Your QB choice is
If it were up to you who would you want starting at QB
@"Poiple" said:@"Steve" said: Vikings get to the NFC Championship game because Keenum dealt with pressure better than any QB coming off the pine in history, and fans want to replace him with the guy who led the league in interceptions under pressure last year.If Keenum won 9 games last year, people would be all over him talking about his potential. Instead, he gets one game shy of the Superbowl and everyone is window shopping replacements.
well said. Im amazed, but shouldn’t be. Most teams would be looking for a way to lock him down and looking forward to next year. Vike fans deserve the misery that follows them lol
Yep... and most teams aren't really trying to win a Super Bowl. We are. Case is good enough- with a good enough supporting cast... to get a team to the NFCCG. But can he win it? And, if he does, can he also win a SB? I don't think so.So... if getting to the championship game is enough for you, fine. But how about you don't "judge" the other fans who just might want the team to achieve something more before they die?
If you're going to assume healthy you need to measure them by their raw traits. In my opinion it puts them in this order:
1. Bradford
2. Teddy
3. Kirk
4. Case
Case operated well in the offense last season but each of the other QB's has one or multiple traits that can be used to separate themselves. Bradford has an elite arm with pinpoint accuracy. Teddy has the best ability to anticipate throwing windows and maneuver the pocket. Kirk has good downfield accuracy and although he doesn't have the elite traits is almost of mix of both Bradford and Teddy (minus the pocket presence).
If money is not an object (and the Vikings do have oodles of cap space) Cousins is easily the most proven of the bunch. Sam's 2016 seems to be a fluke.. nearly every other season he's gone down with something. Teddy I expect at worst to be his 2015 self, but with a much better cast surrounding him. He'll also be the cheapest of the 4. Keenum played waaay over his previous career level... then yacked 3 turnovers in the NFCCG. Will the team that signs him get a true starter or another Scott Erickson?
How I'd rank them:
1. Cousins. Mucho $$$, but also mucho production.
2. Teddy. His 2014-15 ypa was higher than Bradford's 2016. Plus will come cheap enough to spend the free agent $$ at other positions.
3. Keenum. Not just a backup, but I think 2017 is going to get him overpaid while he regresses towards his mean in 2018.
4. Bradford. I was really high on him after 2016, and then... back to reality. You simply cannot trust this guy to remain upright. Teddy's had 1 major injury. Cousins and Keenum have had nothing serious. Bradford is a 1-man medical residency.
Under the original premise, this is a no brainer...Bradford, Teddy, Cousins, Case...but that scenario doesn't exist in the real world...
Based on what Flipper is looking for, Bradford is first man off the list...Cousins is a a bakery full over turnovers and would probably be the most expensive of the four, so Brez and Zim give him a hard pass...I'd give Teddy a 1 year deal at about 75% of what he would have earned under his 5th year option with the right to compete for QB1...I'll assume Flipper could maximize Case at least as well as Shurmur did...I'd give Keenum a 3 year deal for about 55 million with modest guaranteed money...
The wildcard is Sloter...on the hoof right now, he has the most long term appeal...I would love to be a fly on the wall as Flipper reviews the scout team tape...not the guy for 2018, but no one thought Case could win 13 games either...
Bradford is the most talented QB on the roster, that's just a fact. He was the #1 overall pick in the Draft for a reason. Has he fulfilled that potential? No, of course not. But you can see that talent and he's displayed it more consistently in his short time as a Viking than he ever has. But that knee....
as was said it depends on what healthy means. if healthy means they make it through the year then bradford is the most talented but do you risk a superbowl team on his knee?
Be nice if the OP made this a real-world poll vs fantasy...
50% of that poll are unknowns with BIG questions on Bridgewater and Bradford (at least from a fans perspective, maybe coaches know more)
So that leaves Cousins or Case...Dont see Case having to settle for moderate, guaranteed $, so where does that leave our team?
It's hard for me to see this team giving Case the kind of money he earned by taking a team to the NFCC. Like with Nick Foles, there are just too many other factors contributing to his success. Let the foolish teams throw big money at guys like Bulger and Delhomme...er, I mean Foles and Case.
I think the Vikings will look hard at Cousins, but giving him a big, multi-year contract ends all conversation about the other QBs. Tempting, but hard to see.
Bradford has the most arm talent on the team, but that knee. Two ACLs, and a season lost due to residual problems. I think folks are putting too much weight into Flip's comment about QB mobility tho. Bradford is no Case or Teddy, but he's no Byron Leftwich either. I can see the Vikings wanting him back on a short term, especially considering his price will be low, but Bradford ONLY comes back as one of two.
Teddy's the other one. Teddy has the most long-term potential. Doesn't have quite the arm Sam has, but his timing and accuracy is just as good. His vision and composure in the pocket is uncanny. He's mobile, elusive and has impeccable character. In short, he is a franchise QB, former 1st round draft pick whom we've invested a lot of time and money into. This is not a guy you move on from unless there are serious concerns about the knee. The ONLY way Teddy doesn't come back is the knee.
@"purplefaithful" said: Be nice if the OP made this a real-world poll vs fantasy...50% of that poll are unknowns with BIG questions on Bridgewater and Bradford (at least from a fans perspective, maybe coaches know more)
So that leaves Cousins or Case...Dont see Case having to settle for moderate, guaranteed $, so where does that leave our team?
The issue I have with Case is the contract. I don't disagree with him or his agent if they are shopping for a 3 year big money deal ($18+M per year), this business is about utilizing leverage. From how the Vikings have played the situation thus far its hard to see them locking themselves into Case until they can see him repeat what he did in 2017. That gives you two options the franchise tag & transition tag. The franchise tag will be roughly $23.5M and it simply assures the Vikings that Case is their QB entering 2018. The transition tag would save them roughly $2M (20.5M) but allows them to scour the market for other options before fully committing to Case. The risk is that another team could offer him a deal the Vikings do not want to match.
Ultimately I think this will become a game of musical chairs. The Vikings should and will most likely transition tag case for $20.5M heading into the off-season. I'd find it unlikely his camp will sign the tag in hopes of finding a more long-term deal. That gives the Vikings a chance to explore the market for Cousins, Taylor, etc... Ultimately Kirk seems likely to land in either Denver or Minnesota. He should be the first domino to fall. After that domino falls the Vikings can either renounce the transition tag or work out a deal with Case before another team offers him a deal the Vikings do not want to match. Its a risky choice to make, but committing to Case without exploring your other options is just as risky in my opinion.
@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Be nice if the OP made this a real-world poll vs fantasy...50% of that poll are unknowns with BIG questions on Bridgewater and Bradford (at least from a fans perspective, maybe coaches know more)
So that leaves Cousins or Case...Dont see Case having to settle for moderate, guaranteed $, so where does that leave our team?
The issue I have with Case is the contract. I don't disagree with him or his agent if they are shopping for a 3 year big money deal ($18+M per year), this business is about utilizing leverage. From how the Vikings have played the situation thus far its hard to see them locking themselves into Case until they can see him repeat what he did in 2017. That gives you two options the franchise tag & transition tag. The franchise tag will be roughly $23.5M and it simply assures the Vikings that Case is their QB entering 2018. The transition tag would save them roughly $2M (20.5M) but allows them to scour the market for other options before fully committing to Case. The risk is that another team could offer him a deal the Vikings do not want to match.Ultimately I think this will become a game of musical chairs. The Vikings should and will most likely transition tag case for $20.5M heading into the off-season. I'd find it unlikely his camp will sign the tag in hopes of finding a more long-term deal. That gives the Vikings a chance to explore the market for Cousins, Taylor, etc... Ultimately Kirk seems likely to land in either Denver or Minnesota. He should be the first domino to fall. After that domino falls the Vikings can either renounce the transition tag or work out a deal with Case before another team offers him a deal the Vikings do not want to match. Its a risky choice to make, but committing to Case without exploring your other options is just as risky in my opinion.
Where does Teddy fit in the above scenario? (And forgive me if you've already answered that question elsewhere)
@"willbjammin" said: If it were up to you who would you want starting at QBWho is your choiceBut these aren't realistic choices because no one can know if Bradford or Bridgewater are "100% healthy" or going to be for the length of whatever contract they sign. If you include those, you should also include:
- A 100% healthy Sam bradford
- A 100% healthy Teddy Bridgewater
- Case Kenneum
- kirk Cousins
3. Certain to continue winning 76% of all games Case Keenum 4. Definitely throws half as many INTs in MN Kirk Cousins
@"Geoff Nichols" said: That gives the Vikings a chance to explore the market for Cousins, Taylor, etc....Whoa - you kind of slipped in a little alternative contender there. Does the Vikings' front office have interest in Tyrod Taylor (assuming the Bills do release him)? That would probably not excite many fans...but I could see the logic of him in a scheme emphasizing RPO.
@"Jor-El" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said: That gives the Vikings a chance to explore the market for Cousins, Taylor, etc.... Whoa - you kind of slipped in a little alternative contender there. Does the Vikings' front office have interest in Tyrod Taylor (assuming the Bills do release him)? That would probably not excite many fans...but I could see the logic of him in a scheme emphasizing RPO.
I hope is referring to taylor as a back up QB.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said: That gives the Vikings a chance to explore the market for Cousins, Taylor, etc.... Whoa - you kind of slipped in a little alternative contender there. Does the Vikings' front office have interest in Tyrod Taylor (assuming the Bills do release him)? That would probably not excite many fans...but I could see the logic of him in a scheme emphasizing RPO.
I hope is referring to taylor as a back up QB.
I don't know, but I would like that idea. No matter which QB we choose, we're going to need a veteran backup. I've looked around the free agent lists and there just aren't a lot of good options.
Geoff, in your opinion, what do you think are realistic salaries for each of the QBs on the open market?
I pick Bridgewater. I
don’t think any of these guys is the currently the complete package that anyone
is hoping for, so I pick Bridgewater because I’m comfortable with his floor and
excited about his potential. He’s the
most likely to become a great QB. He’s
accurate across the vast majority of the field (Higher completion % than
Bradford over their careers). He’s got
the it factor that I think is essential for good QBs. I think his only drawbacks are his deep out
accuracy (which I think he’ll have fixed through hard work, and is probably
already fixed in practice at least) and his knee.
Cousins is the lowest risk, highest cost. I think you’re ultimately paying for his
durability and good production. I
struggle with Cousins because I don’t see the flashes of greatness
anywhere. I’m not sure how he gets his
numbers. I’m not sure if he has the it
factor. I’m not sure his production
leads to wins or is he another goodish QB whose team always ends up around 8-8.
Keenum and Bradford are a tie for me. I think they are polar opposites in terms of
style. Keenum is mobile and has the it
factor. I worry about his accuracy and
decision making. If he’s even marginally
closer to his career history for ints, the season looks way different. He played well this year, but I can’t help
but think that his style clashes with what Zimmer wants in a QB. Bradford makes good decisions but I don’t
think he’s a winner or has that it factor.
I think he’d be a cheaper Cousins if he plays the whole year, but it’s
hard to ignore that he’s been injured for almost half his career.
I should also point out that I trust this team to be playoff good with any of the aforementioned teams.
@"pumpf" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Be nice if the OP made this a real-world poll vs fantasy...50% of that poll are unknowns with BIG questions on Bridgewater and Bradford (at least from a fans perspective, maybe coaches know more)
So that leaves Cousins or Case...Dont see Case having to settle for moderate, guaranteed $, so where does that leave our team?
The issue I have with Case is the contract. I don't disagree with him or his agent if they are shopping for a 3 year big money deal ($18+M per year), this business is about utilizing leverage. From how the Vikings have played the situation thus far its hard to see them locking themselves into Case until they can see him repeat what he did in 2017. That gives you two options the franchise tag & transition tag. The franchise tag will be roughly $23.5M and it simply assures the Vikings that Case is their QB entering 2018. The transition tag would save them roughly $2M (20.5M) but allows them to scour the market for other options before fully committing to Case. The risk is that another team could offer him a deal the Vikings do not want to match.Ultimately I think this will become a game of musical chairs. The Vikings should and will most likely transition tag case for $20.5M heading into the off-season. I'd find it unlikely his camp will sign the tag in hopes of finding a more long-term deal. That gives the Vikings a chance to explore the market for Cousins, Taylor, etc... Ultimately Kirk seems likely to land in either Denver or Minnesota. He should be the first domino to fall. After that domino falls the Vikings can either renounce the transition tag or work out a deal with Case before another team offers him a deal the Vikings do not want to match. Its a risky choice to make, but committing to Case without exploring your other options is just as risky in my opinion.
Where does Teddy fit in the above scenario? (And forgive me if you've already answered that question elsewhere)
Its tough to say because Bridgewater's preference will become a factor. The Vikings would probably love to have him back, but they won't name him the starter. Will another team make him the incumbent going into camp? Hard to say. But if one did he probably would gravitate in that direction. If other teams are offering him backup contracts his best bet may be to stay in MN due to their continued commitment to him. Ultimately the Vikings aren't going to tag him so he can do whatever he wants. The wildcard is if his contract tolls. That would tie him at the hip to the Vikings.
@"Jor-El" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said: That gives the Vikings a chance to explore the market for Cousins, Taylor, etc.... Whoa - you kind of slipped in a little alternative contender there. Does the Vikings' front office have interest in Tyrod Taylor (assuming the Bills do release him)? That would probably not excite many fans...but I could see the logic of him in a scheme emphasizing RPO.
I don't know the Vikings interest in Taylor now, but they were interested in him before his stint in Buffalo. So you can kind of connect a few dots. If Case is going to get a long-term deal off the transition tag the Vikings do not match I could see Taylor/Bridgewater as a viable option.
@"BsuZagVike" said: Geoff, in your opinion, what do you think are realistic salaries for each of the QBs on the open market?Kirk - Anywhere between $27M - $30+M over 5 years seems like the wheelhouse. Guaranteed money will dictate which end of that range the AAV falls into. No matter what, Cousins will have a short stint as the NFL highest paid player. Which is fair considering no top 15 QB's hit the market without strings attached.
Keenum - Without considering the use of the franchise or transition tags, Case and his agent should search for a deal in the range of $20M annually over 3 years. Do they get that? I don't know. But depending on interest that could drop all the way towards $16M or increase into the Alex Smith range $23.5M. If the Vikings keep Keenum it will likely be by using the transition tag and either letting him play out the tag or negotiating a team friendly extension if there isn't a ton of outside interest.
Bradford - If he decides to play next year a team will give him an incentive laden contract that starts in the $7.5M range. Incentives (mainly attached to his health) could drive it upwards. He won't get more than a prove-it deal in my opinion. But its Sam Bradford, people are tantalized by his arm, so who knows.
Bridgewater - This is the real wild card. Its really hard to peg a value on Teddy. An incentive driven $7.5M deal seems right for him as well. But it could be substantially less or more depending on how teams other than the Vikings view his potential.
@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"BsuZagVike" said: Geoff, in your opinion, what do you think are realistic salaries for each of the QBs on the open market? Kirk - Anywhere between $27M - $30+M over 5 years seems like the wheelhouse. Guaranteed money will dictate which end of that range the AAV falls into. No matter what, Cousins will have a short stint as the NFL highest paid player. Which is fair considering no top 15 QB's hit the market without strings attached.Keenum - Without considering the use of the franchise or transition tags, Case and his agent should search for a deal in the range of $20M annually over 3 years. Do they get that? I don't know. But depending on interest that could drop all the way towards $16M or increase into the Alex Smith range $23.5M. If the Vikings keep Keenum it will likely be by using the transition tag and either letting him play out the tag or negotiating a team friendly extension if there isn't a ton of outside interest.
Bradford - If he decides to play next year a team will give him an incentive laden contract that starts in the $7.5M range. Incentives (mainly attached to his health) could drive it upwards. He won't get more than a prove-it deal in my opinion. But its Sam Bradford, people are tantalized by his arm, so who knows.
Bridgewater - This is the real wild card. Its really hard to peg a value on Teddy. An incentive driven $7.5M deal seems right for him as well. But it could be substantially less or more depending on how teams other than the Vikings view his potential.
Thanks for that. That's exactly what I was thinking for Kirk and Keenum, but I've had a hard time figuring out the market for Bradford and Bridgewater.
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