OT: Says the guy worth $240 billion....

@"StickyBun" said: https://www.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-says-americans-trying-152047925.html

Ironic how he says the top-notch scientists and engineers aren't doing it for the money but because it is not boring and rewarding in the discovery process.  But then he forces the Chinese factory workers (and would with the American workforce if not for labor laws) to work 12 hours shifts of the same boring job 6 days a week and sleep over in the factory.  But hey, he does provide sleeping bags which is very considerate.  He sacrificed once and slept in the factory so he can relate :)

He is brilliant and clearly a Type A like many great minds have been.  But most of the time, these are horrible people to work with or for.  Steve Jobs was a first grade A-hole and the list is endless.  These Billionaire business "owners" can't understand why the "workers" aren't as motivated as them doing the same thing for 12 hours a day for the same compensation with no chance at a golden parachute, stock options etc :)

I find the analogy for some former NFL football players who try to be HC's.  Many, (mike singeltary comes to mind) just can't understand why the player can't play like they did.  The player must not understand his coaching or something....No they aren't as talented as you are and you have to coach to the best of their ability not what yours was.  

It is what it is. 
When you are desperate, you’ll submit yourself to worse working
conditions.  The 996 schedule isn’t a
musk thing, but a China thing and it’s one of the selling factors to
businessmen.  We have a lot of
regulations that have improved our standard of living (and also a lot of
regulations designed to suppress businesses). 
These drive up costs.  It’s
important for our government to impose the same standards on products that are
imported as are manufactured here.  If we
value a regulation enough to have it here, we should value it enough to have it
everywhere.  We need to have a system of
tariffs that level the playing fields between countries that care less about
their people and the earth as they import into countries that care more.

This is a governmental problem, not a single person
problem.  Obviously people shouldn’t
produce goods in these countries, but they’ve shown time and again that profits
are the driving factor, and we as a society need to remove the profit motive.

Secondarily, there’s a pretty big motivation difference
between an employee and owner in terms of how much they’re willing to work
because of how much is at stake.  The
issue has less to do with employees being less motivated, but more to do with
we need to make it much easier for people to become owners.  We’ve been put within an employee framework
through schooling, where we were trained to work for other people, and it’s hard
to see outside that box, but we need to work together to become owners of the
work and equipment that are in our daily life.

This is an old story, both my grandads entered the coal mines at 13, both had ruined lungs in their 40.  

Hard work is valuable and an issue of character. I personally think Musk is an exploiter in a similar vein as the early mine companies, and his comments imply if not confirm it. 

Its nauseating to hear talk about him sleeping on the floor, when he has 24/7 access to personal physicians, trainers, chefs. 

@"minny65" said:

@"StickyBun" said: https://www.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-says-americans-trying-152047925.html

Ironic how he says the top-notch scientists and engineers aren't doing it for the money but because it is not boring and rewarding in the discovery process.  But then he forces the Chinese factory workers (and would with the American workforce if not for labor laws) to work 12 hours shifts of the same boring job 6 days a week and sleep over in the factory.  But hey, he does provide sleeping bags which is very considerate.  He sacrificed once and slept in the factory so he can relate :)

@"medaille" said: It is what it is.  When you are desperate, you’ll submit yourself to worse working conditions.  The 996 schedule isn’t a musk thing, but a China thing and it’s one of the selling factors to businessmen.  We have a lot of regulations that have improved our standard of living (and also a lot of regulations designed to suppress businesses).  These drive up costs.  It’s important for our government to impose the same standards on products that are imported as are manufactured here.  If we value a regulation enough to have it here, we should value it enough to have it everywhere.  We need to have a system of tariffs that level the playing fields between countries that care less about their people and the earth as they import into countries that care more.

This is a governmental problem, not a single person
problem.  Obviously people shouldn’t
produce goods in these countries, but they’ve shown time and again that profits
are the driving factor, and we as a society need to remove the profit motive.

Secondarily, there’s a pretty big motivation difference
between an employee and owner in terms of how much they’re willing to work
because of how much is at stake.  The
issue has less to do with employees being less motivated, but more to do with
we need to make it much easier for people to become owners.  We’ve been put within an employee framework
through schooling, where we were trained to work for other people, and it’s hard
to see outside that box, but we need to work together to become owners of the
work and equipment that are in our daily life.

That is all true but it has also been talked about for the last 40 years since Buy American.  Then all the American companies moved oversees for cheap labor, lower taxes, and less worker protections all for the investors (ha!).   You mention remove the profit motive but again how...we are an uber capitalistic economy where big business/corporations literally own our government officials.  The trend in this country is more advantages for Corporate not less.  The small business people think they are part of this pro corporate/capitalistic band of brothers and the corporate world only cares about 1 thing - making more money at all cost because the faceless investor demands it.  Greed is part of human nature and any unchecked economic system is bound to swing wealth to the very few.  The workers and small business owners be damned.  Elon wants American workers to be like the Chinese workers again cheap labor, no protections, long hours etc...talk about a step back into the 1900's before regulations and unions.

Lastly, not everyone is capable or should be an owner.  

(Disclaimer - I love my Tesla but that doesn't mean I agree with everything Musk says and does:)  He is a great mind but I would never want to work with him, he is a douchebag.  

Chinese companies are subsidized by their government. They don't care about margins that much, just output volume. Their answer for everything when you work with them is for the American company to lower the price. Easy to say when the Chinese company can be making 4% margin on product X, but then the government chips in another 15-17% to their gross margins. Doesn't work like that here. Chinese workers don't like working long hours, either....but its either that or lose their jobs. Chinese work salaries are increasing however, so they even further incentive to work like animals. Musk knows all this and its why what he says in this article is such a load of bullshit. 

Hey Elon,

This is one of his children's names X Æ A-Xii.

Musk stated that A-12 stands for Archangel 12, the name of one of his planes. So the name X Æ A-12 is pronounced as "X-Ash-A-Twelve

Good for Elon. I am glad that there is an elite to punch the Gates' and Fauci's of the world. 

@"Canthony" said: Good for Elon. I am glad that there is an elite to punch the Gates' and Fauci's of the world. 

Kinda funny watching all the tesla's drive by sporting the "F* Elon" bumper stickers.

Seeing people suddenly hate Elon is like watching people say they follow the narrative without them saying they follow the narrative.

@"greediron" said: Seeing people suddenly hate Elon is like watching people say they follow the narrative without them saying they follow the narrative.

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's sick. 

Don't see much hating, but he's tone deaf as fuck in this instance. I'm fine with Musk....just not in this instance. 

I do get a kick out of the Dr. Fauci hate.....now that is funny.

@"StickyBun" said: Don't see much hating, but he's tone deaf as fuck in this instance. I'm fine with Musk....just not in this instance. 

I do get a kick out of the Dr. Fauci hate.....now that is funny.

haha, why would anyone hate that lovable little hypocritical tyrant? 

Just as a note, I didn't read the OP, cuz I don't really care what Musk does other than when it pisses off the left, I find that funny.  Since he is a liberal.

@"greediron" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Don't see much hating, but he's tone deaf as fuck in this instance. I'm fine with Musk....just not in this instance. 

I do get a kick out of the Dr. Fauci hate.....now that is funny.

haha, why would anyone hate that lovable little hypocritical tyrant? 

Just as a note, I didn't read the OP, cuz I don't really care what Musk does other than when it pisses off the left, I find that funny.  Since he is a liberal.

@"minny65" said:

@"medaille" said: It is what it is.  When you are desperate, you’ll submit yourself to worse working conditions.  The 996 schedule isn’t a musk thing, but a China thing and it’s one of the selling factors to businessmen.  We have a lot of regulations that have improved our standard of living (and also a lot of regulations designed to suppress businesses).  These drive up costs.  It’s important for our government to impose the same standards on products that are imported as are manufactured here.  If we value a regulation enough to have it here, we should value it enough to have it everywhere.  We need to have a system of tariffs that level the playing fields between countries that care less about their people and the earth as they import into countries that care more.

This is a governmental problem, not a single person
problem.  Obviously people shouldn’t
produce goods in these countries, but they’ve shown time and again that profits
are the driving factor, and we as a society need to remove the profit motive.

Secondarily, there’s a pretty big motivation difference
between an employee and owner in terms of how much they’re willing to work
because of how much is at stake.  The
issue has less to do with employees being less motivated, but more to do with
we need to make it much easier for people to become owners.  We’ve been put within an employee framework
through schooling, where we were trained to work for other people, and it’s hard
to see outside that box, but we need to work together to become owners of the
work and equipment that are in our daily life.

That is all true but it has also been talked about for the last 40 years since Buy American.  Then all the American companies moved oversees for cheap labor, lower taxes, and less worker protections all for the investors (ha!).   You mention remove the profit motive but again how...we are an uber capitalistic economy where big business/corporations literally own our government officials.  The trend in this country is more advantages for Corporate not less.  The small business people think they are part of this pro corporate/capitalistic band of brothers and the corporate world only cares about 1 thing - making more money at all cost because the faceless investor demands it.  Greed is part of human nature and any unchecked economic system is bound to swing wealth to the very few.  The workers and small business owners be damned.  Elon wants American workers to be like the Chinese workers again cheap labor, no protections, long hours etc...talk about a step back into the 1900's before regulations and unions.

Lastly, not everyone is capable or should be an owner.  

(Disclaimer - I love my Tesla but that doesn't mean I agree with everything Musk says and does:)  He is a great mind but I would never want to work with him, he is a douchebag.  

@"StickyBun" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Don't see much hating, but he's tone deaf as fuck in this instance. I'm fine with Musk....just not in this instance. 

I do get a kick out of the Dr. Fauci hate.....now that is funny.

haha, why would anyone hate that lovable little hypocritical tyrant? 

Just as a note, I didn't read the OP, cuz I don't really care what Musk does other than when it pisses off the left, I find that funny.  Since he is a liberal.

Yeah, can tell you didn't read it. It wasn't a political post. 

The Left. The Right. lol, its all so ridiculous. 

He wants a labor force he can control and doesn't want protections for. Look at China and the lack of freedom. There is a philosophy that is not supposed to be allowed since 2021 but is still occurring. It is called 996. It means working from 9am-9pm 6 days a week. Is this something that could or should be adopted in the United States? I would say no, others may disagree. Calling workers lazy is not at all helpful. China has had high suicide rates due to toxic work culture. 

https://fortune.com/2022/05/10/elon-musk-tesla-shanghai-plant-workers-sleeping-on-site-working-12-hour-shifts-six-days-a-week/

@"medaille" said:

@"minny65" said:

@"medaille" said: It is what it is.  When you are desperate, you’ll submit yourself to worse working conditions.  The 996 schedule isn’t a musk thing, but a China thing and it’s one of the selling factors to businessmen.  We have a lot of regulations that have improved our standard of living (and also a lot of regulations designed to suppress businesses).  These drive up costs.  It’s important for our government to impose the same standards on products that are imported as are manufactured here.  If we value a regulation enough to have it here, we should value it enough to have it everywhere.  We need to have a system of tariffs that level the playing fields between countries that care less about their people and the earth as they import into countries that care more.

This is a governmental problem, not a single person
problem.  Obviously people shouldn’t
produce goods in these countries, but they’ve shown time and again that profits
are the driving factor, and we as a society need to remove the profit motive.

Secondarily, there’s a pretty big motivation difference
between an employee and owner in terms of how much they’re willing to work
because of how much is at stake.  The
issue has less to do with employees being less motivated, but more to do with
we need to make it much easier for people to become owners.  We’ve been put within an employee framework
through schooling, where we were trained to work for other people, and it’s hard
to see outside that box, but we need to work together to become owners of the
work and equipment that are in our daily life.

That is all true but it has also been talked about for the last 40 years since Buy American.  Then all the American companies moved oversees for cheap labor, lower taxes, and less worker protections all for the investors (ha!).   You mention remove the profit motive but again how...we are an uber capitalistic economy where big business/corporations literally own our government officials.  The trend in this country is more advantages for Corporate not less.  The small business people think they are part of this pro corporate/capitalistic band of brothers and the corporate world only cares about 1 thing - making more money at all cost because the faceless investor demands it.  Greed is part of human nature and any unchecked economic system is bound to swing wealth to the very few.  The workers and small business owners be damned.  Elon wants American workers to be like the Chinese workers again cheap labor, no protections, long hours etc...talk about a step back into the 1900's before regulations and unions.

Lastly, not everyone is capable or should be an owner.  

(Disclaimer - I love my Tesla but that doesn't mean I agree with everything Musk says and does:)  He is a great mind but I would never want to work with him, he is a douchebag.  

Firstly, when I said we need to make it much easier for
people to become owners, I think it’s important to make a distinction in two different
definitions of the word owner.  The first
is that of someone who owns capital and profits off capital rather than labor.  The second is more of the entrepreneur definition,
where someone is owning the performance of a company and trying to force it
into success.  I think we need to
encourage both of those definitions.  We
need to encourage more people to start companies, because it’s important to
have adequate competition in the market such that no one company gets too big
and becomes a monopoly and can force it’s will on us, but we also need to start
increasing ownership of companies throughout the income levels.  We’re running into a situation where automation
is going to make labor increasingly extinct, and we need to ensure that we own
the means of production, rather than the Musks, Bezos, Gates of the world, who
we then beg for welfare from.

Obviously, our government and our corporations are controlled
by the same small group of people, and there will probably always be a subset
of the population that wants to gain power by placing themselves at key spots
in these organizations.  It is the rest
of our jobs to keep them in check, and for the most part, we’ve been neglectful
of those duties.  We’ll have to first
start to regain control over these institutions wherever we can until we start
to gain a critical mass.  I think it
starts with just continually voting out all the career politicians and
politicians that don’t serve the people. 
Then we’ll increase it by creating or reinvigorating frameworks for holding
people in power accountable for when they violate our trust, whether it be corrupt
cops or corrupt judges, etc.  On the
business side of things, we need to start preferring businesses that act more
like cooperatives.