Isn't that special?

Vikings wide receivers coach Keenan McCardell, who played for six teams in a 17-year career and has coached for three more, agrees that camaraderie matters on a football team.
Can he cite an example?
"In Tampa — 2002 Super Bowl team," McCardell said.
Ah, yes: the group that won Super Bowl XXXVII in Jon Gruden's first year as head coach — after making the playoffs four of the previous five years under Tony Dungy — with a defense that allowed 196 points all season and boasted a Hall of Fame defensive tackle (Warren Sapp), linebacker (Derrick Brooks) and safety (John Lynch).
Did those Buccaneers really need off-field bonding time to win a championship? Perhaps not. But McCardell believes it helped put them over the top.
"It's kind of funny: I knew I was coming to Tampa, and I knew we were going to win the Super Bowl in Tampa in 2002, because first off I knew those guys," he said. "We played golf together, and when I got there, it was basically a whole team meeting for me, on a visit. I was like, 'This is special. This is a special group of guys.'
"We took ownership, and we held each other accountable, and we loved each other, man. We made sure everybody was all right, and when you can do that and have a great locker room like that, like we have here — we have a great locker room. There are special things to come for this locker room if they just stay together."
It's a different approach from the one Vikings players saw under Zimmer, who canceled the Vikings' final minicamp practice in 2016 and 2021 but said, "We need to work, and we need to get better. You team build by winning," when asked about the idea of ending minicamp with teamwide events in 2015.
Springtime social outings might not lead to January playoff wins any more than a third minicamp practice could. The Vikings, though, are testing a hypothesis that they lacked connection more than talent.
During O'Connell's first offseason in Minnesota, the team spent some time trying to change that.
"Just look at each individual side of the ball: You can't talk about all these checks and tools that they have on defense if these guys don't communicate in a way that's real and authentic," O'Connell said. "And that's just the football side. It becomes a heck of a lot easier to hold that guy next to you accountable — or more importantly, hold yourself accountable — when you a feel a responsibility to those guys."

I guess I struggle with the idea that the players didn’t give
a shit enough under the old coach and that a different coach is going to
dramatically change things.  Also, the
Vikings defense had great communication in the first half of Zimmers tenure.  I’d put more money on Zimmers defense
struggling when all the high priced, veteran players got injured, and you have
no depth because we were all in on rewarding the guys that got you there and
couldn’t afford quality backups.  I have
no doubt that things were not good the last couple years, and am glad that
there’s a freshness in the air, but I’m guessing opinions change if at the end
of the year, we didn’t win a lot, and Kwesi axes half the veterans on the team
to build something more in his own vision.

Teambuilding, how could that not be good thing?

@"IDVikingfan" said: Teambuilding, how could that not be good thing?

@"medaille" said: I guess I struggle with the idea that the players didn’t give a shit enough under the old coach and that a different coach is going to dramatically change things.  Also, the Vikings defense had great communication in the first half of Zimmers tenure.  I’d put more money on Zimmers defense struggling when all the high priced, veteran players got injured, and you have no depth because we were all in on rewarding the guys that got you there and couldn’t afford quality backups.  I have no doubt that things were not good the last couple years, and am glad that there’s a freshness in the air, but I’m guessing opinions change if at the end of the year, we didn’t win a lot, and Kwesi axes half the veterans on the team to build something more in his own vision.

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said: I guess I struggle with the idea that the players didn’t give a shit enough under the old coach and that a different coach is going to dramatically change things.  Also, the Vikings defense had great communication in the first half of Zimmers tenure.  I’d put more money on Zimmers defense struggling when all the high priced, veteran players got injured, and you have no depth because we were all in on rewarding the guys that got you there and couldn’t afford quality backups.  I have no doubt that things were not good the last couple years, and am glad that there’s a freshness in the air, but I’m guessing opinions change if at the end of the year, we didn’t win a lot, and Kwesi axes half the veterans on the team to build something more in his own vision.

Yeah, the new guy is popular until he isn't.  Winning covers lots of ills.  And under Zimmer, there were many newly minted millionaires.

Things were so swell under Zimmer that it's now considered news that a head coach had a chat with his quarterback.  

@"StickyBun" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said: I guess I struggle with the idea that the players didn’t give a shit enough under the old coach and that a different coach is going to dramatically change things.  Also, the Vikings defense had great communication in the first half of Zimmers tenure.  I’d put more money on Zimmers defense struggling when all the high priced, veteran players got injured, and you have no depth because we were all in on rewarding the guys that got you there and couldn’t afford quality backups.  I have no doubt that things were not good the last couple years, and am glad that there’s a freshness in the air, but I’m guessing opinions change if at the end of the year, we didn’t win a lot, and Kwesi axes half the veterans on the team to build something more in his own vision.

Yeah, the new guy is popular until he isn't.  Winning covers lots of ills.  And under Zimmer, there were many newly minted millionaires.

lol, I'm not sure what this even means? 

@"medaille" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said: I guess I struggle with the idea that the players didn’t give a shit enough under the old coach and that a different coach is going to dramatically change things.  Also, the Vikings defense had great communication in the first half of Zimmers tenure.  I’d put more money on Zimmers defense struggling when all the high priced, veteran players got injured, and you have no depth because we were all in on rewarding the guys that got you there and couldn’t afford quality backups.  I have no doubt that things were not good the last couple years, and am glad that there’s a freshness in the air, but I’m guessing opinions change if at the end of the year, we didn’t win a lot, and Kwesi axes half the veterans on the team to build something more in his own vision.

Yeah, the new guy is popular until he isn't.  Winning covers lots of ills.  And under Zimmer, there were many newly minted millionaires.

lol, I'm not sure what this even means? 

For a while the story under the Spielman/Zimmer era was that
the Vikings were a team that players wanted to go to.  Zimmer was tough but fair and for players on the
defense, he was going to get the most out of you because he was one of the
brightest minds in the league.  The
Vikings had great locker room chemistry. 
Zimmer got the most out of a lot of players and they were rewarded with
big contracts earlier than a lot of other teams players.  The Vikings spent heavily to keep their
homegrown talent.

I know that’s not the narrative now, but that’s what the
narrative was not too long ago.  Now we’re
onto the narrative that all the blame goes to the people that aren’t here
anymore, and since everything was their fault that means we’re a shoe-in for
the SB, because everything still here is great. 
Which is fine marketing, until they have to actually play a game, and
the things they aren’t good at start to become obvious.  Hopefully, we’ll just be good at everything
and it won’t be an issue.

@"medaille" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said: I guess I struggle with the idea that the players didn’t give a shit enough under the old coach and that a different coach is going to dramatically change things.  Also, the Vikings defense had great communication in the first half of Zimmers tenure.  I’d put more money on Zimmers defense struggling when all the high priced, veteran players got injured, and you have no depth because we were all in on rewarding the guys that got you there and couldn’t afford quality backups.  I have no doubt that things were not good the last couple years, and am glad that there’s a freshness in the air, but I’m guessing opinions change if at the end of the year, we didn’t win a lot, and Kwesi axes half the veterans on the team to build something more in his own vision.

Yeah, the new guy is popular until he isn't.  Winning covers lots of ills.  And under Zimmer, there were many newly minted millionaires.

lol, I'm not sure what this even means? 

For a while the story under the Spielman/Zimmer era was that
the Vikings were a team that players wanted to go to.  Zimmer was tough but fair and for players on the
defense, he was going to get the most out of you because he was one of the
brightest minds in the league.  The
Vikings had great locker room chemistry. 
Zimmer got the most out of a lot of players and they were rewarded with
big contracts earlier than a lot of other teams players.  The Vikings spent heavily to keep their
homegrown talent.

I know that’s not the narrative now, but that’s what the
narrative was not too long ago.  Now we’re
onto the narrative that all the blame goes to the people that aren’t here
anymore, and since everything was their fault that means we’re a shoe-in for
the SB, because everything still here is great. 
Which is fine marketing, until they have to actually play a game, and
the things they aren’t good at start to become obvious.  Hopefully, we’ll just be good at everything
and it won’t be an issue.

@"minny65" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said: I guess I struggle with the idea that the players didn’t give a shit enough under the old coach and that a different coach is going to dramatically change things.  Also, the Vikings defense had great communication in the first half of Zimmers tenure.  I’d put more money on Zimmers defense struggling when all the high priced, veteran players got injured, and you have no depth because we were all in on rewarding the guys that got you there and couldn’t afford quality backups.  I have no doubt that things were not good the last couple years, and am glad that there’s a freshness in the air, but I’m guessing opinions change if at the end of the year, we didn’t win a lot, and Kwesi axes half the veterans on the team to build something more in his own vision.

Yeah, the new guy is popular until he isn't.  Winning covers lots of ills.  And under Zimmer, there were many newly minted millionaires.

lol, I'm not sure what this even means? 

For a while the story under the Spielman/Zimmer era was that
the Vikings were a team that players wanted to go to.  Zimmer was tough but fair and for players on the
defense, he was going to get the most out of you because he was one of the
brightest minds in the league.  The
Vikings had great locker room chemistry. 
Zimmer got the most out of a lot of players and they were rewarded with
big contracts earlier than a lot of other teams players.  The Vikings spent heavily to keep their
homegrown talent.

I know that’s not the narrative now, but that’s what the
narrative was not too long ago.  Now we’re
onto the narrative that all the blame goes to the people that aren’t here
anymore, and since everything was their fault that means we’re a shoe-in for
the SB, because everything still here is great. 
Which is fine marketing, until they have to actually play a game, and
the things they aren’t good at start to become obvious.  Hopefully, we’ll just be good at everything
and it won’t be an issue.

Yes that was the narrative under Zimmer as a DC guru and he fixed that immediately with the Vikings.  But as an overall HC of the whole team that never happened.  Then the last few years he wasn't even a defensive guru and literally became defensive when questioned and threw players under the bus....not a leader or HC material.  It took the Wilf's and most fans a few years to realize that his peak was 4 seasons ago.  Spelly's shipped was tied to him and it became so bad that they didn't even talk?, that is unacceptable for Spelly to tolerate that....he should have shit canned Zimmer years ago and I think if he did he would probably still be our GM but he did not make the right decision so he is also out of a job.  

The narrative now it typical of bringing in a new GM and HC.  I expect many hiccups because neither hire have a lot of experience.  Kwesi showed his inexperience with his first draft decision and not getting better value.  We will see a lot more hiccups from both him and KOC.  But so far it has been so/so IMO.  

The fact is Zimmer and Spielman started great.  I can recall the same statements about hiring coaches that were good teachers, ya-ya-ya.  Over time, partly as the league (and its rules) evolved, Spielman and Zimmer started to diverge.  Additionally, and this is on Zimmer, as good coaches left for better opportunities, Zimmer was unable to replace them with good (young) coaches.  Zimmer could bring in his friends and family but he was unable to poach good young coaches that would have brought in new ideas and be better able to relate to the players.  Zimmer also became horrible in developing young players overall and played to win meaningless games instead of giving young players a real taste of playing -- Zimmer became more interested in his personal coaching record than sustaining success by developing your players.  As soon as Zimmer stopped talking to each other, Spielman should have fired Zimmer (regardless of whose's fault).  Failure to do so, for that reason alone, Spielman needed to go. 

@"medaille" said:

@"minny65" said:

Yes that was the narrative under Zimmer as a DC guru and he fixed that immediately with the Vikings.  But as an overall HC of the whole team that never happened.  Then the last few years he wasn't even a defensive guru and literally became defensive when questioned and threw players under the bus....not a leader or HC material.  It took the Wilf's and most fans a few years to realize that his peak was 4 seasons ago.  Spelly's shipped was tied to him and it became so bad that they didn't even talk?, that is unacceptable for Spelly to tolerate that....he should have shit canned Zimmer years ago and I think if he did he would probably still be our GM but he did not make the right decision so he is also out of a job.  

The narrative now it typical of bringing in a new GM and HC.  I expect many hiccups because neither hire have a lot of experience.  Kwesi showed his inexperience with his first draft decision and not getting better value.  We will see a lot more hiccups from both him and KOC.  But so far it has been so/so IMO.  

Spielman wasn’t fired because of Zimmers bad attitude.  He was fired because the organization was a
mess that he created.  He had a defensive
coach that wanted to be a stifling defense with a ball control offense, and
when he did built the team in Zimmers mindset, Zimmer did well.  Players were mostly happy.  We were pretty much limited by our failures
on the OLine.  When the OLine was good we’d
be around 10-6 or 11-5.  When the OLine
was bad, we’d be closer to 8-8.  Then
Spielman switched to all in on the offense and neglected our defense.  He brought in an expensive, midlevel QB that
Zimmer didn’t want.  He spent a ton on
Diggs who immediately forced his way out. 
We spent a ton of draft capital on the OLine, often trying to replace
our only good OLine players with high draft picks but ignoring massive holes on
the interior.  The few defenders he drafted
busted.  Hughes was injured and never
really recovered.  Gladney was troubled from
the get go and seems like something we should have saw coming.  Dantzler is ok.  We haven’t drafted a DLine player in the top
3 rounds since Hunter in 2015 until we drafted Jones II in 2021.  The last two seasons we pretty much played without
a pass rush and without CBs, which guarantees your defense is going to be ineffective.

I think it’s not hard to imagine that Zimmer felt like his
coaching opportunity was being hamstrung by Spielman and that this would lead
to a toxic relationship.  Obviously, we
all own our own behavior, and Zimmer should have behaved better, but Spielman
spent the last 4 years making a non-cohesive mess and that’s on him.
I do agree that Spielman probably would still have had a
job, if either continued to build a Zimmer style team with Zimmer as the coach
or hired an offensive-minded coach that was more in agreement with the direction
he wanted to take the team.

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"minny65" said:

Yes that was the narrative under Zimmer as a DC guru and he fixed that immediately with the Vikings.  But as an overall HC of the whole team that never happened.  Then the last few years he wasn't even a defensive guru and literally became defensive when questioned and threw players under the bus....not a leader or HC material.  It took the Wilf's and most fans a few years to realize that his peak was 4 seasons ago.  Spelly's shipped was tied to him and it became so bad that they didn't even talk?, that is unacceptable for Spelly to tolerate that....he should have shit canned Zimmer years ago and I think if he did he would probably still be our GM but he did not make the right decision so he is also out of a job.  

The narrative now it typical of bringing in a new GM and HC.  I expect many hiccups because neither hire have a lot of experience.  Kwesi showed his inexperience with his first draft decision and not getting better value.  We will see a lot more hiccups from both him and KOC.  But so far it has been so/so IMO.  

Spielman wasn’t fired because of Zimmers bad attitude.  He was fired because the organization was a
mess that he created.  He had a defensive
coach that wanted to be a stifling defense with a ball control offense, and
when he did built the team in Zimmers mindset, Zimmer did well.  Players were mostly happy.  We were pretty much limited by our failures
on the OLine.  When the OLine was good we’d
be around 10-6 or 11-5.  When the OLine
was bad, we’d be closer to 8-8.  Then
Spielman switched to all in on the offense and neglected our defense.  He brought in an expensive, midlevel QB that
Zimmer didn’t want.  He spent a ton on
Diggs who immediately forced his way out. 
We spent a ton of draft capital on the OLine, often trying to replace
our only good OLine players with high draft picks but ignoring massive holes on
the interior.  The few defenders he drafted
busted.  Hughes was injured and never
really recovered.  Gladney was troubled from
the get go and seems like something we should have saw coming.  Dantzler is ok.  We haven’t drafted a DLine player in the top
3 rounds since Hunter in 2015 until we drafted Jones II in 2021.  The last two seasons we pretty much played without
a pass rush and without CBs, which guarantees your defense is going to be ineffective.

I think it’s not hard to imagine that Zimmer felt like his
coaching opportunity was being hamstrung by Spielman and that this would lead
to a toxic relationship.  Obviously, we
all own our own behavior, and Zimmer should have behaved better, but Spielman
spent the last 4 years making a non-cohesive mess and that’s on him.
I do agree that Spielman probably would still have had a
job, if either continued to build a Zimmer style team with Zimmer as the coach
or hired an offensive-minded coach that was more in agreement with the direction
he wanted to take the team.

This.  But I will add, the NFL favoring the offense doomed Zimmer as well.  His elaborate D wasn't as effective because the NFL wanted offense.  And any OC that was worth a damn got hired away.  That was the real problem with Zimmer, he wasn't an offensive mind and therefore couldn't keep any continuity on offense.

@"minny65" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

...

This.  But I will add, the NFL favoring the offense doomed Zimmer as well.  His elaborate D wasn't as effective because the NFL wanted offense.  And any OC that was worth a damn got hired away.  That was the real problem with Zimmer, he wasn't an offensive mind and therefore couldn't keep any continuity on offense.

Agree, he should have stayed as a DC but failed as a HC of a whole team including offense.  

@"minny65" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"minny65" said:

Yes that was the narrative under Zimmer as a DC guru and he fixed that immediately with the Vikings.  But as an overall HC of the whole team that never happened.  Then the last few years he wasn't even a defensive guru and literally became defensive when questioned and threw players under the bus....not a leader or HC material.  It took the Wilf's and most fans a few years to realize that his peak was 4 seasons ago.  Spelly's shipped was tied to him and it became so bad that they didn't even talk?, that is unacceptable for Spelly to tolerate that....he should have shit canned Zimmer years ago and I think if he did he would probably still be our GM but he did not make the right decision so he is also out of a job.  

The narrative now it typical of bringing in a new GM and HC.  I expect many hiccups because neither hire have a lot of experience.  Kwesi showed his inexperience with his first draft decision and not getting better value.  We will see a lot more hiccups from both him and KOC.  But so far it has been so/so IMO.  

Spielman wasn’t fired because of Zimmers bad attitude.  He was fired because the organization was a
mess that he created.  He had a defensive
coach that wanted to be a stifling defense with a ball control offense, and
when he did built the team in Zimmers mindset, Zimmer did well.  Players were mostly happy.  We were pretty much limited by our failures
on the OLine.  When the OLine was good we’d
be around 10-6 or 11-5.  When the OLine
was bad, we’d be closer to 8-8.  Then
Spielman switched to all in on the offense and neglected our defense.  He brought in an expensive, midlevel QB that
Zimmer didn’t want.  He spent a ton on
Diggs who immediately forced his way out. 
We spent a ton of draft capital on the OLine, often trying to replace
our only good OLine players with high draft picks but ignoring massive holes on
the interior.  The few defenders he drafted
busted.  Hughes was injured and never
really recovered.  Gladney was troubled from
the get go and seems like something we should have saw coming.  Dantzler is ok.  We haven’t drafted a DLine player in the top
3 rounds since Hunter in 2015 until we drafted Jones II in 2021.  The last two seasons we pretty much played without
a pass rush and without CBs, which guarantees your defense is going to be ineffective.

I think it’s not hard to imagine that Zimmer felt like his
coaching opportunity was being hamstrung by Spielman and that this would lead
to a toxic relationship.  Obviously, we
all own our own behavior, and Zimmer should have behaved better, but Spielman
spent the last 4 years making a non-cohesive mess and that’s on him.
I do agree that Spielman probably would still have had a
job, if either continued to build a Zimmer style team with Zimmer as the coach
or hired an offensive-minded coach that was more in agreement with the direction
he wanted to take the team.

This.  But I will add, the NFL favoring the offense doomed Zimmer as well.  His elaborate D wasn't as effective because the NFL wanted offense.  And any OC that was worth a damn got hired away.  That was the real problem with Zimmer, he wasn't an offensive mind and therefore couldn't keep any continuity on offense.

Agree, he should have stayed as a DC but failed as a HC of a whole team including offense.  

@"greediron" said:

@"minny65" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"minny65" said:

Yes that was the narrative under Zimmer as a DC guru and he fixed that immediately with the Vikings.  But as an overall HC of the whole team that never happened.  Then the last few years he wasn't even a defensive guru and literally became defensive when questioned and threw players under the bus....not a leader or HC material.  It took the Wilf's and most fans a few years to realize that his peak was 4 seasons ago.  Spelly's shipped was tied to him and it became so bad that they didn't even talk?, that is unacceptable for Spelly to tolerate that....he should have shit canned Zimmer years ago and I think if he did he would probably still be our GM but he did not make the right decision so he is also out of a job.  

The narrative now it typical of bringing in a new GM and HC.  I expect many hiccups because neither hire have a lot of experience.  Kwesi showed his inexperience with his first draft decision and not getting better value.  We will see a lot more hiccups from both him and KOC.  But so far it has been so/so IMO.  

Spielman wasn’t fired because of Zimmers bad attitude.  He was fired because the organization was a
mess that he created.  He had a defensive
coach that wanted to be a stifling defense with a ball control offense, and
when he did built the team in Zimmers mindset, Zimmer did well.  Players were mostly happy.  We were pretty much limited by our failures
on the OLine.  When the OLine was good we’d
be around 10-6 or 11-5.  When the OLine
was bad, we’d be closer to 8-8.  Then
Spielman switched to all in on the offense and neglected our defense.  He brought in an expensive, midlevel QB that
Zimmer didn’t want.  He spent a ton on
Diggs who immediately forced his way out. 
We spent a ton of draft capital on the OLine, often trying to replace
our only good OLine players with high draft picks but ignoring massive holes on
the interior.  The few defenders he drafted
busted.  Hughes was injured and never
really recovered.  Gladney was troubled from
the get go and seems like something we should have saw coming.  Dantzler is ok.  We haven’t drafted a DLine player in the top
3 rounds since Hunter in 2015 until we drafted Jones II in 2021.  The last two seasons we pretty much played without
a pass rush and without CBs, which guarantees your defense is going to be ineffective.

I think it’s not hard to imagine that Zimmer felt like his
coaching opportunity was being hamstrung by Spielman and that this would lead
to a toxic relationship.  Obviously, we
all own our own behavior, and Zimmer should have behaved better, but Spielman
spent the last 4 years making a non-cohesive mess and that’s on him.
I do agree that Spielman probably would still have had a
job, if either continued to build a Zimmer style team with Zimmer as the coach
or hired an offensive-minded coach that was more in agreement with the direction
he wanted to take the team.

This.  But I will add, the NFL favoring the offense doomed Zimmer as well.  His elaborate D wasn't as effective because the NFL wanted offense.  And any OC that was worth a damn got hired away.  That was the real problem with Zimmer, he wasn't an offensive mind and therefore couldn't keep any continuity on offense.

Agree, he should have stayed as a DC but failed as a HC of a whole team including offense.  

Considering the turnover at QB and OC, failed is a bit much.  As I said, his biggest failing is that he was a defensive guy when the league wanted offense.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"minny65" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"minny65" said:

Yes that was the narrative under Zimmer as a DC guru and he fixed that immediately with the Vikings.  But as an overall HC of the whole team that never happened.  Then the last few years he wasn't even a defensive guru and literally became defensive when questioned and threw players under the bus....not a leader or HC material.  It took the Wilf's and most fans a few years to realize that his peak was 4 seasons ago.  Spelly's shipped was tied to him and it became so bad that they didn't even talk?, that is unacceptable for Spelly to tolerate that....he should have shit canned Zimmer years ago and I think if he did he would probably still be our GM but he did not make the right decision so he is also out of a job.  

The narrative now it typical of bringing in a new GM and HC.  I expect many hiccups because neither hire have a lot of experience.  Kwesi showed his inexperience with his first draft decision and not getting better value.  We will see a lot more hiccups from both him and KOC.  But so far it has been so/so IMO.  

Spielman wasn’t fired because of Zimmers bad attitude.  He was fired because the organization was a
mess that he created.  He had a defensive
coach that wanted to be a stifling defense with a ball control offense, and
when he did built the team in Zimmers mindset, Zimmer did well.  Players were mostly happy.  We were pretty much limited by our failures
on the OLine.  When the OLine was good we’d
be around 10-6 or 11-5.  When the OLine
was bad, we’d be closer to 8-8.  Then
Spielman switched to all in on the offense and neglected our defense.  He brought in an expensive, midlevel QB that
Zimmer didn’t want.  He spent a ton on
Diggs who immediately forced his way out. 
We spent a ton of draft capital on the OLine, often trying to replace
our only good OLine players with high draft picks but ignoring massive holes on
the interior.  The few defenders he drafted
busted.  Hughes was injured and never
really recovered.  Gladney was troubled from
the get go and seems like something we should have saw coming.  Dantzler is ok.  We haven’t drafted a DLine player in the top
3 rounds since Hunter in 2015 until we drafted Jones II in 2021.  The last two seasons we pretty much played without
a pass rush and without CBs, which guarantees your defense is going to be ineffective.

I think it’s not hard to imagine that Zimmer felt like his
coaching opportunity was being hamstrung by Spielman and that this would lead
to a toxic relationship.  Obviously, we
all own our own behavior, and Zimmer should have behaved better, but Spielman
spent the last 4 years making a non-cohesive mess and that’s on him.
I do agree that Spielman probably would still have had a
job, if either continued to build a Zimmer style team with Zimmer as the coach
or hired an offensive-minded coach that was more in agreement with the direction
he wanted to take the team.

This.  But I will add, the NFL favoring the offense doomed Zimmer as well.  His elaborate D wasn't as effective because the NFL wanted offense.  And any OC that was worth a damn got hired away.  That was the real problem with Zimmer, he wasn't an offensive mind and therefore couldn't keep any continuity on offense.

Agree, he should have stayed as a DC but failed as a HC of a whole team including offense.  

Considering the turnover at QB and OC, failed is a bit much.  As I said, his biggest failing is that he was a defensive guy when the league wanted offense.

He is also an old hard ass when most modern players don't respond to that type of approach,  especially from a guy that doesn't have the successful resume like a belicheat.

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"minny65" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"minny65" said:

Yes that was the narrative under Zimmer as a DC guru and he fixed that immediately with the Vikings.  But as an overall HC of the whole team that never happened.  Then the last few years he wasn't even a defensive guru and literally became defensive when questioned and threw players under the bus....not a leader or HC material.  It took the Wilf's and most fans a few years to realize that his peak was 4 seasons ago.  Spelly's shipped was tied to him and it became so bad that they didn't even talk?, that is unacceptable for Spelly to tolerate that....he should have shit canned Zimmer years ago and I think if he did he would probably still be our GM but he did not make the right decision so he is also out of a job.  

The narrative now it typical of bringing in a new GM and HC.  I expect many hiccups because neither hire have a lot of experience.  Kwesi showed his inexperience with his first draft decision and not getting better value.  We will see a lot more hiccups from both him and KOC.  But so far it has been so/so IMO.  

Spielman wasn’t fired because of Zimmers bad attitude.  He was fired because the organization was a
mess that he created.  He had a defensive
coach that wanted to be a stifling defense with a ball control offense, and
when he did built the team in Zimmers mindset, Zimmer did well.  Players were mostly happy.  We were pretty much limited by our failures
on the OLine.  When the OLine was good we’d
be around 10-6 or 11-5.  When the OLine
was bad, we’d be closer to 8-8.  Then
Spielman switched to all in on the offense and neglected our defense.  He brought in an expensive, midlevel QB that
Zimmer didn’t want.  He spent a ton on
Diggs who immediately forced his way out. 
We spent a ton of draft capital on the OLine, often trying to replace
our only good OLine players with high draft picks but ignoring massive holes on
the interior.  The few defenders he drafted
busted.  Hughes was injured and never
really recovered.  Gladney was troubled from
the get go and seems like something we should have saw coming.  Dantzler is ok.  We haven’t drafted a DLine player in the top
3 rounds since Hunter in 2015 until we drafted Jones II in 2021.  The last two seasons we pretty much played without
a pass rush and without CBs, which guarantees your defense is going to be ineffective.

I think it’s not hard to imagine that Zimmer felt like his
coaching opportunity was being hamstrung by Spielman and that this would lead
to a toxic relationship.  Obviously, we
all own our own behavior, and Zimmer should have behaved better, but Spielman
spent the last 4 years making a non-cohesive mess and that’s on him.
I do agree that Spielman probably would still have had a
job, if either continued to build a Zimmer style team with Zimmer as the coach
or hired an offensive-minded coach that was more in agreement with the direction
he wanted to take the team.

This.  But I will add, the NFL favoring the offense doomed Zimmer as well.  His elaborate D wasn't as effective because the NFL wanted offense.  And any OC that was worth a damn got hired away.  That was the real problem with Zimmer, he wasn't an offensive mind and therefore couldn't keep any continuity on offense.

Agree, he should have stayed as a DC but failed as a HC of a whole team including offense.  

Considering the turnover at QB and OC, failed is a bit much.  As I said, his biggest failing is that he was a defensive guy when the league wanted offense.

He is also an old hard ass when most modern players don't respond to that type of approach,  especially from a guy that doesn't have the successful resume like a belicheat.

Players came back to play for him.  Many players said how much they respected him.

Seems many assume the modern players are a bunch of snowflakes and can't take coaching.  There may be some and they voiced their opinion.  But watching defensive players take less money to play for a defensive guru tells me more than a few malcontents taking shots once he has already left.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

Players came back to play for him.  Many players said how much they respected him.

Seems many assume the modern players are a bunch of snowflakes and can't take coaching.  There may be some and they voiced their opinion.  But watching defensive players take less money to play for a defensive guru tells me more than a few malcontents taking shots once he has already left.

Older players with few options and   star players making bank,   lets not pretend that free agency was paved by Zim.  I think the notion of players wanting to play for him was way overblown by a few fluff pieces about Sanders blowing him,, and Newman coming here at the end of his career.  I am sure that some players liked him,  but i am equally sure that the vast majority think he is a dick.  Maybe we could poll the special teamers and ask their opinions?