Interesting take on QB Zach Wilson from Alex Smith
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/former-pro-bowl-qb-says-jets-failed-zach-wilson-defensive-head-coaches-arent-built-to-develop-qbs/
Whether this is true or not, who knows....but I think we can all agree that it certainly happens where a great QB prospective goes to the wrong team/organization/coach and the table is set for that person to fail.
But I personally agree with Smith's statement here: "There is a different mentality, from my career, when you play for an offensive head coach that wants to light up the scoreboard and outscore the opponent," Smith said. "There's a different mentality you have, especially as a young quarterback versus a defensive head coach, when really the (coach's) mentality is 'Hey, don't screw up, don't turn the ball over, don't put us in a bad situation.' ... That's a huge difference in a mentality and a mindset for a young quarterback, especially if it's a bit rocky to start."
We saw that with Zimmer and Case Keenum. And Cousins to an extent. He loved Teddy because he was a game manager....although he's thrown 47 INTs against 75 TDs in his career, so although not horrible, not great either.
I think there's some truth to this. But let's not pretend that it would only take an offensive coach to fix Zach Wilson.
@"MaroonBells" said: I think there's some truth to this. But let's not pretend that it would only take an offensive coach to fix Zach Wilson.I don't think this is Smith's point, I think its more that the HC didn't help things. And lets face it: he'd know a lot more than any of us.
I think a strong mentor veteran QB, and a HC and OC that are confident in their job would do wonders for a lot of these young QB "busts".
Not everyone can make it in the league, and that includes lots of highly drafted guys. Everyone deserves to land in a great spot but guys who don't still make it on talent and determination.
And frankly it's kind of a thin argument. Saleh is a defensive guy but Wilson's being coached by the offensive guys on the staff not Saleh.
As for "lighting up the scoreboard", the kid couldn't complete 5 yard dump offs. Maybe Saleh could run onto the field and pat him on the head after each miss?
I watched a lot of Jets ball last year and he was utterly putrid, and it was not because 'Robert Saleh didn't want to score'. It's also not a good sign that his teammates hated him.
Aside: I have to confess that the Jets have been my AFC team since I was kid back when Broadway Joe was the man. It's debatable who's given me less to cheer about--them or the Vikings. But now I have to root for...Aaron Rodgers. I just threw up in my mouth. :#
@"JimmyinSD" said: I think a strong mentor veteran QB, and a HC and OC that are confident in their job would do wonders for a lot of these young QB "busts".
I am trying to recall recent times a franchise QB was mentored by a winning QB, Favre/Rodgers, Smith /Mahomes, Jackson/Wilson ;) . Not disagreeing with you just wondering what the current trend is.
I’m of the mindset that you really should just go all in on
offense right now and worry about the defense when you are good enough to have
a chance at something great. The league
is just set up for offense. Get an elite
offensive mind at HC that’s not going to disappear once you have some success. Get some blockers. Get enough WRs/TEs for your QB to flourish. Just set up everything to maximize your QBs
chance at becoming great. I think there was
a time where a defensive HC was fine, and minimizing TOs while shutting down
their offense was a strategy, but the league has outlawed defense. Your offense needs to be able to outscore
theirs.
That said, it’s easier said then done and a lot of these
teams are dumpster fires and ruin prospects, elite HC’s are just as hard to
find as elite QBs.
I didn't read the article so it may have been mentioned that his QB coach that he was working with before his rookie season died riding his bike. He really went to the wrong team for him which was obvious to most of us. I still think the kid has a shot under the right circumstances but not in a major market like NYC.
Wrong coach. Wrong market. That deer in the headlights look that Wilson had after the draft said it all to me. Here's a guy that was used to being the big fish in a small Mormon pond drafted to play for a fiery Defensive Coach in the largest and most aggressive media market in football. Wilson needs a KJO type coach (offensive guru, upbeat/supportive personality) and needs to play in a smaller market where he isn't on the big stage all the time. He had some issues with footwork and the like coming out of college but I think that's overshadowed now by issues with the team and market. I think he'll likely be ruined by the time he gets to the right situation as NYJ decide to move on.
@"comet52" said: Not everyone can make it in the league, and that includes lots of highly drafted guys. Everyone deserves to land in a great spot but guys who don't still make it on talent and determination.And frankly it's kind of a thin argument. Saleh is a defensive guy but Wilson's being coached by the offensive guys on the staff not Saleh.
As for "lighting up the scoreboard", the kid couldn't complete 5 yard dump offs. Maybe Saleh could run onto the field and pat him on the head after each miss?
I watched a lot of Jets ball last year and he was utterly putrid, and it was not because 'Robert Saleh didn't want to score'. It's also not a good sign that his teammates hated him.
Aside: I have to confess that the Jets have been my AFC team since I was kid back when Broadway Joe was the man. It's debatable who's given me less to cheer about--them or the Vikings. But now I have to root for...Aaron Rodgers. I just threw up in my mouth. :#
Agree. We have decades of evidence--QBs drafted high and low, by offensive teams and defensive teams, and QBs who go from one to the other and back again. I tend to think you can either play in the NFL or you can't. And no switch in a team's "style" is going to turn a bust into a star or vice versa.
The GOAT played for Belichick, who has proven to be nothing but a slightly above mediocre defensive coach before and since TB.
@"MaroonBells" said: I think there's some truth to this. But let's not pretend that it would only take an offensive coach to fix Zach Wilson.Or that offensive coordinator Shurmur wasn't the best thing that ever happened to Keenum.
@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think a strong mentor veteran QB, and a HC and OC that are confident in their job would do wonders for a lot of these young QB "busts".I am trying to recall recent times a franchise QB was mentored by a winning QB, Favre/Rodgers, Smith /Mahomes, Jackson/Wilson ;) . Not disagreeing with you just wondering what the current trend is.
when I say strong I dont mean only in wins, I am referring to a man that is confident and will be a good role model for the incoming kid, and a coach and GM that understand that just because a kid has an arm and some college success doesnt mean that they are ready for the pro game.... especially in markets like NY. In hindsight knowing what we have learned about Wilson, he really could have benefitted from a grounded veteran that could have shown him the ropes of the pro position and let him learn without the pressure of winning games. These are rarely mature adults when they are handed millions of dollars, and then the pressure of elevating a pro sports franchise on top....., working behind a good journeyman QB that has a stable adult life would be the best thing guys like Wilson and a few others.
@"comet52" said: Not everyone can make it in the league, and that includes lots of highly drafted guys. Everyone deserves to land in a great spot but guys who don't still make it on talent and determination.And frankly it's kind of a thin argument. Saleh is a defensive guy but Wilson's being coached by the offensive guys on the staff not Saleh.
As for "lighting up the scoreboard", the kid couldn't complete 5 yard dump offs. Maybe Saleh could run onto the field and pat him on the head after each miss?
I watched a lot of Jets ball last year and he was utterly putrid, and it was not because 'Robert Saleh didn't want to score'. It's also not a good sign that his teammates hated him.
Aside: I have to confess that the Jets have been my AFC team since I was kid back when Broadway Joe was the man. It's debatable who's given me less to cheer about--them or the Vikings. But now I have to root for...Aaron Rodgers. I just threw up in my mouth. :#
all these guys can make most of the throws or they wouldnt make the pros, them not hitting easy shit in the pros is no different than a pro golfer that suddenly cant putt, its largely mental and that can most definitely be affected by an asshole HC, especially if he is of the defensive mind. Wilson IMO needs to be shelved for a year or two behind somebody that isnt looking over their shoulder and knows their place, and is mature enough that he will be a solid role model, both on and off the field.
honestly if we were are to hang onto Cousins, the only reason that I would be in favor of that is if we were to make a real hard swing at a kid that has a lot of upside, but needs somebody to ground him.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think a strong mentor veteran QB, and a HC and OC that are confident in their job would do wonders for a lot of these young QB "busts".I am trying to recall recent times a franchise QB was mentored by a winning QB, Favre/Rodgers, Smith /Mahomes, Jackson/Wilson ;) . Not disagreeing with you just wondering what the current trend is.
when I say strong I dont mean only in wins, I am referring to a man that is confident and will be a good role model for the incoming kid, and a coach and GM that understand that just because a kid has an arm and some college success doesnt mean that they are ready for the pro game.... especially in markets like NY. In hindsight knowing what we have learned about Wilson, he really could have benefitted from a grounded veteran that could have shown him the ropes of the pro position and let him learn without the pressure of winning games. These are rarely mature adults when they are handed millions of dollars, and then the pressure of elevating a pro sports franchise on top....., working behind a good journeyman QB that has a stable adult life would be the best thing guys like Wilson and a few others.Okay, any recent examples of a mentor QB., I am having a hard time with thinking of many. Seems like they are coming in sinking or swimming. Love in GB, Lance/Garoppolo SF and "Red Rocket" Dalton/Fields Chicago are the last attempts I can up with.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"comet52" said: Not everyone can make it in the league, and that includes lots of highly drafted guys. Everyone deserves to land in a great spot but guys who don't still make it on talent and determination.And frankly it's kind of a thin argument. Saleh is a defensive guy but Wilson's being coached by the offensive guys on the staff not Saleh.
As for "lighting up the scoreboard", the kid couldn't complete 5 yard dump offs. Maybe Saleh could run onto the field and pat him on the head after each miss?
I watched a lot of Jets ball last year and he was utterly putrid, and it was not because 'Robert Saleh didn't want to score'. It's also not a good sign that his teammates hated him.
Aside: I have to confess that the Jets have been my AFC team since I was kid back when Broadway Joe was the man. It's debatable who's given me less to cheer about--them or the Vikings. But now I have to root for...Aaron Rodgers. I just threw up in my mouth. :#
all these guys can make most of the throws or they wouldnt make the pros, them not hitting easy shit in the pros is no different than a pro golfer that suddenly cant putt, its largely mental and that can most definitely be affected by an asshole HC, especially if he is of the defensive mind. Wilson IMO needs to be shelved for a year or two behind somebody that isnt looking over their shoulder and knows their place, and is mature enough that he will be a solid role model, both on and off the field.honestly if we were are to hang onto Cousins, the only reason that I would be in favor of that is if we were to make a real hard swing at a kid that has a lot of upside, but needs somebody to ground him.
Some guys just don't have what it takes. What they did in college doesn't matter. NFL (aka Not For Long) hopefuls don't have a lot of years to fiddle around trying to prove that their bad career starts didn't matter, although the "who you know effect" coupled with the need for bodies on the bottom of the roster/practice squad, does keep guys employed to the point where you sometimes are amazed. LaQuon Treadwell was still bouncing around various practice squads last year, for example.
@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think a strong mentor veteran QB, and a HC and OC that are confident in their job would do wonders for a lot of these young QB "busts".I am trying to recall recent times a franchise QB was mentored by a winning QB, Favre/Rodgers, Smith /Mahomes, Jackson/Wilson ;) . Not disagreeing with you just wondering what the current trend is.
when I say strong I dont mean only in wins, I am referring to a man that is confident and will be a good role model for the incoming kid, and a coach and GM that understand that just because a kid has an arm and some college success doesnt mean that they are ready for the pro game.... especially in markets like NY. In hindsight knowing what we have learned about Wilson, he really could have benefitted from a grounded veteran that could have shown him the ropes of the pro position and let him learn without the pressure of winning games. These are rarely mature adults when they are handed millions of dollars, and then the pressure of elevating a pro sports franchise on top....., working behind a good journeyman QB that has a stable adult life would be the best thing guys like Wilson and a few others.Okay, any recent examples of a mentor QB., I am having a hard time with thinking of many. Seems like they are coming in sinking or swimming. Love in GB, Lance/Garoppolo SF and "Red Rocket" Dalton/Fields Chicago are the last attempts I can up with.
No, not a lot of recent examples, and perhaps that's why we seem to have so many failures in the last 20 years or so despite the game being rigged to protect the QB and help the offense. I am just saying that we used to see better QB development when the dollars and stakes weren't so high. I think with the right ownership mentality and the right coaches that philosophy could still work for some of these prospects, not all, but we seem to see way more busts out there now than I recall from 25 years ago when teams weren't in such a damn hurry to push them into starting roles and to fire coaches for a down season or two.
@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think a strong mentor veteran QB, and a HC and OC that are confident in their job would do wonders for a lot of these young QB "busts".I am trying to recall recent times a franchise QB was mentored by a winning QB, Favre/Rodgers, Smith /Mahomes, Jackson/Wilson ;) . Not disagreeing with you just wondering what the current trend is.
when I say strong I dont mean only in wins, I am referring to a man that is confident and will be a good role model for the incoming kid, and a coach and GM that understand that just because a kid has an arm and some college success doesnt mean that they are ready for the pro game.... especially in markets like NY. In hindsight knowing what we have learned about Wilson, he really could have benefitted from a grounded veteran that could have shown him the ropes of the pro position and let him learn without the pressure of winning games. These are rarely mature adults when they are handed millions of dollars, and then the pressure of elevating a pro sports franchise on top....., working behind a good journeyman QB that has a stable adult life would be the best thing guys like Wilson and a few others.Okay, any recent examples of a mentor QB., I am having a hard time with thinking of many. Seems like they are coming in sinking or swimming. Love in GB, Lance/Garoppolo SF and "Red Rocket" Dalton/Fields Chicago are the last attempts I can up with.
Burrow didn't have anyone. Neither did Lawrence. But both were #1 overall picks. There was never really any doubt who would start.Jackson had Flacco. Mahomes had Alex Smith. I think there aren't many because there just aren't many good, veteran QBs or good young ones either. So the young ones are often mentored by a bridge instead of a vet.
Chargers, Steelers and Dolphins are good examples. I'm sure all three teams would've loved to have storied vets like Rivers and Ben mentor their young QBs, but the contract timing didn't work out. Chargers used Tyrod Taylor to mentor Herbert, Steelers brought in Trubisky for PIckett. Dolphins used Fitzpatrick for Tua.
I don't know if Love is going to workout for the Jeffrey Dahmer's favorite team, but that's the way it should be done.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think a strong mentor veteran QB, and a HC and OC that are confident in their job would do wonders for a lot of these young QB "busts".I am trying to recall recent times a franchise QB was mentored by a winning QB, Favre/Rodgers, Smith /Mahomes, Jackson/Wilson ;) . Not disagreeing with you just wondering what the current trend is.
when I say strong I dont mean only in wins, I am referring to a man that is confident and will be a good role model for the incoming kid, and a coach and GM that understand that just because a kid has an arm and some college success doesnt mean that they are ready for the pro game.... especially in markets like NY. In hindsight knowing what we have learned about Wilson, he really could have benefitted from a grounded veteran that could have shown him the ropes of the pro position and let him learn without the pressure of winning games. These are rarely mature adults when they are handed millions of dollars, and then the pressure of elevating a pro sports franchise on top....., working behind a good journeyman QB that has a stable adult life would be the best thing guys like Wilson and a few others.Okay, any recent examples of a mentor QB., I am having a hard time with thinking of many. Seems like they are coming in sinking or swimming. Love in GB, Lance/Garoppolo SF and "Red Rocket" Dalton/Fields Chicago are the last attempts I can up with.
Burrow didn't have anyone. Neither did Lawrence. But both were #1 overall picks. There was never really any doubt who would start.Jackson had Flacco. Mahomes had Alex Smith. I think there aren't many because there just aren't many good, veteran QBs or good young ones either. So the young ones are often mentored by a bridge instead of a vet.
Chargers, Steelers and Dolphins are good examples. I'm sure all three teams would've loved to have storied vets like Rivers and Ben mentor their young QBs, but the contract timing didn't work out. Chargers used Tyrod Taylor to mentor Herbert, Steelers brought in Trubisky for PIckett. Dolphins used Fitzpatrick for Tua.
I don't know if Love is going to workout for the Jeffrey Dahmer's favorite team, but that's the way it should be done.
that bridge QB can be that mentor, I am not talking about Young learning behind Montana or something crazy, just a veteran presence to keep the kid on the bench for a year, especially in places with crazy high expectations... luckily neither Jacksonville, or Ohio had lofty expectations for their rookies or were calling for heads to roll at every mis-step like the NY scene does.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"BigAl99" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think a strong mentor veteran QB, and a HC and OC that are confident in their job would do wonders for a lot of these young QB "busts".I am trying to recall recent times a franchise QB was mentored by a winning QB, Favre/Rodgers, Smith /Mahomes, Jackson/Wilson ;) . Not disagreeing with you just wondering what the current trend is.
when I say strong I dont mean only in wins, I am referring to a man that is confident and will be a good role model for the incoming kid, and a coach and GM that understand that just because a kid has an arm and some college success doesnt mean that they are ready for the pro game.... especially in markets like NY. In hindsight knowing what we have learned about Wilson, he really could have benefitted from a grounded veteran that could have shown him the ropes of the pro position and let him learn without the pressure of winning games. These are rarely mature adults when they are handed millions of dollars, and then the pressure of elevating a pro sports franchise on top....., working behind a good journeyman QB that has a stable adult life would be the best thing guys like Wilson and a few others.Okay, any recent examples of a mentor QB., I am having a hard time with thinking of many. Seems like they are coming in sinking or swimming. Love in GB, Lance/Garoppolo SF and "Red Rocket" Dalton/Fields Chicago are the last attempts I can up with.
Burrow didn't have anyone. Neither did Lawrence. But both were #1 overall picks. There was never really any doubt who would start.Jackson had Flacco. Mahomes had Alex Smith. I think there aren't many because there just aren't many good, veteran QBs or good young ones either. So the young ones are often mentored by a bridge instead of a vet.
Chargers, Steelers and Dolphins are good examples. I'm sure all three teams would've loved to have storied vets like Rivers and Ben mentor their young QBs, but the contract timing didn't work out. Chargers used Tyrod Taylor to mentor Herbert, Steelers brought in Trubisky for PIckett. Dolphins used Fitzpatrick for Tua.
I don't know if Love is going to workout for the Jeffrey Dahmer's favorite team, but that's the way it should be done.
Yes, I think that is the case, a bridge QB that just gives some time, not a teacher or role model. I was just questioning that, the idea of a role model/mentor QB transitioning to younger version is more a meme than an actual strategy in the current NFL.
Is there a breakdown between quality offensive coaches / good supporting cast and success rate of the young QB? It doesn't seem like a lot of QBs who are drafted onto shitty teams as the first building piece really succeed a lot.
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