So...Stingley

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"supafreak84" said: From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story. 

Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either. 

I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions. 

- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst. 

- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.  

- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12. 

As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.

Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12. 

Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor. 

Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.  

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"supafreak84" said: From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story. 

Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either. 

I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions. 

- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst. 

- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.  

- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12. 

As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.

Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12. 

Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor. 

Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.  

I can get on board with that. I personally thought Okudah would be good, injuries really have derailed him though so I'll give him one more season. Henderson was more traits than anything else. I was high on Terrell. 

On that note I was thinking about McDuffie and corners historically with short arms. Very different players but the last All-Pro corner with arms under 30" was Asante Samuel. Proves it can be done but it takes a special player. 

Love this play by McD. Tackle is made on the bottom of your screen. Guy who makes it is at the top of your screen. 

A 21+mph max game speed combined with a 92.6 prod score indicates a high ceiling for Trent Mcduffie #NFLDraft2022 pic.twitter.com/kgPFaRhzbl

— Reel Analytics (@RAanalytics) March 28, 2022

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"supafreak84" said: From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story. 

Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either. 

I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions. 

- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst. 

- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.  

- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12. 

As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.

Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12. 

Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor. 

Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.  

I can get on board with that. I personally thought Okudah would be good, injuries really have derailed him though so I'll give him one more season. Henderson was more traits than anything else. I was high on Terrell. 

On that note I was thinking about McDuffie and corners historically with short arms. Very different players but the last All-Pro corner with arms under 30" was Asante Samuel. Proves it can be done but it takes a special player. 

I just don't know what to think about the short arms. It's just sounds like a canard to me. A misleading factor that seems to have more relevance than it really does. 

For example, you could say QBs with hands smaller than 9 inches have never won a Super Bowl. Damn, don't draft QBs with hands under 9 inches! But if less than 2% of QBs in history have hands under 9 inches, how relevant can it be?

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

I just don't know what to think about the short arms. It's just sounds like a canard to me. A misleading factor that seems to have more relevance than it really does. 

For example, you could say QBs with hands smaller than 9 inches have never won a Super Bowl. Damn, don't draft QBs with hands under 9 inches! But if less than 2% of QBs in history have hands under 9 inches, how relevant can it be?

I think some of the "short-arms" talk is overrated. Its a larger deal if you want a guy to play at the LOS on press since you're going to be out leveraged by larger receivers. That won't be an issue for MCD. What could be an issue in the NFL is contested catch situations. Its not any more complicated than it sounds, you just have less length to disrupt the passing lane and shoot through the receivers hands. Basically, he needs to be a 1/2" tigher to the receiver than a guy with 1/2" longer arms. Is that an issue? It wasn't in college. In the NFL with receivers that play with better leverage? Maybe. 

Its no death sentence but I think you need to just hyper-analyze his role in the defense. None of the top 5-10 corners in the league have a lack of size/physical presence. There is a reason for that. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"supafreak84" said: From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story. 

Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either. 

I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions. 

- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst. 

- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.  

- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12. 

As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.

Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12. 

Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor. 

Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.  

I can get on board with that. I personally thought Okudah would be good, injuries really have derailed him though so I'll give him one more season. Henderson was more traits than anything else. I was high on Terrell. 

On that note I was thinking about McDuffie and corners historically with short arms. Very different players but the last All-Pro corner with arms under 30" was Asante Samuel. Proves it can be done but it takes a special player. 

I just don't know what to think about the short arms. It's just sounds like a canard to me. A misleading factor that seems to have more relevance than it really does. 

For example, you could say QBs with hands smaller than 9 inches have never won a Super Bowl. Damn, don't draft QBs with hands under 9 inches! But if less than 2% of QBs in history have hands under 9 inches, how relevant can it be?

I think some of the "short-arms" talk is overrated. Its a larger deal if you want a guy to play at the LOS on press since you're going to be out leveraged by larger receivers. That won't be an issue for MCD. What could be an issue in the NFL is contested catch situations. Its not any more complicated than it sounds, you just have less length to disrupt the passing lane and shoot through the receivers hands. Basically, he needs to be a 1/2" tigher to the receiver than a guy with 1/2" longer arms. Is that an issue? It wasn't in college. In the NFL with receivers that play with better leverage? Maybe. 

Its no death sentence but I think you need to just hyper-analyze his role in the defense. None of the top 5-10 corners in the league have a lack of size/physical presence. There is a reason for that. 

Derek Stingley Jr. set to do all drills at LSU Pro DayCornerback Derek Stingley Jr. did not spent much time on the field for LSU over the last two seasons and that’s led to some questions about how high he should go in this year’s draft.
Teams still wondering about where Stingley should go on their board are set to get a chance to watch him in action this week. Ian Rapoport of NFL Media reports that Stingley is scheduled to do all drills at LSU’s Pro Day workout on Wednesday.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/04/04/derek-stingley-jr-set-to-do-all-drills-at-lsu-pro-day/

Stingley seems to have the potential to be one of the best in the league. He sure seems to have the physical abilities to do so. Unfortunately, he was that guy 2 years ago. They say he has been making business decisions since. He should have a great pro day tomorrow. But when it comes to the pros, I worry about his longevity. 
But his upside is so great, it may be worth the gamble. This new defensive scheme would benefit greatly if it had a CB that could play press coverage. I would move up for the sauce if he would fall within reach. 

@"jargomcfargo" said: Stingley seems to have the potential to be one of the best in the league. He sure seems to have the physical abilities to do so. Unfortunately, he was that guy 2 years ago. They say he has been making business decisions since. He should have a great pro day tomorrow. But when it comes to the pros, I worry about his longevity.  But his upside is so great, it may be worth the gamble. This new defensive scheme would benefit greatly if it had a CB that could play press coverage. I would move up for the sauce if he would fall within reach. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"jargomcfargo" said: Stingley seems to have the potential to be one of the best in the league. He sure seems to have the physical abilities to do so. Unfortunately, he was that guy 2 years ago. They say he has been making business decisions since. He should have a great pro day tomorrow. But when it comes to the pros, I worry about his longevity.  But his upside is so great, it may be worth the gamble. This new defensive scheme would benefit greatly if it had a CB that could play press coverage. I would move up for the sauce if he would fall within reach. 

Yep. I wish it were as simple as the injury thing, but there's some buzz that there might be more to it than that. Worth the gamble at 12?  Maybe. Undecided. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"jargomcfargo" said: Stingley seems to have the potential to be one of the best in the league. He sure seems to have the physical abilities to do so. Unfortunately, he was that guy 2 years ago. They say he has been making business decisions since. He should have a great pro day tomorrow. But when it comes to the pros, I worry about his longevity.  But his upside is so great, it may be worth the gamble. This new defensive scheme would benefit greatly if it had a CB that could play press coverage. I would move up for the sauce if he would fall within reach. 

Yep. I wish it were as simple as the injury thing, but there's some buzz that there might be more to it than that. Worth the gamble at 12?  Maybe. Undecided. 

thats where i am at.  the pedigree,   the past performance,  its all there,  but something screams "run" in my head when I think of taking him at 12.  Probably over thinking it, but why werent any of his team mates at his 21st birthday party?

38.5 inch vert and ran a 4.37. Bet that changes folks' Big Boards and Mock Drafts

@"Hawkvike25" said: 38.5 inch vert and ran a 4.37. Bet that changes folks' Big Boards and Mock Drafts

I'm thinking him and Sauce will both be off the board now. But hey, at least we won a meaningless game against the Bears in the last game that would have put us right in that mix from a draft position standpoint for both of those players. I'm so tired of the Vikings doing that shit. Thinking if there's a top player that might fall now it's probably Hamilton. 

@"Hawkvike25" said: 38.5 inch vert and ran a 4.37. Bet that changes folks' Big Boards and Mock Drafts

Time to watch some film on the other CBs! Whoever we wind up with hopefully can play and play well.

@"supafreak84" said:

@"Hawkvike25" said: 38.5 inch vert and ran a 4.37. Bet that changes folks' Big Boards and Mock Drafts

I'm thinking him and Sauce will both be off the board now. But hey, at least we won a meaningless game against the Bears in the last game that would have put us right in that mix from a draft position standpoint for both of those players. I'm so tired of the Vikings doing that shit. Thinking if there's a top player that might fall now it's probably Hamilton. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"Hawkvike25" said: 38.5 inch vert and ran a 4.37. Bet that changes folks' Big Boards and Mock Drafts

I'm thinking him and Sauce will both be off the board now. But hey, at least we won a meaningless game against the Bears in the last game that would have put us right in that mix from a draft position standpoint for both of those players. I'm so tired of the Vikings doing that shit. Thinking if there's a top player that might fall now it's probably Hamilton. 

2 fricking years in a row they pulled that shit... that alone is why zim and spielman should have been fired sooner IMO.

@"supafreak84" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"Hawkvike25" said: 38.5 inch vert and ran a 4.37. Bet that changes folks' Big Boards and Mock Drafts

I'm thinking him and Sauce will both be off the board now. But hey, at least we won a meaningless game against the Bears in the last game that would have put us right in that mix from a draft position standpoint for both of those players. I'm so tired of the Vikings doing that shit. Thinking if there's a top player that might fall now it's probably Hamilton. 

2 fricking years in a row they pulled that shit... that alone is why zim and spielman should have been fired sooner IMO.

I blame the Wilfs. I admire their enthusiasm and always believing we are in the mix, but at some point you have to take control of the organization and order what you believe to be in the best interest of the franchise. Zimmer was a lame duck coach and they should have told him to play ALL the rookies, start Mond, and sit Jefferson and any pertinent players. Ridiculous to have Cousins out there slinging it in a meaningless game against a decimated Bears team. Lose that game and we are probably picking 7th or 8th instead of 12th. 

Get used to the idea that Stingley and Gardner will be gone by 12. There's a good chance that Wilson and Olave will be gone, too. I may be hoping for a trade back. 

 @"Hawkvike25" said:

38.5 inch vert and ran a 4.37. Bet that changes folks' Big Boards and Mock Drafts

@"pattersaur" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"Hawkvike25" said: 38.5 inch vert and ran a 4.37. Bet that changes folks' Big Boards and Mock Drafts

I'm thinking him and Sauce will both be off the board now. But hey, at least we won a meaningless game against the Bears in the last game that would have put us right in that mix from a draft position standpoint for both of those players. I'm so tired of the Vikings doing that shit. Thinking if there's a top player that might fall now it's probably Hamilton. 

2 fricking years in a row they pulled that shit... that alone is why zim and spielman should have been fired sooner IMO.

I blame the Wilfs. I admire their enthusiasm and always believing we are in the mix, but at some point you have to take control of the organization and order what you believe to be in the best interest of the franchise. Zimmer was a lame duck coach and they should have told him to play ALL the rookies, start Mond, and sit Jefferson and any pertinent players. Ridiculous to have Cousins out there slinging it in a meaningless game against a decimated Bears team. Lose that game and we are probably picking 7th or 8th instead of 12th. 

I think we’d have been picking 10th. Also JJ wanted his record and it would have been good to see Mond throwing to him, but I agree with everything else you and Jimmy said. Keeping Zim arouns til the end of the year out of respect seems even more odd now, with all of the reports that have come out once the season was over. Not saying trash the guy on his way out the door but it was in the best interest of the team to move on sooner.