Draft: If it's not a QB..?

@"kmillard" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"kmillard" said:

@"dadevike" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"dadevike" said: I feel like I want to respond to every QB post. And that's because Penix, Nix, and JJ all come with really significant questions.

Penix: older; injury concerns; not a very good athlete (injuries?); weird foot work and throwing motion (may be the same thing, so if you fix the feet he won't look so awkward); looked pedestrian and rattled vs. Michigan despite great receivers (who also had an off game); but a strong arm and great accuracy on deep throws; great competitor, does not take sacks; healthy the last 2 years.

Nix: older; he may be close-to-finished-product without much room left to develop; too many check downs or one-read-only plays; good but not great arm; but also very accurate; can make all (almost all?) throws; decisive; experienced and smart so not easily fooled; very good runner; maturity and seriousness - he is all business.

JJ: other than leading his team to a national championship, has not really done much (some sarcasm there); did what he was asked to do but unlike Penix and Nix, JJ never really carried his team; benefitted from a really good running game, O-line, and defense;  but he is all about the team and genuinely shares all credit; so young with plenty of room for growth (absolutely necessary); ran a pro-style offense with play action and was asked to read more than Penix or Nix (though debatable); best athlete of the 3; excellent arm and accurate on the run; deep ball accuracy is not at the level of Penix or Nix but again, he is young. 

So whom to select and do you take one at 11? 

It comes down to value, right? You're not going to take any of them if they're widely considered by NFL scouts to be 2nd round values. And right now those three are all over the map. 

The thing that always perks up my ears are the media scouts who have connections to actual NFL scouts. So mostly Bob McGinn, Daniel Jeremiah, Lance Zeirlein, Matt Miller and Dane Brugler. We haven't seen much of anything yet from DJ, Zierlein or McGinn. However, Miller has been quoted as saying "NFL scouts continue to tell me that McCarthy will be drafted earlier than expected." Miller has him 7th in his latest mock. Brugler also has him as a middle 1st round pick--and actually had him well above Jayden Daniels on a November big board.

And I thought this was interesting from Zierlein: "Why is Maye annointed QB2 by so many people? It's very curious for me based on just watching the last two years. I see the talent but man were there issues this year. Seems like draft media has convinced people 1 and 2 are locked in. I'm not sure if that is the case."

-Maye has the measurables: NFL QB-type body; NFL arm; very good athlete; can make tough throws; etc. But he did not impress this year. 
-Caleb has the wow plays; turns scrambles into TDs; and also a really good athlete. I wonder sometimes if he has a little prima donna in him. But he is my no. 1.
-Daniels killed defenses with his arm and his legs. Big plays everywhere - that WR group he had at LSU certainly helped. But he is a bit older and he does not have Anthony Richardson's (or Josh Allen's) body. If he exposes himself to NFL defenders like he did in college, his running days may be short lived. I have Daniels as my 2.

Assuming the Vikings were all in on getting Richardson (absolute freak athlete) last year, who is the closest one in this draft? Based n running ability, it would be Daniels. But based on body type, it's Maye. What's odd is that Will Levis was kinda like Richardson and the Vikings had no interest in him. 

I think it was just a bs story for the masses. they had what to trade up exactly? only two top 100 picks last year and this year. Unless Kwesi just thought that he could give up what the lions gave up to him the year before. Heard a smilar one about Bryce Young as well. that would be more like the vikings.

If they really needed a mold of clay with top attributes Levis was there at pick 23 and they passed.

God knows there is a pile of shit on the internet meant to steer abject morons away from the truth. In this case, there are three reputable, independent sources with very specific information who claimed the Vikings had put significant packages together to move up for a QB. It's pretty clear they tried to do something. 

It must be true then.

@"RS Express" said: If not QB, then I'm hoping for an edge.  JJ, Addison, and Hock at TE is a nice trio.  We don't need to use a 1 on a 3rd WR who'd really be the 4th option.  

@"Montana Tom" said:

@"RS Express" said: If not QB, then I'm hoping for an edge.  JJ, Addison, and Hock at TE is a nice trio.  We don't need to use a 1 on a 3rd WR who'd really be the 4th option.  

I actually liked how Brandon Powell showed up at WR and Johnny Mundt at TE when we needed help.  We'll need at least one solid backup to each of those leading skill position players. Question:  will Cam Akers be healthy enough to come back at RB?  He provided a spark before he went down.

@"kmillard" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"kmillard" said:

@"dadevike" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"dadevike" said: I feel like I want to respond to every QB post. And that's because Penix, Nix, and JJ all come with really significant questions.

Penix: older; injury concerns; not a very good athlete (injuries?); weird foot work and throwing motion (may be the same thing, so if you fix the feet he won't look so awkward); looked pedestrian and rattled vs. Michigan despite great receivers (who also had an off game); but a strong arm and great accuracy on deep throws; great competitor, does not take sacks; healthy the last 2 years.

Nix: older; he may be close-to-finished-product without much room left to develop; too many check downs or one-read-only plays; good but not great arm; but also very accurate; can make all (almost all?) throws; decisive; experienced and smart so not easily fooled; very good runner; maturity and seriousness - he is all business.

JJ: other than leading his team to a national championship, has not really done much (some sarcasm there); did what he was asked to do but unlike Penix and Nix, JJ never really carried his team; benefitted from a really good running game, O-line, and defense;  but he is all about the team and genuinely shares all credit; so young with plenty of room for growth (absolutely necessary); ran a pro-style offense with play action and was asked to read more than Penix or Nix (though debatable); best athlete of the 3; excellent arm and accurate on the run; deep ball accuracy is not at the level of Penix or Nix but again, he is young. 

So whom to select and do you take one at 11? 

It comes down to value, right? You're not going to take any of them if they're widely considered by NFL scouts to be 2nd round values. And right now those three are all over the map. 

The thing that always perks up my ears are the media scouts who have connections to actual NFL scouts. So mostly Bob McGinn, Daniel Jeremiah, Lance Zeirlein, Matt Miller and Dane Brugler. We haven't seen much of anything yet from DJ, Zierlein or McGinn. However, Miller has been quoted as saying "NFL scouts continue to tell me that McCarthy will be drafted earlier than expected." Miller has him 7th in his latest mock. Brugler also has him as a middle 1st round pick--and actually had him well above Jayden Daniels on a November big board.

And I thought this was interesting from Zierlein: "Why is Maye annointed QB2 by so many people? It's very curious for me based on just watching the last two years. I see the talent but man were there issues this year. Seems like draft media has convinced people 1 and 2 are locked in. I'm not sure if that is the case."

-Maye has the measurables: NFL QB-type body; NFL arm; very good athlete; can make tough throws; etc. But he did not impress this year. 
-Caleb has the wow plays; turns scrambles into TDs; and also a really good athlete. I wonder sometimes if he has a little prima donna in him. But he is my no. 1.
-Daniels killed defenses with his arm and his legs. Big plays everywhere - that WR group he had at LSU certainly helped. But he is a bit older and he does not have Anthony Richardson's (or Josh Allen's) body. If he exposes himself to NFL defenders like he did in college, his running days may be short lived. I have Daniels as my 2.

Assuming the Vikings were all in on getting Richardson (absolute freak athlete) last year, who is the closest one in this draft? Based n running ability, it would be Daniels. But based on body type, it's Maye. What's odd is that Will Levis was kinda like Richardson and the Vikings had no interest in him. 

I think it was just a bs story for the masses. they had what to trade up exactly? only two top 100 picks last year and this year. Unless Kwesi just thought that he could give up what the lions gave up to him the year before. Heard a smilar one about Bryce Young as well. that would be more like the vikings.

If they really needed a mold of clay with top attributes Levis was there at pick 23 and they passed.

God knows there is a pile of shit on the internet meant to steer abject morons away from the truth. In this case, there are three reputable, independent sources with very specific information who claimed the Vikings had put significant packages together to move up for a QB. It's pretty clear they tried to do something. 

Ok it must be true then asshole. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"kmillard" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"kmillard" said:

@"dadevike" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"dadevike" said: I feel like I want to respond to every QB post. And that's because Penix, Nix, and JJ all come with really significant questions.

Penix: older; injury concerns; not a very good athlete (injuries?); weird foot work and throwing motion (may be the same thing, so if you fix the feet he won't look so awkward); looked pedestrian and rattled vs. Michigan despite great receivers (who also had an off game); but a strong arm and great accuracy on deep throws; great competitor, does not take sacks; healthy the last 2 years.

Nix: older; he may be close-to-finished-product without much room left to develop; too many check downs or one-read-only plays; good but not great arm; but also very accurate; can make all (almost all?) throws; decisive; experienced and smart so not easily fooled; very good runner; maturity and seriousness - he is all business.

JJ: other than leading his team to a national championship, has not really done much (some sarcasm there); did what he was asked to do but unlike Penix and Nix, JJ never really carried his team; benefitted from a really good running game, O-line, and defense;  but he is all about the team and genuinely shares all credit; so young with plenty of room for growth (absolutely necessary); ran a pro-style offense with play action and was asked to read more than Penix or Nix (though debatable); best athlete of the 3; excellent arm and accurate on the run; deep ball accuracy is not at the level of Penix or Nix but again, he is young. 

So whom to select and do you take one at 11? 

It comes down to value, right? You're not going to take any of them if they're widely considered by NFL scouts to be 2nd round values. And right now those three are all over the map. 

The thing that always perks up my ears are the media scouts who have connections to actual NFL scouts. So mostly Bob McGinn, Daniel Jeremiah, Lance Zeirlein, Matt Miller and Dane Brugler. We haven't seen much of anything yet from DJ, Zierlein or McGinn. However, Miller has been quoted as saying "NFL scouts continue to tell me that McCarthy will be drafted earlier than expected." Miller has him 7th in his latest mock. Brugler also has him as a middle 1st round pick--and actually had him well above Jayden Daniels on a November big board.

And I thought this was interesting from Zierlein: "Why is Maye annointed QB2 by so many people? It's very curious for me based on just watching the last two years. I see the talent but man were there issues this year. Seems like draft media has convinced people 1 and 2 are locked in. I'm not sure if that is the case."

-Maye has the measurables: NFL QB-type body; NFL arm; very good athlete; can make tough throws; etc. But he did not impress this year. 
-Caleb has the wow plays; turns scrambles into TDs; and also a really good athlete. I wonder sometimes if he has a little prima donna in him. But he is my no. 1.
-Daniels killed defenses with his arm and his legs. Big plays everywhere - that WR group he had at LSU certainly helped. But he is a bit older and he does not have Anthony Richardson's (or Josh Allen's) body. If he exposes himself to NFL defenders like he did in college, his running days may be short lived. I have Daniels as my 2.

Assuming the Vikings were all in on getting Richardson (absolute freak athlete) last year, who is the closest one in this draft? Based n running ability, it would be Daniels. But based on body type, it's Maye. What's odd is that Will Levis was kinda like Richardson and the Vikings had no interest in him. 

I think it was just a bs story for the masses. they had what to trade up exactly? only two top 100 picks last year and this year. Unless Kwesi just thought that he could give up what the lions gave up to him the year before. Heard a smilar one about Bryce Young as well. that would be more like the vikings.

If they really needed a mold of clay with top attributes Levis was there at pick 23 and they passed.

God knows there is a pile of shit on the internet meant to steer abject morons away from the truth. In this case, there are three reputable, independent sources with very specific information who claimed the Vikings had put significant packages together to move up for a QB. It's pretty clear they tried to do something. 

Ok it must be true then asshole. 

I was agreeing with you that there is plenty of BS on the internet. But if you thought I was referring to you when I said "abject morons" I'm not going to argue with you. 

@"dadevike" said:

@"supafreak84" said: IMO (as of now), best case scenario for the Vikings in this draft is McCarthy dropping to our pick at #11 and sitting him behind Cousins for a year or two. Anything after that is gravy. 

If McCarthy is not there at 11, I would be shocked. Note: I have been shocked before. But 11 seems too high for JJ, whom I like. While there is a lot to like with JJ, he is something of a long shot. He has never been the focus of the offense at UM. But he did have to get them out of third and long on a regular basis and he did it without any stud receivers. To me he seems like a guy that you trade back 10-15 spots and if he is there you pull the trigger, and if he is gone, you move on to Plan B, C, D or whatever he represents for us. We're not in a good spot to draft the top QBs and too many teams ahead of us have a dire need at QB. But those are the hard facts.

@"Greylock" said:

@"dadevike" said:

@"supafreak84" said: IMO (as of now), best case scenario for the Vikings in this draft is McCarthy dropping to our pick at #11 and sitting him behind Cousins for a year or two. Anything after that is gravy. 

If McCarthy is not there at 11, I would be shocked. Note: I have been shocked before. But 11 seems too high for JJ, whom I like. While there is a lot to like with JJ, he is something of a long shot. He has never been the focus of the offense at UM. But he did have to get them out of third and long on a regular basis and he did it without any stud receivers. To me he seems like a guy that you trade back 10-15 spots and if he is there you pull the trigger, and if he is gone, you move on to Plan B, C, D or whatever he represents for us. We're not in a good spot to draft the top QBs and too many teams ahead of us have a dire need at QB. But those are the hard facts.

Its time to stop trading back 10-15 spots.  Moving to plan B, C, or D gets you guys like Kellen Mond or Drew Samia.  Time to stop the insanity, grow some balls and move up to get the quarterback you want if you can find a trading partner otherwise we will always be looking for that perfect quarterback to somehow drop to the Viking pick in some far off draft.

@"medaille" said:

@"Greylock" said:

@"dadevike" said:

@"supafreak84" said: IMO (as of now), best case scenario for the Vikings in this draft is McCarthy dropping to our pick at #11 and sitting him behind Cousins for a year or two. Anything after that is gravy. 

If McCarthy is not there at 11, I would be shocked. Note: I have been shocked before. But 11 seems too high for JJ, whom I like. While there is a lot to like with JJ, he is something of a long shot. He has never been the focus of the offense at UM. But he did have to get them out of third and long on a regular basis and he did it without any stud receivers. To me he seems like a guy that you trade back 10-15 spots and if he is there you pull the trigger, and if he is gone, you move on to Plan B, C, D or whatever he represents for us. We're not in a good spot to draft the top QBs and too many teams ahead of us have a dire need at QB. But those are the hard facts.

Its time to stop trading back 10-15 spots.  Moving to plan B, C, or D gets you guys like Kellen Mond or Drew Samia.  Time to stop the insanity, grow some balls and move up to get the quarterback you want if you can find a trading partner otherwise we will always be looking for that perfect quarterback to somehow drop to the Viking pick in some far off draft.

What if your plan A QB isn't on the market?  We're probably unlikely to be able to trade for any of the top 2-3 QBs no matter how much we offer.  The Bears aren't handing us a franchise QB, and other QB needy teams aren't giving us the one they need.  At best we're hoping that the 3rd or 4th highest drafted QB turns out to be the best one and that other teams just made some massive mistakes.  There is no plan that can be executed by having bigger balls.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"mgobluevikes" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Rumor season is here: a little buzz that Minnesota might be moving away from signing Cousins and instead trying to trade up to #3. 

That came from PA, and he typically has a pretty good sense for what the Vikings are thinking. 

FWIW, here's how I see it. The Vikings want to extend Cousins and will try to do so. They'd be morons if they didn't. And they're not morons. 

However, I think Kwesi has a financial vision for the future that Cousins won't fit if he wants top-of-market money, full guarantees or a long term. If that's the case, the Vikings will turn their attention to one of the top three QBs in the draft and try hard to move to #3 well before draft day. 

Without Cousins, you need day-one starter. No way in hell you start the season with Penix, JJM or Nix under center, but you can feasibly do it with Williams, Daniels or Maye. It's not ideal with no veteran to learn under, but QBs taken in the top 3 can and frequently do start early. 

Best case scenario: Vikings come to terms on a fair deal with Cousins AND move into top 3 for the QBOTF, who gets a year (or more) to develop, ala Jordan Love. Vikings are a Super Bowl contender in 2024 and have a succession plan in place at QB. 

Worst case scenario: Vikings can't agree with Cousins AND find no takers on a deal to move up. If that's the case, the Vikings are in big, big trouble, because that triggers all those ugly bridge scenarios involving Russell Wilson, Sam Darnold and the like. Ick. 

I don't agree with your best case scenario as I think moving from 11 to 3 will cost us up to 3 1st rd. picks. Too much for potential. I'm good with signing Kirk and sticking at 11 or trading back a couple slots and drafting the 3rd or 4th QB, and getting our 3rd rd. pick back.

Just depends on how the big the gap is between the top three QBs and the other three. I think the answer to that is different for everyone. 

@"StickyBun" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"Greylock" said:

@"dadevike" said:

@"supafreak84" said: IMO (as of now), best case scenario for the Vikings in this draft is McCarthy dropping to our pick at #11 and sitting him behind Cousins for a year or two. Anything after that is gravy. 

If McCarthy is not there at 11, I would be shocked. Note: I have been shocked before. But 11 seems too high for JJ, whom I like. While there is a lot to like with JJ, he is something of a long shot. He has never been the focus of the offense at UM. But he did have to get them out of third and long on a regular basis and he did it without any stud receivers. To me he seems like a guy that you trade back 10-15 spots and if he is there you pull the trigger, and if he is gone, you move on to Plan B, C, D or whatever he represents for us. We're not in a good spot to draft the top QBs and too many teams ahead of us have a dire need at QB. But those are the hard facts.

Its time to stop trading back 10-15 spots.  Moving to plan B, C, or D gets you guys like Kellen Mond or Drew Samia.  Time to stop the insanity, grow some balls and move up to get the quarterback you want if you can find a trading partner otherwise we will always be looking for that perfect quarterback to somehow drop to the Viking pick in some far off draft.

What if your plan A QB isn't on the market?  We're probably unlikely to be able to trade for any of the top 2-3 QBs no matter how much we offer.  The Bears aren't handing us a franchise QB, and other QB needy teams aren't giving us the one they need.  At best we're hoping that the 3rd or 4th highest drafted QB turns out to be the best one and that other teams just made some massive mistakes.  There is no plan that can be executed by having bigger balls.

Agreed, and the term 'bigger balls' is subjective anyway. Carolina had some 'big balls' and look where its going to get them. Same with Chicago and Fields. Some fan's thoughts of just moving up, regardless of cost or value, and somehow that means the organization cares more or is somehow going to automatically cure the ills is silly. And you need two to tango. 

@"Greylock" said:

@"dadevike" said:

@"supafreak84" said: IMO (as of now), best case scenario for the Vikings in this draft is McCarthy dropping to our pick at #11 and sitting him behind Cousins for a year or two. Anything after that is gravy. 

If McCarthy is not there at 11, I would be shocked. Note: I have been shocked before. But 11 seems too high for JJ, whom I like. While there is a lot to like with JJ, he is something of a long shot. He has never been the focus of the offense at UM. But he did have to get them out of third and long on a regular basis and he did it without any stud receivers. To me he seems like a guy that you trade back 10-15 spots and if he is there you pull the trigger, and if he is gone, you move on to Plan B, C, D or whatever he represents for us. We're not in a good spot to draft the top QBs and too many teams ahead of us have a dire need at QB. But those are the hard facts.

Its time to stop trading back 10-15 spots.  Moving to plan B, C, or D gets you guys like Kellen Mond or Drew Samia.  Time to stop the insanity, grow some balls and move up to get the quarterback you want if you can find a trading partner otherwise we will always be looking for that perfect quarterback to somehow drop to the Viking pick in some far off draft.