? or are you getting a good option at a good price? spending more used to mean getting more, now to often it just means that the advertising worked on you.That's not what he said.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"pumpf" said: Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
so you are going with the most expensive option because its the most expensive option? or are you getting a good option at a good price? spending more used to mean getting more, now to often it just means that the advertising worked on you.
He said sign the QB you truly believe in and pay him accordingly.
@"Purplewhizz" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"pumpf" said: Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
so you are going with the most expensive option because its the most expensive option? or are you getting a good option at a good price? spending more used to mean getting more, now to often it just means that the advertising worked on you.That's not what he said.
@"Wetlander" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"pumpf" said:
Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
so you are going with the most expensive option because its the most expensive option? or are you getting a good option at a good price? spending more used to mean getting more, now to often it just means that the advertising worked on you.
He said sign the QB you truly believe in and pay him accordingly.
he referenced his FILs advice on getting what you pay for. meaning spend more get more, which used to be the case, now its not or we would all be driving Cadillacs, but we dont because we know that they are just getting by on reputation or hype and not necessarily a better automobile. there was a time when that was the best thing going and they ran forever, but that isnt the case anymore, but they are still the most expensive. i was wagering that Pdaddy is going to get a good model at a price that is affordable and wont risk him not being able to afford braces for his daughter if need be.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Purplewhizz" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"pumpf" said: Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
so you are going with the most expensive option because its the most expensive option? or are you getting a good option at a good price? spending more used to mean getting more, now to often it just means that the advertising worked on you.That's not what he said.
@"Wetlander" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"pumpf" said:
Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
so you are going with the most expensive option because its the most expensive option? or are you getting a good option at a good price? spending more used to mean getting more, now to often it just means that the advertising worked on you.
He said sign the QB you truly believe in and pay him accordingly.
he referenced his FILs advice on getting what you pay for. meaning spend more get more, which used to be the case, now its not or we would all be driving Cadillacs, but we dont because we know that they are just getting by on reputation or hype and not necessarily a better automobile. there was a time when that was the best thing going and they ran forever, but that isnt the case anymore, but they are still the most expensive. i was wagering that Pdaddy is going to get a good model at a price that is affordable and wont risk him not being able to afford braces for his daughter if need be.
Son of Red McCombs?
He did say that... but then he concluded his post with "get the QB you truly believe in and pay him accordingly".
I don't see what is so controversial about that. You're wound so tight about the possibility of the Vikings signing Cousins to a big contract that you are reading into things that aren't there.
Every offseason the fans are trying to save the team money by preferring a second-tier FA option.
The Vikings got to the NFCC game and are returning most of their players. The big salary pot was obviously built for signing a QB this year.
The Vikes are going to do it. It's a matter of how many years they are willing to commit.
And a matter of dealing with agents who will want to use the Vikes as leverage as long as they possibly can. It wouldn't surprise me if the Vikes have already made two offers but the agents want to hold out until free agency. Cousins stated that the Skins went for the trade because they didn't want the QB contract to stretch out until March which was what he told them he was going to do. Keenum and or Bradford could be doing the same thing, or the Vikings could very well have an offer prepped for the start of FA.
Regardless, while we're all speculating and hoping, I would bet that Spielman has a plan in motion and a backup plan in place. It took him all of a day to work out the OC contract once he got the interview.
@"Wetlander" said: He did say that... but then he concluded his post with "get the QB you truly believe in and pay him accordingly".I don't see what is so controversial about that. You're wound so tight about the possibility of the Vikings signing Cousins to a big contract that you are reading into things that aren't there.
i am glad you know what i am thinking. i am hardly wound over the qb issue as i, you, or any of us has no control or input in that situation. and Pumpf and I are good, he doesnt need you to come to his rescue. I was attempting to initiate a conversation on his point as I explained.
@"FSUVike" said:Let's see how misleading it is (I don't know how it's misleading in the first place).@"silverjoel" said: There were 7 QBs with a cap hit of $20+ million last year. Throw in Manning and Luck, $19.7 million and $19.4 million respectively. Out of those 9 QBs, 2 made the playoffs (Newton and Ryan). Flacco, Cousins and Manning - no playoffs. Palmer, Tannehill, Rodgers and Luck all were out injured the majority of the year (no playoffs).Just paying a QB $20+ million does not mean that the team is going to win.
QBs of teams that made the playoffs (QB - $ millions)
Ryan - 23.7
Newton - 20.1
Brees - 19
Roethlisberger - 18.2
Smith - 16.9
Brady - 14
Taylor - 9.7
Mariota - 6.6
Bortles - 6.5
Goff - 6.3
Wentz - 6
Keenum - 1.9
This is misleading. Why? Because Brady, Brees and Ben have already received MULTIPLE contracts in their careers and are to the point that they've made so much they can afford financially and ego-wise to take smaller AAS to help the team stay competitive.And like half this list is backups and guys on rookies. How often do you think that would be the case in the Playoffs?
Wentz will be the highest paid QB at some point. When Newton is up he'll get another massive deal. It's all fluid.
Now if you told me the salary cap was never going to go up again then we'd be having a much different conversation about paying Cousins over $25k.
Playoff QBs - cap $ in millions.
2016
Eli - 24.2
Roethlisberger - 23.9
Ryan - 23.7
Stafford - 22.5
Rodgers - 19.2
Wilson - 18.5
Smith - 17.8
Brady - 13.7
Osweiler - 12
Tannehill - 11.6
Carr - 1.4
Prescott - 0.52015
Rodgers - 18.2
Peyton - 17.5
Roethlisberger - 17.2
Smith - 15.6
Brady - 14
Newton - 13
Dalton - 9.6
Palmer - 7.3
Wilson - 7
RG3/Cousins - 6.7/0.7
Hoyer/Mallett - 5.2/0.1
Bridgewater - 1.52014
Roethlisberger - 18.9
Peyton - 17.5
Rodgers - 17.5
Stafford - 15.8
Brady - 14.8
Flacco - 14.8
Palmer/Stanton - 13/2.6
Romo - 11.7
Dalton - 9
Wilson - 8
Newton - 7
Luck - 62013
Peyton - 17.5
Brees - 17.4
Brady - 13.8
Rivers - 13.7
Rodgers - 12
Smith - 8.5
Newton - 6
Luck - 5
Dalton - 1.4
Kaep - 1.4
Wilson - 0.6
Foles - 0.62012
Peyton - 18
Ryan - 13.5
Schuab - 11.7
Smith/Kaep - 9.2/1.1
Rodgers - 8.5
Brady - 8
Flacco - 8
Luck - 4
RG3 - 3.8
Ponder - 2.3
Dalton - 1.1
Wilson - 0.5
I have no issue paying top dollar for a QB... But I have a tough time believing Zim would sign off on a guy who turns the ball over as frequently as Cousins does...add to that like Romo like ability to screw the pooch at absolutely the worst time...and I have to think that's a hard pass for our one eyed jack...
There is a long list of the next great QB. I like cousins and until about 2 years ago he was the but of many jokes. He hasn't won a damn thing or proven he can elevate his team. He does put up big stats but lots of losers do. Does he have to because hi team is behind? Why are they behind? How much is his responsibility and how much is others. Why won't his own team pay hi if he is a legit QB?
There are serious questions, doesn't mean he sucks just things to be leery of. Signing a big money contract for a guy that sucks can cost you big time on missed opportunities with other FA's.
The pay him if you believe in him is true, the question is who believes in him and how much. Jimmy believes in him less than Pumpf, I'm in line with Jimmy's position, pragmantic-maybe overly so, IDK.
The challenge is making sure that you pay franchise QB money to a QB who is actually worthy of franchise QB money. Just like taking Ponder in the first round didn't make him a franchise QB.
@"NodakViking" said: There is a long list of the next great QB. I like cousins and until about 2 years ago he was the but of many jokes. He hasn't won a damn thing or proven he can elevate his team. He does put up big stats but lots of losers do. Does he have to because hi team is behind? Why are they behind? How much is his responsibility and how much is others. Why won't his own team pay hi if he is a legit QB?There are serious questions, doesn't mean he sucks just things to be leery of. Signing a big money contract for a guy that sucks can cost you big time on missed opportunities with other FA's.
The pay him if you believe in him is true, the question is who believes in him and how much. Jimmy believes in him less than Pumpf, I'm in line with Jimmy's position, pragmantic-maybe overly so, IDK.
I don't know what you mean by he hasn't won anything or elevated his team. His first year as a starter the Skins won their division, and he took that team from a 4 win team to a 9 win team. That's elevating his team by any measure.
The last 2 years it hasn't been sustained. You want to hang that on the QB or do you want to look at the organization that has been mismanaged and dysfunctional since Snyder has owned the franchise? It's no secret that he had no receivers to work with this past year, yet still were middle of the pack in points scored in the NFL. Meanwhile their defense was tied for 28th in pts. allowed per game. So you tell me why they were playing from behind.
Why won't his own team pay him, when they tagged him for 2 years, basically as a prove it deal, and now has a host of GM's willing to pay him fair market starters value? I can only come to the conclusion that it's because the management of the Skins including (Snyder) is a really a bunch of micromanaging scumbags. Jerry Jones Jr. with even less football knowledge.
https://www.gq.com/story/redskin-dan-snyder-fired-gm-new-low
@"mgobluevikes" said:@"NodakViking" said: There is a long list of the next great QB. I like cousins and until about 2 years ago he was the but of many jokes. He hasn't won a damn thing or proven he can elevate his team. He does put up big stats but lots of losers do. Does he have to because hi team is behind? Why are they behind? How much is his responsibility and how much is others. Why won't his own team pay hi if he is a legit QB?There are serious questions, doesn't mean he sucks just things to be leery of. Signing a big money contract for a guy that sucks can cost you big time on missed opportunities with other FA's.
The pay him if you believe in him is true, the question is who believes in him and how much. Jimmy believes in him less than Pumpf, I'm in line with Jimmy's position, pragmantic-maybe overly so, IDK.
I don't know what you mean by he hasn't won anything or elevated his team. His first year as a starter the Skins won their division, and he took that team from a 4 win team to a 9 win team. That's elevating his team by any measure.The last 2 years it hasn't been sustained. You want to hang that on the QB or do you want to look at the organization that has been mismanaged and dysfunctional since Snyder has owned the franchise? It's no secret that he had no receivers to work with this past year, yet still were middle of the pack in points scored in the NFL. Meanwhile their defense was tied for 28th in pts. allowed per game. So you tell me why they were playing from behind.
Why won't his own team pay him, when they tagged him for 2 years, basically as a prove it deal, and now has a host of GM's willing to pay him fair market starters value? I can only come to the conclusion that it's because the management of the Skins including (Snyder) is a really a bunch of micromanaging scumbags. Jerry Jones Jr. with even less football knowledge.
https://www.gq.com/story/redskin-dan-snyder-fired-gm-new-low
Actually in 2016 he led them to the go ahead score with 1:05 left in the game putting them up 17-13 over the Lions. The defense proceeded to let Stafford drive the length of the field and get the winning TD.He led the team down the field in overtime to the Bengals 16 yard line in London only to see the kicker miss the field goal and they game ended up tied.
They finished 8-7-1 in 2016 just missing the playoffs.
They win those two game and they would have been 10-6 and in the playoffs again.
This information is readily available if people want to do the research.
The dude has only started 3 years and should have at least 5 to 8 more years left, maybe more.
No reason to believe he is not going to continue to put up good numbers and get better at protecting the ball.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"pumpf" said: Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
so you are going with the most expensive option because its the most expensive option? or are you getting a good option at a good price? spending more used to mean getting more, now to often it just means that the advertising worked on you.Everyone in the industry said that this was the best model available. Some of the stores we contacted said that they wished they could carry this particular brand, because it is so good. But the reason it is so good is that they are made right... and, therefore, are not mass-produced. Hence, you can't get this particular brand at most "big-box" stores. So, to answer your question: we're going with the most expensive option- because it's the best one available. And we figure that- in the long run- it will pay for itself by being reliable and functional.
@"pumpf" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"pumpf" said: Here's what I know: my family needs a new washing machine. So we have a choice: we can go the "cheap" route... and hope for the best. Or we can pay now... with the expectation that this next one is going to last a while. My father-in-law once told me: you get what you pay for. We're getting the good washing machine.The Vikings can go "cheap" and hope for the best... or they can get the QB that they truly believe in (whoever that may be) and pay him accordingly.
so you are going with the most expensive option because its the most expensive option? or are you getting a good option at a good price? spending more used to mean getting more, now to often it just means that the advertising worked on you.Everyone in the industry said that this was the best model available. Some of the stores we contacted said that they wished they could carry this particular brand, because it is so good. But the reason it is so good is that they are made right... and, therefore, are not mass-produced. Hence, you can't get this particular brand at most "big-box" stores. So, to answer your question: we're going with the most expensive option- because it's the best one available. And we figure that- in the long run- it will pay for itself by being reliable and functional.
Speedqueen?
@"Wetlander" said: He did say that... but then he concluded his post with "get the QB you truly believe in and pay him accordingly".I don't see what is so controversial about that. You're wound so tight about the possibility of the Vikings signing Cousins to a big contract that you are reading into things that aren't there.
Just so you know, Jimmy and I are good. He's the only one around here that I've been able to connect with- in person- and I greatly enjoy our visits. So... I don't take anything Jimmy says "personally". I wish that all of us here could be that way: know each other outside of the board- and treat one another as buddies... not adversaries.
That being said, yes: if Cousins is the best option, we should absolutely pay the man. But that's a big IF.
@"golfervike" said: right, only the inside people know. but they have not offered them a contract extension, and Teddy was inactive when it mattered most (playoffs) meaning they trust Sam more than him at least in that point in time, both off long layovers.i think if they didnt have question marks one of them would have been given an extension at this point? who the hell knows.
But do we fans know whether contract extensions have been offered? I don't think we ever see that until terms have been agreed (except in cases where a formal offer is submitted by a deadline for an RFA or such). The FO is likely having discussions with players and their agents which we do not hear about, so it is possible that the Vikings offered Keenum some type of extension last fall - but it may have been something like $30M over 3 years and Keenum rejected it. Similarly, people propose the Vikings should offer Bridgewater a short term deal for something like $5-$7M per year...maybe they have offered! Blame the guy who didn't accept those deals, too.
All we know is the Vikings have probably not offered any of their 3 veteran QBs a deal that makes them feel they received enough in terms of both compensation and assurance he is "the guy" - probably "the ONLY guy". Or one of these QBs may have made up their mind to leave Minnesota regardless and stopped negotiating.
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