Shades of ‘98. Why We Need Teddy For the Playoffs
i posted this over on Reddit a couple weeks ago thought I would start posting over here more again, the content still fits and it should spark some interesting conversation.
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In 1998 the Vikings had their best ever regular season. 15-1, and set an NFL single season scoring record that had stood for 15 years. This team was high flying with a great OL, a very good RB and a spectacular group of pass catchers. And their D was much more solid than People gave them credit for. Great at taking the ball away and holding teams off from TDS while in the red zone.
At the start of the year, the team was led by Brad Johnson, young passer entering the prime of his career. Solid and unspectacular, he had a strong arm, was smart and made good decisions. His backup was Randall Cunningham. Randall has been a huge deal as the starter in Philly in the late 80s, early 90s. He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated billed as “Football’s ultimate weapon”. He ultimately left Philly in the Mid 90s when OC John Gruden and his Wc Offense arrived and Randall was unable (or unwilling) to learn it. Randall retired and went to Vegas, only to be talked out of retirement in 1997 to become Johnson’s back up.
Randall led the Vikes to a playoff win in 1997, after he took over late in the season after Johnson got hurt. The team scored two TDS in the last 4 minutes to stun the NYG. Johnson recovered from his injury and resumed his place as the leader of the offense while RC went back to the bench. But there was some minor controversy brewing.
The 1998 draft brought Randy Moss and Randy and Randall had great chemistry in Training camp. Stories of the connecting in bombs filled the camp reports and continued during the preseason. But the start of the season brought a solid victory over the Bucs (31-3? - I’m going strictly by memory here) with Randy catching two TD passes. The next week brought them to STL, which was a bottom dwelling team but one with some really good players on it. In it Johnson got an injury on a late hit and Randall came in and led the team to victory and they were off and running.
The victories mounted in a rain of long bombs to the WRs and great runs by Robert smith. RC was enjoying a rebirth, but Denny was always very coy about who his starter would be. Saying it would be Johnson when he was “healthy” but not really defining healthy. There was a minor hiccup in TB where they were exposed a bit as being vulnerable to power running teams, but even that was a tough victory for a TB squad that pulled out all the stops in what I think was Tony Dungy’s finest coaching performance. And then a game against NO came. Johnson was finally healthy enough to dress on a game day and just like that, RC goes down to injury and Johnson came in and led the team to victory over a lesser opponent.
Should have been a great time to transition back, but Johnson suffered another injury, Randall Cunningham decided he could play with a broken left wrist (much to QB3 Jay Fielder’s chagrin), and the Vikes start rolling even more with blow out victory after blow out victory. Eventually Johnson got back, but RC was named the starter for the rest of the season and given a contract extension. The Vikings were all in with Randall.
But Randall had a weakness - and that weakness was playoff football. Despite taking some great teams to the playoffs in Philly, he was 1-4 as a starter with a QB rating around 66 (which is sub Ponder territory). In the playoffs the opponents are better, things are more conservative, and there is just a lot of pressure. Some players do better than others, and Randall had never done well, with the lone exception of the last 4 minutes the previous year against the NYGs.
So, the Playoffs arrive and the Vikes blow the Cardinals out like 44-10 in game one, setting up a match against perennial bottom dwellers the Atlanta Falcons. Now, everyone overlooked the Falcons, but they shouldn’t have. The Falcons were 14-2 themselves that year and were a team led by a vet QB, Chris Chandler, and were seemingly made to order to beat the smaller Viking defense with power runner Jamal Anderson.
The Vikes did a great job early, jumping out to a 17-7 lead right before the half, when Randall fumbled deep in our territory, ATL recovered and promptly scored a TD bringing the score to 17-14 at the half.
In the second half the Vikes offense stalled as ATL took the deep stuff away and Randall kept trying to force it, not recognizing that they were leaving plenty of intermediate and short stuff available. The Vikes were able to score early in Q4 to push the lead to 27-17. After that moment for the rest of the quarter, Randall went 3-8 for 25 yards, took a sack and also fumbled the ball away giving the Falcons the ball at MN’s 30.
The game went into over time, during which time Randal was 2-8 for 23 yards and a sack. He got the ball on his own 29 and 27 yardlines, much better starting position that the Falcons got Which was their own 15 and 9.
The O, which had led the team all year, lost that game. It wasn’t injuries as lore would have you believe. Go back and read (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199901170min.htm#all_pbp) this was all in the O.
So, what does this have to do with Case Keenum?
Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB.
If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call.
I don’t write this to be disrespectful of either Keenum or Randall. They both did great jobs in their roles. But if we ask them to go beyond their roles, woe be onto us as they remind us who they are.
Great QBs make 0-1 bad decisions or throws a game
Good QBs make 2-3
Average QBs make 4-5
Below average QBs make more than that. Keenum typically makes 4-5 bad throws and decisions a game. he, like Randall, is very capable of steering a loaded team into the playoffs. But at that point it will just be a matter of time until our hearts are broken again.
We need Teddy.
Skol.
@"headhunt23" said:@"Mike Olson" said: Man if anyone doesn't think that both Randall Cunningham AND Brad Johnson both got bailed out by three deep..... I don't know what they were watching. That isn't to say that they didn't both play well..... But without Moss's ability those deep throws don't get completed nearly enough. Jake Reed was the master of the circus catch (and oddly enough he dropped some easy catches) and Carter.... come on.... It's Carter.
My point was that one QB relied on a lot more of those long bomb plays than the other. You didnt see Johnson chucking it up deep to covered WRs and letting them make a play.And the ‘98 team was fun to watch...until it wasn’t. Randall left a lot of stuff on the table in that second half when he kept trying to throw it deep to Moss.
Johnson wouldnt have done that. And I will go to my grave knowing (not thinking) that Johnson wins that game.
I seem to remember Johnson throwing to a double and triple covered Moss plenty. And for good reason.
@"golfervike" said: "Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB. If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.
First of all, the word you looking for is “assumption” not “hyperbole”. There is absolutely nothing hyperbolic about what I wrote. I do make lots of assumption, mainly that Case Keenum is Case Keenum and will remain Case Keenum.
And I make those assumptions because, as doucey as this sounds, because I know you are too, I’m watching the games.
in Keenum I see a QB that makes 4-5 totally WTF throws a game. You can get by with that when youre playing the Browns or the Aaron Rodgers-less Packers (when he threw one pick and had defenders get hands on three more which they dropped). You arent going to get by with it against Philly.
I also see a QB whose stats are boosted by the play calling in the Red Zone. Yes. Keenum has 4 TD passes yesterday. Average distance traveled was about 4 yards. The long was about 7. In 2015 We run the ball in that situation, which is one of the reasons Teddy’s TD numbers were always low. Hell, in 2014 Matt Asiata had like 9 rushing TDs.
I also see a QB who lacks the arm strength to thrownthe 20 yard out. Keenum is good at throwing fly routes (and actually Ponder was decent at this as well), and other routes where he doesn’t have to put a zip on the ball. I’d say its great he knows this linitation, but he just tried throwing a 15 yard out to Rudolph that was almost returned for a TD when he threw it late and didnt see the safety.
Lastly I see a QB playing behind a top 10 offensive line, which is a far better unit than we had in 2015, throwing to WRs that are better than we had in 2015, and in an offensive system that is better designed for the QB instead of for the RB.
Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s. He will make 3-4 more of those a game, and those 3-4 are often the difference between winning and losing.
Case Keenum is a GREAT back up. I LOVE him as a back up. So glad he gas been here and hes a beautiful success story for Rick for getting him in here. But he wont beat Brees or Brady in the playoffs.
And Ill admit that Teddy might not either. Because Teddy usually gave us 2 or so WTF moments a week. But hes a better bet than Keenum.
@"headhunt23" said:@"golfervike" said: "Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB. If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.
First of all, the word you looking for is “assumption” not “hyperbole”. There is absolutely nothing hyperbolic about what I wrote. I do make lots of assumption, mainly that Case Keenum is Case Keenum and will remain Case Keenum.And I make those assumptions because, as doucey as this sounds, because I know you are too, I’m watching the games.
in Keenum I see a QB that makes 4-5 totally WTF throws a game. You can get by with that when youre playing the Browns or the Aaron Rodgers-less Packers (when he threw one pick and had defenders get hands on three more which they dropped). You arent going to get by with it against Philly.
I also see a QB whose stats are boosted by the play calling in the Red Zone. Yes. Keenum has 4 TD passes yesterday. Average distance traveled was about 4 yards. The long was about 7. In 2015 We run the ball in that situation, which is one of the reasons Teddy’s TD numbers were always low. Hell, in 2014 Matt Asiata had like 9 rushing TDs.
I also see a QB who lacks the arm strength to thrownthe 20 yard out. Keenum is good at throwing fly routes (and actually Ponder was decent at this as well), and other routes where he doesn’t have to put a zip on the ball. I’d say its great he knows this linitation, but he just tried throwing a 15 yard out to Rudolph that was almost returned for a TD when he threw it late and didnt see the safety.
Lastly I see a QB playing behind a top 10 offensive line, which is a far better unit than we had in 2015, throwing to WRs that are better than we had in 2015, and in an offensive system that is better designed for the QB instead of for the RB.
Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s. He will make 3-4 more of those a game, and those 3-4 are often the difference between winning and losing.
Case Keenum is a GREAT back up. I LOVE him as a back up. So glad he gas been here and hes a beautiful success story for Rick for getting him in here. But he wont beat Brees or Brady in the playoffs.
And Ill admit that Teddy might not either. Because Teddy usually gave us 2 or so WTF moments a week. But hes a better bet than Keenum.
I agree with what you said on almost all counts, i just worry Teddy is going to be far worse than Keenum in the immediate, and i dont think a player should lose his spot when they're winning and he's contributing to winning, and he's got the locker room behind him.
Good post, Headhunt. I said the same thing about the Johnson/Cunningham debate way back then and I'm saying the same thing now. Don't be fooled by Keenum.
@"golfervike" said:@"headhunt23" said:@"golfervike" said: "Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB. If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.
First of all, the word you looking for is “assumption” not “hyperbole”. There is absolutely nothing hyperbolic about what I wrote. I do make lots of assumption, mainly that Case Keenum is Case Keenum and will remain Case Keenum.And I make those assumptions because, as doucey as this sounds, because I know you are too, I’m watching the games.
in Keenum I see a QB that makes 4-5 totally WTF throws a game. You can get by with that when youre playing the Browns or the Aaron Rodgers-less Packers (when he threw one pick and had defenders get hands on three more which they dropped). You arent going to get by with it against Philly.
I also see a QB whose stats are boosted by the play calling in the Red Zone. Yes. Keenum has 4 TD passes yesterday. Average distance traveled was about 4 yards. The long was about 7. In 2015 We run the ball in that situation, which is one of the reasons Teddy’s TD numbers were always low. Hell, in 2014 Matt Asiata had like 9 rushing TDs.
I also see a QB who lacks the arm strength to thrownthe 20 yard out. Keenum is good at throwing fly routes (and actually Ponder was decent at this as well), and other routes where he doesn’t have to put a zip on the ball. I’d say its great he knows this linitation, but he just tried throwing a 15 yard out to Rudolph that was almost returned for a TD when he threw it late and didnt see the safety.
Lastly I see a QB playing behind a top 10 offensive line, which is a far better unit than we had in 2015, throwing to WRs that are better than we had in 2015, and in an offensive system that is better designed for the QB instead of for the RB.
Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s. He will make 3-4 more of those a game, and those 3-4 are often the difference between winning and losing.
Case Keenum is a GREAT back up. I LOVE him as a back up. So glad he gas been here and hes a beautiful success story for Rick for getting him in here. But he wont beat Brees or Brady in the playoffs.
And Ill admit that Teddy might not either. Because Teddy usually gave us 2 or so WTF moments a week. But hes a better bet than Keenum.
I agree with what you said on almost all counts, i just worry Teddy is going to be far worse than Keenum in the immediate, and i dont think a player should lose his spot when they're winning and he's contributing to winning, and he's got the locker room behind him.
valid concerns, i think those calling for Teddy to get the nod when ready have the same concerns.difference is we have greater concerns with the limitations in Case's game and are not glossing them over with things like W-L records or stats against weak defenses.
either way.. its gonna be a fun ride with meaningful games down the stretch at least, regardless of who is at QB.
I can buy the argument about Case getting lucky for 1 or 2 or even 3 weeks, but half a season? Come on.
Here are the top 10 in ESPN QBR so far this year:
| 1 | Deshaun Watson, HOU | 29.4 | 21.8 | 12.5 | 3.6 | 44.2 | 281 | 81.5 | 81.6 |
| 2 | Dak Prescott, DAL | 31.5 | 28.8 | 19.2 | 2.5 | 56.5 | 366 | 77.2 | 74.9 |
| 3 | Case Keenum, MIN | 23.5 | 37.2 | 3.8 | 4.7 | 48.2 | 300 | 75.2 | 72.6 |
| 4 | Carson Wentz, PHI | 27.3 | 36.6 | 8.2 | 3.8 | 57.8 | 381 | 73.4 | 70.6 |
| 5 | Tom Brady, NE | 27.2 | 48.1 | -2.0 | 4.6 | 60.3 | 407 | 72.0 | 69.7 |
| 6 | Aaron Rodgers, GB | 9.2 | 13.4 | 5.4 | 2.3 | 29.2 | 253 | 62.6 | 63.3 |
| 7 | Kirk Cousins, WSH | 11.7 | 26.3 | 3.9 | 2.1 | 43.5 | 378 | 60.7 | 62.9 |
| 8 | Alex Smith, KC | 15.4 | 34.1 | 5.0 | -0.1 | 50.0 | 376 | 64.1 | 62.5 |
| 9 | Matt Ryan, ATL | 11.8 | 30.6 | 2.7 | 2.2 | 43.1 | 346 | 61.9 | 59.6 |
| 10 | Drew Brees, NO | 11.0 | 32.4 | 0.8 | 0.1 | 36.3 | 333 | 61.5 | 59.5 |
I think we could all easily agree that the everyone outside of Keenum in that group is a good to great QB. But Case has somehow just lucked his way into that group over 7.5 games and is no better than a career backup? I just don't buy it.
I'm also not saying that he is a top 3 QB obviously, but I don't see any way that he can be benched after what he has done with this team this year.
Case Keenums Opponents
Steelers 7-2 / #2 defense pts allowed
Bucs 3-6 / #18D
Lions 5-4 / #20 D
Bears 4-5 #13 D
Packers 5-4( one W without Rogers) #17 D
Ravens 4-5 #7 D
Browns 0-9 #29 D
Redskins 4-5 #26 D
He can only play who the schedule makers have on the schedule and part of these rankings are because they played against the Vikings, but he hasnt really been beating a murders row of defenses.
it will be what it is, but the argument can be made either way on Case.
@"golfervike" said:@"headhunt23" said:@"golfervike" said: "Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB. If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.
First of all, the word you looking for is “assumption” not “hyperbole”. There is absolutely nothing hyperbolic about what I wrote. I do make lots of assumption, mainly that Case Keenum is Case Keenum and will remain Case Keenum.And I make those assumptions because, as doucey as this sounds, because I know you are too, I’m watching the games.
in Keenum I see a QB that makes 4-5 totally WTF throws a game. You can get by with that when youre playing the Browns or the Aaron Rodgers-less Packers (when he threw one pick and had defenders get hands on three more which they dropped). You arent going to get by with it against Philly.
I also see a QB whose stats are boosted by the play calling in the Red Zone. Yes. Keenum has 4 TD passes yesterday. Average distance traveled was about 4 yards. The long was about 7. In 2015 We run the ball in that situation, which is one of the reasons Teddy’s TD numbers were always low. Hell, in 2014 Matt Asiata had like 9 rushing TDs.
I also see a QB who lacks the arm strength to thrownthe 20 yard out. Keenum is good at throwing fly routes (and actually Ponder was decent at this as well), and other routes where he doesn’t have to put a zip on the ball. I’d say its great he knows this linitation, but he just tried throwing a 15 yard out to Rudolph that was almost returned for a TD when he threw it late and didnt see the safety.
Lastly I see a QB playing behind a top 10 offensive line, which is a far better unit than we had in 2015, throwing to WRs that are better than we had in 2015, and in an offensive system that is better designed for the QB instead of for the RB.
Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s. He will make 3-4 more of those a game, and those 3-4 are often the difference between winning and losing.
Case Keenum is a GREAT back up. I LOVE him as a back up. So glad he gas been here and hes a beautiful success story for Rick for getting him in here. But he wont beat Brees or Brady in the playoffs.
And Ill admit that Teddy might not either. Because Teddy usually gave us 2 or so WTF moments a week. But hes a better bet than Keenum.
I agree with what you said on almost all counts, i just worry Teddy is going to be far worse than Keenum in the immediate, and i dont think a player should lose his spot when they're winning and he's contributing to winning, and he's got the locker room behind him.
Why would Zimmer and Shurmer put him in if there was a chance Teddy would be far worse? The unspoken assumption about putting Teddy in is that what the coaches are seeing from him in practice is as good as what they're seeing from Case. If Teddy's looking really rusty in practice, then of course no Viking fan wants him in yet.
@"Scoog" said: Why would Zimmer and Shurmer put him in if there was a chance Teddy would be far worse? The unspoken assumption about putting Teddy in is that what the coaches are seeing from him in practice is as good as what they're seeing from Case. If Teddy's looking really rusty in practice, then of course no Viking fan wants him in yet.
Well there is the thought (and it's a good one) that they need to see how he is in a game before the end of the season because they have to figure out if and at what level they are going to offer a contract.
@"Scoog" said:@"golfervike" said:@"headhunt23" said:@"golfervike" said: "Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB. If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.
First of all, the word you looking for is “assumption” not “hyperbole”. There is absolutely nothing hyperbolic about what I wrote. I do make lots of assumption, mainly that Case Keenum is Case Keenum and will remain Case Keenum.And I make those assumptions because, as doucey as this sounds, because I know you are too, I’m watching the games.
in Keenum I see a QB that makes 4-5 totally WTF throws a game. You can get by with that when youre playing the Browns or the Aaron Rodgers-less Packers (when he threw one pick and had defenders get hands on three more which they dropped). You arent going to get by with it against Philly.
I also see a QB whose stats are boosted by the play calling in the Red Zone. Yes. Keenum has 4 TD passes yesterday. Average distance traveled was about 4 yards. The long was about 7. In 2015 We run the ball in that situation, which is one of the reasons Teddy’s TD numbers were always low. Hell, in 2014 Matt Asiata had like 9 rushing TDs.
I also see a QB who lacks the arm strength to thrownthe 20 yard out. Keenum is good at throwing fly routes (and actually Ponder was decent at this as well), and other routes where he doesn’t have to put a zip on the ball. I’d say its great he knows this linitation, but he just tried throwing a 15 yard out to Rudolph that was almost returned for a TD when he threw it late and didnt see the safety.
Lastly I see a QB playing behind a top 10 offensive line, which is a far better unit than we had in 2015, throwing to WRs that are better than we had in 2015, and in an offensive system that is better designed for the QB instead of for the RB.
Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s. He will make 3-4 more of those a game, and those 3-4 are often the difference between winning and losing.
Case Keenum is a GREAT back up. I LOVE him as a back up. So glad he gas been here and hes a beautiful success story for Rick for getting him in here. But he wont beat Brees or Brady in the playoffs.
And Ill admit that Teddy might not either. Because Teddy usually gave us 2 or so WTF moments a week. But hes a better bet than Keenum.
I agree with what you said on almost all counts, i just worry Teddy is going to be far worse than Keenum in the immediate, and i dont think a player should lose his spot when they're winning and he's contributing to winning, and he's got the locker room behind him.
Why would Zimmer and Shurmer put him in if there was a chance Teddy would be far worse? The unspoken assumption about putting Teddy in is that what the coaches are seeing from him in practice is as good as what they're seeing from Case. If Teddy's looking really rusty in practice, then of course no Viking fan wants him in yet.
i would take it a step further and say if Teddy was looking the same or only marginally better in practice there wouldnt be an upside to moving him ahead of Case. I think Cases strong first half this week along with the current condition of the team regarding record and playoffs will make this a terribly difficult decision, and am glad that I dont have to make it.
i thinknthe reality is that Case is good for one half of good football a week. Against the Steelers and Lions it was none
agsinst the Redskins and Bucs it was the first,against the Packers it was quarters 1 and 3. against the Bears, Ravens, Browns it was the second half.
you just have to hold on during the rest of the game.
@"headhunt23" said:@"golfervike" said: "Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB. If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s.
First, I have already said I don’t really know what I’d do in this situation. I made a comment on another thread that I am reminded of the ‘98 season with the QB issue the Vikings have.You are saying that Keenum is not Brees, Brady, or Big Ben. I understand that. Few are. However, I don’t see where Teddy has shown he is one of those 3 either. He has had plenty of WTF moments. Some having to do with when he has been hesitant to chuck the ball up and let a WR make a play. All of those guys mentioned have, as has Keenum.
I’d love to see the Vikings have an elite QB. Thatis why I’d like to see Teddy and Keenum back next season with Sloter (everyone’s practice squad MVP) as well as a drafted QB.
I think both Teddy and Case bring an excitement to the huddle. I think you need that, I think the team needs to believe the QB can get the job done. I think they believe in Case and Teddy.
Great write up, HH...truly enjoyed it...
I definitely understand the folks looking at the QB metrics and drawing pretty reasonable conclusions about Case...
BUT, Case is like the guy rolling a hard 7 back to back to back to back to back...his production just isn't sustainable, much like our D performance wasn't sustainable at the start of 2016...He's been playing effective ball with a pop-gun arm and spotty accuracy...it's a bad combo...
Like I said three weeks ago, Case is approaching his expiration date...let him saddle up one more time while Teddy focuses this week and next prepping for the Lions...then turn over this QB friendly scheme Shurmur has devised to a true QB 1 caliber player...
@"BarrNone55" said: Great write up, HH...truly enjoyed it...I definitely understand the folks looking at the QB metrics and drawing pretty reasonable conclusions about Case...
BUT, Case is like the guy rolling a hard 7 back to back to back to back to back...his production just isn't sustainable, much like our D performance wasn't sustainable at the start of 2016...He's been playing effective ball with a pop-gun arm and spotty accuracy...it's a bad combo...
Like I said three weeks ago, Case is approaching his expiration date...let him saddle up one more time while Teddy focuses this week and next prepping for the Lions...then turn over this QB friendly scheme Shurmur has devised to a true QB 1 caliber player...
agree except the fact that we have to prepare for the Rams this week. You really can't divide the focus. Coaches, game plan, the rest of the offense have a job to do this week. And Teddy as backup would be part of that plan. It would be a distraction and not fair to the rest of the team.
IMO, a short week is not the time to make the switch. It happens now or after Detroit. But that is getting late IMO.
I could be wrong, but I believe typically prior to a short week there is some prep already occurring for the Thursday game...Give Teddy that work...the other benefit to starting Teddy Thursday is he gets more recovery time...
Good discussion, all. And civil, too. Love the initial post, but disagree in two respects. First, no one with half a brain was overlooking Atlanta in 1998. Overlook a 14-2 team in the NFC Championship game? With the Vikings pedigree? Do you KNOW how hard it is to go 14-2? Cautious optimism is the best any realistic fan could have mustered. Second, no way on earth Brad Johnson should have started over Cunningham against the Falcons. Cunningham was the best QB for that team (strip sack at the end of Q1 and underthrow of Moss in OT notwithstanding). But I agree with you on Case. While all QB's have "WTF" throws, Keenum has more than his share. His bad decisions have often come up golden. Why? Fate, luck, whatever... my eyes tell me Keenum is not taking this team to the Super Bowl.
Big chubbies for Case? Where? Not here, most of the posters here are shooting goo all over their Teddy posters every night.
As for 98 and whatever other history lessons people have been trotting out all week, they are irrelevant because this isn't history this is now and CK is not Randall C. who I would agree was a playoff choker and actually fumbled 3 times in that game, the late 1st half one clearly being the momentum shifter, but, in his defense the self-styled genius Billick had 1:17 to go in the half at our 18 yard line and called 3 straight passes with a 20-7 lead and Robert Smith in the backfield. The staff for that team were the real chokers, failing in the playoffs numerous times.
Anyway, that old shit has nothing to do with today or with CK, who is doing a good job and I can't imagine the outcome if he's yanked based on whim, sentiment, history "lessons" or who knows what. Big mistake imo.
@"Riphawkins" said:@"headhunt23" said:@"golfervike" said: "Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB. If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s.
First, I have already said I don’t really know what I’d do in this situation. I made a comment on another thread that I am reminded of the ‘98 season with the QB issue the Vikings have.You are saying that Keenum is not Brees, Brady, or Big Ben. I understand that. Few are. However, I don’t see where Teddy has shown he is one of those 3 either. He has had plenty of WTF moments. Some having to do with when he has been hesitant to chuck the ball up and let a WR make a play. All of those guys mentioned have, as has Keenum.
I’d love to see the Vikings have an elite QB. Thatis why I’d like to see Teddy and Keenum back next season with Sloter (everyone’s practice squad MVP) as well as a drafted QB.
I think both Teddy and Case bring an excitement to the huddle. I think you need that, I think the team needs to believe the QB can get the job done. I think they believe in Case and Teddy.
I'm not sure there is anyway they are both here next year, at least very little chance. If they stay with Chase this season it will be because he has continued to play well then even if they lose in the playoffs they'll almost be 'forced' to offer him a significant contract. In that situation I see the NFLPA trying to undo Teddy's tolled contract(if that is what it actually is so many conflicting reports). For this reason they need to get Teddy in sooner rather than later, the later we get the bigger the ramifications.I don't think there is any chance Teddy gets on the field if he isn't showing well in practice-Zimmer wouldn't look past that because of some man crush.
@"MaroonBells" said: Good post, Headhunt. I said the same thing about the Johnson/Cunningham debate way back then and I'm saying the same thing now. Don't be fooled by Keenum.
I don't think the coaches are going to be fooled by Keenum
@"Purpleblooded" said: Good discussion, all. And civil, too. Love the initial post, but disagree in two respects. First, no one with half a brain was overlooking Atlanta in 1998. Overlook a 14-2 team in the NFC Championship game? With the Vikings pedigree? Do you KNOW how hard it is to go 14-2? Cautious optimism is the best any realistic fan could have mustered. Second, no way on earth Brad Johnson should have started over Cunningham against the Falcons. Cunningham was the best QB for that team (strip sack at the end of Q1 and underthrow of Moss in OT notwithstanding). But I agree with you on Case. While all QB's have "WTF" throws, Keenum has more than his share. His bad decisions have often come up golden. Why? Fate, luck, whatever... my eyes tell me Keenum is not taking this team to the Super Bowl.
i probably should have said ATL flew under the radar that year. There was such a sense of invincibility about the Vikings. I dont think anyone disrespected ATL, but folks felt the Vikes just couldn’t lose - which was why they were like 9 point favorites in that game.
And we can agree to disagree in regards to whom the starting QB should have been. But that is the point of my post. Yeah, they wouldnt have set the scoring record with Johnson. But Johnson doesn’t lose those fumbles or throw the pick or keep trying to heave the ball deep to Moss which resulted in a 5-16 outing in the second half because he ignored his check downs and shorter options. He has longer drives and doesnt stress the Defense as much.
it would have been a gutsy move to have gone back to Johnson. And left Denny with lots of room for second guessing. But I do believe that Denny left it open for Johnson for so long explicitly because he knew who Randall was. (and Randall was who Denny thought he was). But the O performed at such a high level that Denny was put into a box.
And thats a box Zimmer would be wise to avoid.
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