Choose one or trade back?

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: What do we get for trading back?  How far do we have  to drop?

I still think i grab Hamilton at 12 if he's there unless we can stay in the top 25 and pick up an extra first next year.  I dont give up a chance at Hamilton or a couple of those other names for an extra day 2 pick.

I think if the Vikings knew they could still get McDuffie and trade down, they'd do it. But that's the risky part. And like you say, for what and how far down?
I'm reading that teams have real concern about Hamilton's lack of speed. 

1 week from the draft... I am hearing a lot of shit being floated about almost every player.  I am guessing that Hamilton buzz is coming from teams hoping he will drop to them so they can get a shot at him.  kind of like mcduffie's height,  and a lot of the other arbitrary stuff that comes out....  for me its this,  Hamilton was a stud, even against high level talent,  his foot speed wasnt an issue.  I grab him and dont look back.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: What do we get for trading back?  How far do we have  to drop?

I still think i grab Hamilton at 12 if he's there unless we can stay in the top 25 and pick up an extra first next year.  I dont give up a chance at Hamilton or a couple of those other names for an extra day 2 pick.

I think if the Vikings knew they could still get McDuffie and trade down, they'd do it. But that's the risky part. And like you say, for what and how far down?
I'm reading that teams have real concern about Hamilton's lack of speed. 

1 week from the draft... I am hearing a lot of shit being floated about almost every player.  I am guessing that Hamilton buzz is coming from teams hoping he will drop to them so they can get a shot at him.  kind of like mcduffie's height,  and a lot of the other arbitrary stuff that comes out....  for me its this,  Hamilton was a stud, even against high level talent,  his foot speed wasnt an issue.  I grab him and dont look back.

That and the fact that safety is not a premium position. Either way, I'd love to have him.

FWIW, it's not McDuffie's height. 1/4-inch under 5-11 is plenty tall enough. It's his arm length that has everyone in a tizzy. Because there's precisely the diameter of a penny difference between his arm length and Derek Stingley's. What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: What do we get for trading back?  How far do we have  to drop?

I still think i grab Hamilton at 12 if he's there unless we can stay in the top 25 and pick up an extra first next year.  I dont give up a chance at Hamilton or a couple of those other names for an extra day 2 pick.

I think if the Vikings knew they could still get McDuffie and trade down, they'd do it. But that's the risky part. And like you say, for what and how far down?
I'm reading that teams have real concern about Hamilton's lack of speed. 

1 week from the draft... I am hearing a lot of shit being floated about almost every player.  I am guessing that Hamilton buzz is coming from teams hoping he will drop to them so they can get a shot at him.  kind of like mcduffie's height,  and a lot of the other arbitrary stuff that comes out....  for me its this,  Hamilton was a stud, even against high level talent,  his foot speed wasnt an issue.  I grab him and dont look back.

That and the fact that safety is not a premium position. Either way, I'd love to have him.

FWIW, it's not McDuffie's height. 1/4-inch under 5-11 is plenty tall enough. It's his arm length that has everyone in a tizzy. Because there's precisely the diameter of a penny difference between his arm length and Derek Stingley's. What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke. 

@"StickyBun" said: This seems to be the group that will be available for the Vikings when they pick 12th. You happy to stay and select one of these guys?

Devin Lloyd, LB, Utah
Trent McDuffie, CB, Washington 
Kyle Hamilton, S, Notre Dame
Nakobe Dean, LB, Georgia
Tyler Linderbaum, OC, Iowa
David Ojabo, EDGE, Michigan
Jordan Davis, DL, Georgia
Andrew Booth, CB, Clemson
Kenyon Green, OG, Texas A&M
Jermaine Johnson, EDGE, Florida State

If Minnesota decides to trade down but still wants a safety, what about this guy?

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/dax-hill/32004849-4c16-4994-7b99-e93ebbf2d838

Lloyd- will be a difference maker
Zion Johnson- Love his build, feet and smarts

These positions are not sexy picks but if we added a 2 and one of those players, Im in 

I don't think the Vikings will trade up at all and will let the board shake out and come to them since they are going to have some excellent options with the 12th pick. I would be hugely disappointed if they took McDuffie at 12. If they traded out of the top 20 and ended up with him, fine, but to take him at 12 over some other players that will be available would be a huge mistake IMO. I think it's going to come down to Kyle Hamilton, Garrett Wilson, or Jameson Williams if they sit tight and make a selection at 12. Outside chance at Jordan Davis, but those three I mentioned would be my betting favorites. 

@"Hawkvike25" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: What do we get for trading back?  How far do we have  to drop?

I still think i grab Hamilton at 12 if he's there unless we can stay in the top 25 and pick up an extra first next year.  I dont give up a chance at Hamilton or a couple of those other names for an extra day 2 pick.

I think if the Vikings knew they could still get McDuffie and trade down, they'd do it. But that's the risky part. And like you say, for what and how far down?
I'm reading that teams have real concern about Hamilton's lack of speed. 

1 week from the draft... I am hearing a lot of shit being floated about almost every player.  I am guessing that Hamilton buzz is coming from teams hoping he will drop to them so they can get a shot at him.  kind of like mcduffie's height,  and a lot of the other arbitrary stuff that comes out....  for me its this,  Hamilton was a stud, even against high level talent,  his foot speed wasnt an issue.  I grab him and dont look back.

That and the fact that safety is not a premium position. Either way, I'd love to have him.

FWIW, it's not McDuffie's height. 1/4-inch under 5-11 is plenty tall enough. It's his arm length that has everyone in a tizzy. Because there's precisely the diameter of a penny difference between his arm length and Derek Stingley's. What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke. 

What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke.  - Come on, MB, you're leaving out a crucial piece which is the recent history of outside CB's with arms under 30". People here like him, myself included, but there's a reason NFL teams have minimum thresholds on measurables like that. History tends to repeat itself so it's more likely that his a slot guy based on the arm length. He could be a solid outside guy too, but history in the last 6-7 years says otherwise.

I'm sure some teams say "We wont draft a WR that high when he runs a 4.61 forty, but we will draft the player who runs a 4.56 forty". It's not much different when you place them side by side, but not a lot of successful WR's have run 4.6 forty's. It doesn't mean they can't or won't be good, it just says that the team has a threshold and doesn't want that much risk with a pick.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: What do we get for trading back?  How far do we have  to drop?

I still think i grab Hamilton at 12 if he's there unless we can stay in the top 25 and pick up an extra first next year.  I dont give up a chance at Hamilton or a couple of those other names for an extra day 2 pick.

I think if the Vikings knew they could still get McDuffie and trade down, they'd do it. But that's the risky part. And like you say, for what and how far down?
I'm reading that teams have real concern about Hamilton's lack of speed. 

1 week from the draft... I am hearing a lot of shit being floated about almost every player.  I am guessing that Hamilton buzz is coming from teams hoping he will drop to them so they can get a shot at him.  kind of like mcduffie's height,  and a lot of the other arbitrary stuff that comes out....  for me its this,  Hamilton was a stud, even against high level talent,  his foot speed wasnt an issue.  I grab him and dont look back.

That and the fact that safety is not a premium position. Either way, I'd love to have him.

FWIW, it's not McDuffie's height. 1/4-inch under 5-11 is plenty tall enough. It's his arm length that has everyone in a tizzy. Because there's precisely the diameter of a penny difference between his arm length and Derek Stingley's. What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Hawkvike25" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: What do we get for trading back?  How far do we have  to drop?

I still think i grab Hamilton at 12 if he's there unless we can stay in the top 25 and pick up an extra first next year.  I dont give up a chance at Hamilton or a couple of those other names for an extra day 2 pick.

I think if the Vikings knew they could still get McDuffie and trade down, they'd do it. But that's the risky part. And like you say, for what and how far down?
I'm reading that teams have real concern about Hamilton's lack of speed. 

1 week from the draft... I am hearing a lot of shit being floated about almost every player.  I am guessing that Hamilton buzz is coming from teams hoping he will drop to them so they can get a shot at him.  kind of like mcduffie's height,  and a lot of the other arbitrary stuff that comes out....  for me its this,  Hamilton was a stud, even against high level talent,  his foot speed wasnt an issue.  I grab him and dont look back.

That and the fact that safety is not a premium position. Either way, I'd love to have him.

FWIW, it's not McDuffie's height. 1/4-inch under 5-11 is plenty tall enough. It's his arm length that has everyone in a tizzy. Because there's precisely the diameter of a penny difference between his arm length and Derek Stingley's. What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke. 

What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke.  - Come on, MB, you're leaving out a crucial piece which is the recent history of outside CB's with arms under 30". People here like him, myself included, but there's a reason NFL teams have minimum thresholds on measurables like that. History tends to repeat itself so it's more likely that his a slot guy based on the arm length. He could be a solid outside guy too, but history in the last 6-7 years says otherwise.

I'm sure some teams say "We wont draft a WR that high when he runs a 4.61 forty, but we will draft the player who runs a 4.56 forty". It's not much different when you place them side by side, but not a lot of successful WR's have run 4.6 forty's. It doesn't mean they can't or won't be good, it just says that the team has a threshold and doesn't want that much risk with a pick.

Yes, teams have thresholds. But I'm fairly certain these thresholds are fluid and flexible based on other factors. If a team eliminates player A because of a measurable that falls 1/8 of an inch under a threshold, but is all in on player B who is 1/2 an inch over....they deserve everything they get. 

@"Hawkvike25" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: What do we get for trading back?  How far do we have  to drop?

I still think i grab Hamilton at 12 if he's there unless we can stay in the top 25 and pick up an extra first next year.  I dont give up a chance at Hamilton or a couple of those other names for an extra day 2 pick.

I think if the Vikings knew they could still get McDuffie and trade down, they'd do it. But that's the risky part. And like you say, for what and how far down?
I'm reading that teams have real concern about Hamilton's lack of speed. 

1 week from the draft... I am hearing a lot of shit being floated about almost every player.  I am guessing that Hamilton buzz is coming from teams hoping he will drop to them so they can get a shot at him.  kind of like mcduffie's height,  and a lot of the other arbitrary stuff that comes out....  for me its this,  Hamilton was a stud, even against high level talent,  his foot speed wasnt an issue.  I grab him and dont look back.

That and the fact that safety is not a premium position. Either way, I'd love to have him.

FWIW, it's not McDuffie's height. 1/4-inch under 5-11 is plenty tall enough. It's his arm length that has everyone in a tizzy. Because there's precisely the diameter of a penny difference between his arm length and Derek Stingley's. What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke. 

What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke.  - Come on, MB, you're leaving out a crucial piece which is the recent history of outside CB's with arms under 30". People here like him, myself included, but there's a reason NFL teams have minimum thresholds on measurables like that. History tends to repeat itself so it's more likely that his a slot guy based on the arm length. He could be a solid outside guy too, but history in the last 6-7 years says otherwise.

I'm sure some teams say "We wont draft a WR that high when he runs a 4.61 forty, but we will draft the player who runs a 4.56 forty". It's not much different when you place them side by side, but not a lot of successful WR's have run 4.6 forty's. It doesn't mean they can't or won't be good, it just says that the team has a threshold and doesn't want that much risk with a pick.

@"supafreak84" said: I don't think the Vikings will trade up at all and will let the board shake out and come to them since they are going to have some excellent options with the 12th pick. I would be hugely disappointed if they took McDuffie at 12. If they traded out of the top 20 and ended up with him, fine, but to take him at 12 over some other players that will be available would be a huge mistake IMO. I think it's going to come down to Kyle Hamilton, Garrett Wilson, or Jameson Williams if they sit tight and make a selection at 12. Outside chance at Jordan Davis, but those three I mentioned would be my betting favorites. 

@"Wetlander" said:

@"supafreak84" said: I don't think the Vikings will trade up at all and will let the board shake out and come to them since they are going to have some excellent options with the 12th pick. I would be hugely disappointed if they took McDuffie at 12. If they traded out of the top 20 and ended up with him, fine, but to take him at 12 over some other players that will be available would be a huge mistake IMO. I think it's going to come down to Kyle Hamilton, Garrett Wilson, or Jameson Williams if they sit tight and make a selection at 12. Outside chance at Jordan Davis, but those three I mentioned would be my betting favorites. 

I wouldnt call it a huge mistake, he's a good player.  I just don't think it would be the best value depending on who else is available...  especially if McDuffie is just a slot guy and not an outside CB.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Hawkvike25" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: What do we get for trading back?  How far do we have  to drop?

I still think i grab Hamilton at 12 if he's there unless we can stay in the top 25 and pick up an extra first next year.  I dont give up a chance at Hamilton or a couple of those other names for an extra day 2 pick.

I think if the Vikings knew they could still get McDuffie and trade down, they'd do it. But that's the risky part. And like you say, for what and how far down?
I'm reading that teams have real concern about Hamilton's lack of speed. 

1 week from the draft... I am hearing a lot of shit being floated about almost every player.  I am guessing that Hamilton buzz is coming from teams hoping he will drop to them so they can get a shot at him.  kind of like mcduffie's height,  and a lot of the other arbitrary stuff that comes out....  for me its this,  Hamilton was a stud, even against high level talent,  his foot speed wasnt an issue.  I grab him and dont look back.

That and the fact that safety is not a premium position. Either way, I'd love to have him.

FWIW, it's not McDuffie's height. 1/4-inch under 5-11 is plenty tall enough. It's his arm length that has everyone in a tizzy. Because there's precisely the diameter of a penny difference between his arm length and Derek Stingley's. What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke. 

What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke.  - Come on, MB, you're leaving out a crucial piece which is the recent history of outside CB's with arms under 30". People here like him, myself included, but there's a reason NFL teams have minimum thresholds on measurables like that. History tends to repeat itself so it's more likely that his a slot guy based on the arm length. He could be a solid outside guy too, but history in the last 6-7 years says otherwise.

I'm sure some teams say "We wont draft a WR that high when he runs a 4.61 forty, but we will draft the player who runs a 4.56 forty". It's not much different when you place them side by side, but not a lot of successful WR's have run 4.6 forty's. It doesn't mean they can't or won't be good, it just says that the team has a threshold and doesn't want that much risk with a pick.

One more thing. Speed is a whole different thing. Watch a simulcast of a 4.4 guy and a 4.6 guy. Sure, we're only talking about 2/10ths of a second difference here, but over 40 yards that results in about 4 yards of difference give or take. If you're a corner who runs 4.6 and you're covering a 4.4 receiver and he runs a 40 yard go, he's going to beat you by about 4 yards. 4 yards is a significant number. 3/4 of inch in arm length—which rarely even comes into play, and even when it does, like press and maybe 50/50 balls, both of which are mitigated and blurred by pad level and vertical jump—is just not. 

If Hamilton is there I'm staying.  If he goes I'm listening to offers. There's not a lot of difference between #12 and, say, #22 in this draft.  If someone will throw me a 2nd and I can still get a McDuffie/Davis/Booth/Linderbaum instead of taking them at 12 then I'll take it.

@"RS Express" said: If Hamilton is there I'm staying.  If he goes I'm listening to offers. There's not a lot of difference between #12 and, say, #22 in this draft.  If someone will throw me a 2nd and I can still get a McDuffie/Davis/Booth/Linderbaum instead of taking them at 12 then I'll take it.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"RS Express" said: If Hamilton is there I'm staying.  If he goes I'm listening to offers. There's not a lot of difference between #12 and, say, #22 in this draft.  If someone will throw me a 2nd and I can still get a McDuffie/Davis/Booth/Linderbaum instead of taking them at 12 then I'll take it.

There's just so much value in trading down. I'm not completely sold on who I would stay for, but if the Vikings can trade down, pick up a 2nd rounder, they can pretty much rebuild their defense. Four picks in the top 77: 1.CB, 2a.S, 2b.DL, 3.LB. Assuming they all compete for starting roles, this would be a massive shot in the arm for Donatell's defense. 

@"AGRforever" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Hawkvike25" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: What do we get for trading back?  How far do we have  to drop?

I still think i grab Hamilton at 12 if he's there unless we can stay in the top 25 and pick up an extra first next year.  I dont give up a chance at Hamilton or a couple of those other names for an extra day 2 pick.

I think if the Vikings knew they could still get McDuffie and trade down, they'd do it. But that's the risky part. And like you say, for what and how far down?
I'm reading that teams have real concern about Hamilton's lack of speed. 

1 week from the draft... I am hearing a lot of shit being floated about almost every player.  I am guessing that Hamilton buzz is coming from teams hoping he will drop to them so they can get a shot at him.  kind of like mcduffie's height,  and a lot of the other arbitrary stuff that comes out....  for me its this,  Hamilton was a stud, even against high level talent,  his foot speed wasnt an issue.  I grab him and dont look back.

That and the fact that safety is not a premium position. Either way, I'd love to have him.

FWIW, it's not McDuffie's height. 1/4-inch under 5-11 is plenty tall enough. It's his arm length that has everyone in a tizzy. Because there's precisely the diameter of a penny difference between his arm length and Derek Stingley's. What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke. 

What has sports fans so concerned is that Stingley, who has zero arm length concerns, has arms that measure over 30", while McDuffie's arms are under 30". And no that's not a joke.  - Come on, MB, you're leaving out a crucial piece which is the recent history of outside CB's with arms under 30". People here like him, myself included, but there's a reason NFL teams have minimum thresholds on measurables like that. History tends to repeat itself so it's more likely that his a slot guy based on the arm length. He could be a solid outside guy too, but history in the last 6-7 years says otherwise.

I'm sure some teams say "We wont draft a WR that high when he runs a 4.61 forty, but we will draft the player who runs a 4.56 forty". It's not much different when you place them side by side, but not a lot of successful WR's have run 4.6 forty's. It doesn't mean they can't or won't be good, it just says that the team has a threshold and doesn't want that much risk with a pick.

One more thing. Speed is a whole different thing. Watch a simulcast of a 4.4 guy and a 4.6 guy. Sure, we're only talking about 2/10ths of a second difference here, but over 40 yards that results in about 4 yards of difference give or take. If you're a corner who runs 4.6 and you're covering a 4.4 receiver and he runs a 40 yard go, he's going to beat you by about 4 yards. 4 yards is a significant number. 3/4 of inch in arm length—which rarely even comes into play, and even when it does, like press and maybe 50/50 balls, both of which are mitigated and blurred by pad level and vertical jump—is just not. 

Just have him wear high heels. Problem solved. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"RS Express" said: If Hamilton is there I'm staying.  If he goes I'm listening to offers. There's not a lot of difference between #12 and, say, #22 in this draft.  If someone will throw me a 2nd and I can still get a McDuffie/Davis/Booth/Linderbaum instead of taking them at 12 then I'll take it.

There's just so much value in trading down. I'm not completely sold on who I would stay for, but if the Vikings can trade down, pick up a 2nd rounder, they can pretty much rebuild their defense. Four picks in the top 77: 1.CB, 2a.S, 2b.DL, 3.LB. Assuming they all compete for starting roles, this would be a massive shot in the arm for Donatell's defense. 

@"RS Express" said: If Hamilton is there I'm staying.  If he goes I'm listening to offers. There's not a lot of difference between #12 and, say, #22 in this draft.  If someone will throw me a 2nd and I can still get a McDuffie/Davis/Booth/Linderbaum instead of taking them at 12 then I'll take it.

Right.....but if the value is the same.....why would a team trade up?
Unless of course its for one of the QBs and/or we luck out.  To be a seller you have to have a buyer and if the quality of the prospect doesn't dip much I doubt you're going to see huge offers for a move up. 

@"AGRforever" said:

@"RS Express" said: If Hamilton is there I'm staying.  If he goes I'm listening to offers. There's not a lot of difference between #12 and, say, #22 in this draft.  If someone will throw me a 2nd and I can still get a McDuffie/Davis/Booth/Linderbaum instead of taking them at 12 then I'll take it.

Right.....but if the value is the same.....why would a team trade up?
Unless of course its for one of the QBs and/or we luck out.  To be a seller you have to have a buyer and if the quality of the prospect doesn't dip much I doubt you're going to see huge offers for a move up. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"RS Express" said: If Hamilton is there I'm staying.  If he goes I'm listening to offers. There's not a lot of difference between #12 and, say, #22 in this draft.  If someone will throw me a 2nd and I can still get a McDuffie/Davis/Booth/Linderbaum instead of taking them at 12 then I'll take it.

Right.....but if the value is the same.....why would a team trade up?
Unless of course its for one of the QBs and/or we luck out.  To be a seller you have to have a buyer and if the quality of the prospect doesn't dip much I doubt you're going to see huge offers for a move up. 

Because drafting for BPA is largely a myth. Teams tend to draft for need, so if there's a player on the board at 12 that a lower team needs and/or loves--say one of the tackles falls, or there's a WR, or one of either Willis or Pickett is on the board, you can bet that our draft slot will generate interest. 

I like Stingley and McDuffie. I like Hamilton and Jermaine Johnson. But you could make an argument that a combo of, say, Booth and Cine, or Booth and Logan Hall, might be better value than any ONE of the above. Might.

Sure, as KAM says, you want elite players, but the draft is a crapshoot and half of all the first rounders will be disappointments. What's more, it's not unusual at all to see 2nd rounders play better than 1st rounders. So, with that in mind, I'm almost always for getting two rolls of the dice over one.