Miscellaneous Thoughts

My thoughts are, the changes were needed. Not sure I would have gone the same direction the Wilf's did after last year. But my hope was to get an innovator, hopefully 2 innovators in lock step with a new vision. The hall of fame for coaches consists of those who developed their own system. Bill Walsh, Don Coryell, Joe Gibbs, etc..
I'm probably asking too much, but I am on board with the new crew. We shall see how it goes. I expect a bit of a bumpy road, but an upward trend over all. They really just need an improvement in their defense, and I think we will see that. Hopefully it will be enough improvement to make them a competitor.

@"VikingOracle" said: My post-draft miscellaneous thoughts:

• Draft Trades:  There are a lot of draft trade charts.  I firmly believe that such charts are of limited utility year to year because some drafts are deeper than others and there are different tiers, etc.  This year, I repeatedly read that the draft had approximately 15 great players before there was a drop off.  Thus, to drop out of this top tier of players with a better chance to draft a potential superstar and not get a better return was disappointing.  Now, I understand Kwesis saw this as a deep draft with the next big drop off somewhere after the third round, so I can understand why he accumulate picks in this range.  However, I would love to see how the analytics look for drafting one Justin Jefferson versus an Ezra Cleveland and Cameron Dantzler.  I get that depth is necessary and the Vikings are top heavy, but let's hope the Vikings don't have another 12th overall draft pick for a few years.

• @ 12, we should have stayed and taken DT Jordan Davis

• @46 having "stayed", we should have taken Roger McCreary, CB Auburn.  Went 3 picks after Cine.  Not hard to imagine, had we took Davis...McCreary and/or Cine would have been available. 
• my pick here would have been George Pickens, WR, UGa. He was gone, but could have had Nakobe Dean, LB, UGA. 

Most importantly, we could have had a top 15 talent (DT Davis) and two huge talents, staying in our original draft slot, and NOT letting 2 divisional rivals get their coveted picks. 

I'll call it now, Kwesi's a BUST. 
When Philly DT Jordan Davis blows up Bradberry week 3....savvy told ya so.  :)

You might be right, Oracle. But I will say this: fans have never had more draft information available to them to dissect whatever it is they want to dissect. The judgements made right now mean next to nothing. Looking at a Draft retrospectively is the only way to evaluate one. Like savannah, I liked Jordan Davis. My opinion is the safety from Notre Dame might be a tad overrated. But to go from 12th to the end of round 1 with substandard comp was a decent sized fuck up in value. I also realize my layperson draft opinions really mean nothing more than a fan's two cents.

The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know. What generally makes for a winning organization is a franchise QB. At least consistently. I think there is talent on the team but it needs to translate into wins. Im surprised that fans are forgetting how many games the Vikings lost after blowing leads last year. I've never seen anything like it. That SHOULD mean the team, with some tweaks, can be pretty good. We'll see obviously. 

@"VikingOracle" said: My post-draft miscellaneous thoughts:

• Wilfs:  If the next couple of years are disappointing, I will blame the Wilfs above all others.  They clearly think the currently constructed team (with Cousins as QB, etc.) are close to being a SB contender and they hired a GM that shared that vision.  I don't think the Wilfs would have hired anyone who came in with a 5 year plan.  I hope they are right.

Agree, I will add that the Wilf's also relied on a senior executive team (like Bryz) to find our GM and dwindle the list to a few for our GM/HC.  It would seem to me at least that this collective thought thinks we are close.   I am on record (ha) of not agreeing with this at all.  I do not think this team construction is close to serious playoff contention and I felt that way before GM/HC/FA/draft and after.  It is almost like the Wilf's and the executive team blame Zimmer and Spelly for the team falling apart.  Yet, they think the roster just needs a tweak and a new HC will make us contenders.  I like the fact that KOC is an young offensive mind but he is a very raw hire (like Kwesi) for a team that thinks it is that close. 

I advocated for a rebuild which only takes maybe two seasons if done well.  I would have started that rebuild with finding a way to move on from KC.  I am convinced that he is a TOP 10 QB in all stats that is not a winner in most clutch situations.  His salary, lack of clutch, and leadership would have had me going in a different direction, but the Wilf's and executive team want to validate their decision to get Kirk and lead the team.  

Being an armchair fan I have to jump onboard but I really think it is the wrong direction.

• Draft Trades:  There are a lot of draft trade charts.  I firmly believe that such charts are of limited utility year to year because some drafts are deeper than others and there are different tiers, etc.  This year, I repeatedly read that the draft had approximately 15 great players before there was a drop off.  Thus, to drop out of this top tier of players with a better chance to draft a potential superstar and not get a better return was disappointing.  Now, I understand Kwesis saw this as a deep draft with the next big drop off somewhere after the third round, so I can understand why he accumulate picks in this range.  However, I would love to see how the analytics look for drafting one Justin Jefferson versus an Ezra Cleveland and Cameron Dantzler.  I get that depth is necessary and the Vikings are top heavy, but let's hope the Vikings don't have another 12th overall draft pick for a few years.

Agree, and I don't think Spelly would have been played like Kwesi was by the Lions (Spelly's Bro must be laughing but it is still the Lions).  After that poor trade down I did not mind anything else Kwesi did but again nothing that different than before.  

• PFF Mock Draft Generator:  I partly blame the PFF mock draft generator for my disappointment in the draft.  If you did a lot of PFF mock drafts for fun, you do learn a fair amount draft eligible players -- I enjoyed that.  But even if you did a few trades, it is very unlikely you arrived in a position to draft players that Kwesi ended up drafting.  Even with the trades, for every mock draft I did, I would usually be picking among the same group of players -- so I grew to know and like the same 20 or so players.  As I am not a college football fan, most of Kwesi's pick were very foreign to me.  I think that amplified my disappointment.

Everything you say is spot on for me as well - PFF mock about 5X a day - group of 20 - not a big college fan

• Keenan McCardell:  As the only returning coach, I consider McCardell to be truly roster tea leaves.  He is the only person who has participated in all the practices and coached in all the games still left with the team.  Therefore, I believe Kwesi and KOC had to lean on him to evaluate all the young offensive players who did not see the field last year.  As the Vikings did not draft a WR or TE until late, it makes me feel like McCardell had good things to say about ISM and Zach Davidson.  You might lump Mond into this also though the Vikings did sign Mannion.  On the other hand, Wyatt Davis got no love.  I would love for a reporter to ask Kwesi or KOC about what their prior organization thought about Mond, Davis, etc. 

Interesting observation about McCardell but it's not like he has been here very long either and maybe that is another reason the new crew kept him???

•  
• Offensive Line:  I recall reading a few years ago that the key for an above average Oline was continuity something the Vikings haven't had for years due to Spielman's use of re-treads.  This is one reason I don't have a problem with Bradbury starting this year.  I am looking forward to seeing how returning 4 out of 5 starters work out with new coaching.  The fact is, you can't have 22 all pros starting -- you have to find ways to make average players or even below average players work out within a team concept.  And that is why coaching and schemes are so important -- putting average (and below average) players in the position to play their best.

Yea, Let's see if an offensive minded HC can help the OL with his schemes, play calls etc.   Being a young former QB is the direct opposite of the old ornery Defensive minded Zimmer who the Wilf's should have canned a few years ago before it got to the silent treatment between him and Spelly.   

The @Vikings will be a playoff team this season

-they were 8-9 last season
-had 1 loss by double digits
-5 of those 9 losses were by a total of 13 points.
-new HC, much improved OL—if young secondary plays improved ball-very good football team.

— Dan Orlovsky (@danorlovsky7) May 18, 2022

@"VikingOracle" said: My post-draft miscellaneous thoughts:

•  On the other hand, Wyatt Davis got no love.  I would love for a reporter to ask Kwesi or KOC about what their prior organization thought about Mond, Davis, etc.  
• Offensive Line:  I recall reading a few years ago that the key for an above average Oline was continuity something the Vikings haven't had for years due to Spielman's use of re-treads.  This is one reason I don't have a problem with Bradbury starting this year.  I am looking forward to seeing how returning 4 out of 5 starters work out with new coaching.  The fact is, you can't have 22 all pros starting -- you have to find ways to make average players or even below average players work out within a team concept.  And that is why coaching and schemes are so important -- putting average (and below average) players in the position to play their best.

You can learn a lot by how the team addressed certain positions.

1. It seems the team believes Bradbury can improve given the right coaching and scheme.
2. They like KJO as WR3 and believe the depth behind ISJ is satisfactory.
3. They probably weren't as high on Bynum as maybe some fans were.
4. They like our DL starters and depth, but saw weakness at LB depth. 
5. They have zero confidence is Wyatt Davis. 

@"StickyBun" said: https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1526881122675744786

“Much improved OL” feels like a reach considering we have one new guy and he’s a rookie, but the rest of this sounds good. I do think the Vikings will be a playoff team, which would be impressive in the first season for a rookie head coach. 

Maybe it is my age, but reading things such as "Vikings will be a playoff team this year" and the team can be "pretty good" just doesn't do it for me anymore.  Throw in "Super Bowl competitor" and you got me.  I just don't think that can be applied to this team.

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

I think this team can be really competitive...but will win games they should of lost and  lose games they should of won...history repeating it's self for awhile.

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

@"StickyBun" said:

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

I mean, I hear you but its not like our 'closest rival' is a hot pile of dog shit. Aaron Rodgers is a 4 time NFL MVP. 6 NFCC games and they should have been to more. If you're going to compare the Vikings to the Green Bay Packers....if that's your measuring stick....you'll be dead, buried and tree fertilizer before the team could ever possibly catch up. 

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

I mean, I hear you but its not like our 'closest rival' is a hot pile of dog shit. Aaron Rodgers is a 4 time NFL MVP. 6 NFCC games and they should have been to more. If you're going to compare the Vikings to the Green Bay Packers....if that's your measuring stick....you'll be dead, buried and tree fertilizer before the team could ever possibly catch up. 

I don't know, who else should I compare them to?   Owner has a Super Bowl "vision" according to Baseball Guy Andrew Miller who he hired to run the team.   How are you achieving that vision?  By saying gee we sure might as well not bother catching up to the team we have to beat to have a shot at a title?    

This fanbase has grown a huge contingent of fans who will make any excuse for mediocrity and tell the rest of us to be content with it.  Just sad.

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

I mean, I hear you but its not like our 'closest rival' is a hot pile of dog shit. Aaron Rodgers is a 4 time NFL MVP. 6 NFCC games and they should have been to more. If you're going to compare the Vikings to the Green Bay Packers....if that's your measuring stick....you'll be dead, buried and tree fertilizer before the team could ever possibly catch up. 

I don't know, who else should I compare them to?   Owner has a Super Bowl "vision" according to Baseball Guy Andrew Miller who he hired to run the team.   How are you achieving that vision?  By saying gee we sure might as well not bother catching up to the team we have to beat to have a shot at a title?    

This fanbase has grown a huge contingent of fans who will make any excuse for mediocrity and tell the rest of us to be content with it.  Just sad.

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

@"AGRforever" said:

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

…….Ya think a HoF QB the entire time might have something to do with that?

@"pattersaur" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

…….Ya think a HoF QB the entire time might have something to do with that?

Probably… maybe the Vikings should try to get one?

The draft is a crapshoot. Ok. Brady, Wilson, Watson (?) were all available in the past few years. Vikings sat on their hands unfortunately. Hopefully they’re right about Kirk. 

@"AGRforever" said:

@"pattersaur" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

…….Ya think a HoF QB the entire time might have something to do with that?

Probably… maybe the Vikings should try to get one?

The draft is a crapshoot. Ok. Brady, Wilson, Watson (?) were all available in the past few years. Vikings sat on their hands unfortunately. Hopefully they’re right about Kirk. 

Brady was available to where he wanted to go.  Its not like there was a choice for teams in the matter. 

Wilson hasn't done much in a decade.  Whats to say he'll have it in Denver?
Watson LOL, the Browns can have the pervert who's record by the way is 2x as bad as Kirk's.
Kirk isn't perfect, but he can win a super bowl and he was available.  Had the D not shit the bed the last two years in a row who knows where we would have ended up?

@"pattersaur" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"pattersaur" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"comet52" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Wilfs are patient. Are they too patient? I don't know.

The team has a .520 winning % under 17 years of Wilf, while their rivals in Green Bay are at .627. The Vikings won the division 4 times during that period, Green Bay won it 9 times. The Vikings own a 3-6 playoff record with 2 NFCC appearances during that time while Green Bay is 12-11 with 6 NFCC's and a SB title.

When your closest rival routinely outdoes you then I guess you have to be patient.

…….Ya think a HoF QB the entire time might have something to do with that?

Probably… maybe the Vikings should try to get one?

The draft is a crapshoot. Ok. Brady, Wilson, Watson (?) were all available in the past few years. Vikings sat on their hands unfortunately. Hopefully they’re right about Kirk. 

Brady was available to where he wanted to go.  Its not like there was a choice for teams in the matter. 

Wilson hasn't done much in a decade.  Whats to say he'll have it in Denver?
Watson LOL, the Browns can have the pervert who's record by the way is 2x as bad as Kirk's.
Kirk isn't perfect, but he can win a super bowl and he was available.  Had the D not shit the bed the last two years in a row who knows where we would have ended up?

Fair, but there will always be reasons why it’s “not us”. My favorite season as a Vikings fan in the past 20 years is 2009. In large part because we had a HOF QB. I understand they aren’t growing on trees but finding one should be KAM’s goal every morning when he wakes up. In my opinion the Vikings have not shown nearly enough urgency in landing an elite QB. Maybe things will be different with the new regime. 

@"VikingOracle" said: Maybe it is my age, but reading things such as "Vikings will be a playoff team this year" and the team can be "pretty good" just doesn't do it for me anymore.  Throw in "Super Bowl competitor" and you got me.  I just don't think that can be applied to this team.

OK, they're a Super Bowl contender. Of course it can be applied to this team. Sure, we need a few things to happen, but so does every team. Every team needs key starters to stay healthy. Every team needs a handful of new additions to work out. But this notion that Super Bowl contenders are these powerhouses without weakness and league average players dotting their roster is just silly.

Bengals are 4-11-1. Burrough gets healthy and they add a receiver, Super Bowl. Tampa is 7-9. They add Brady, Super Bowl. Hunter gets healthy, add Z, a couple DBs and the five offensive linemen drafted in the 1st or 2nd round starts to gel, Super Bowl. It's actually more crazy to think they're not.

But then I've always believed that in the last 15 to 20 years, with the exception of maybe 8-12 teams, every team in the NFL is a contender.