Supafreak84's Mock Draft (version 1.0)
After having a chance to look at more tape of different players and what guys fit what we want, this is what I've come up with as an initial projection:
1. (14th) Christian Barmore, DT Alabama- I think in this scenario the Vikings are going to have some interesting players to choose from. You will probably have an elite offensive skill guy and some lineman to pick from, but to me nobody does more for our needs then Barmore who is the top DT in this class. You could argue the Vikings could try to move down a few spots, pick up some draft capitol, and still get Barmore...but there is no guarantee and I don't think you get cute in this situation. Barmore is an early draft entrant with a ton of upside at 6'5"/315 pounds. Started the year slow after a preseason knee injury but dominated as the year went on. 8 sacks on the year and plays with power while constantly pushing the pocket. I think for the Vikings who were constantly pushed around last season on both lines, you know Zimmer will be pounding the table for help along that defensive line. Sticking Barmore inside next to Michael Pierce gives the Vikings a powerful inside presence and 650 pounds of pocket collapsing power for Eric Kendricks to run wild and clean behind. To me this is the biggest impact pick the Vikings could make.
*(trade)*The Vikings have the draft capitol to move up back into the second round and I think they do that in a trade with New Orleans (60) who only has 3 picks in the entire draft and the worst cap situation in football. Vikings give up a 3rd (79th), 4th (116), and a 5th (141) to move up.
2. (60th) Quinn Meinerz, C/G Wisoncsin Whitewater- Small school division III standout who dominated and was the talk of Senior Bowl week. His tape is crazy. Can dunk a basketball at 6'3"/320 and is an incredible athlete. The Vikings need to get more physical on their interior offensive line and I think Meinerz can be plugged in anywhere and present an immediate upgrade and is a perfect scheme fit. If ever there was a lineman that had Minnesota Viking stamped all over him its Meinerz. I'm unsure where his value is at this point post Senior Bowl week but he has certainly skyrocketed and I have no issue with taking him at this point.
3. (91) Caden Sterns, S Texas- Vikings need safety help as I think its unlikely Anthony Harris is retained. Sterns is a three year starter for Texas with nice size 6'1"/210 and displays nice fluidity and really nice instincts. Candidate to start next to Harrison Smith as a rookie.
4. (110) Tommy Tremble, TE Notre Dame- The best blocking TE in this draft class. Absolutely buries defenders regularly which will boost his stock for the Vikings. I'm guessing Kyle Rudolph will be a cap casualty and depth at the position will be needed. Tremble is a good route runner and a big body 6'4"/250 who shows the ability to consistently make tough catches. Didn't post the numbers due to Notre Dame running a lot of multiple TE formations and the ball being distributed amongst them.
4. (125) Elerson Smith, DE UNI- This is just another classic Vikings pick taking a tall (6'6"/260) rangy end and Andre Patterson molding them into a playmaker. Smith is from Minnesota and has added 60 pounds to his frame since stepping foot onto campus. He who hasn't played a ton of football the last couple seasons (covid opt out), but was coached by former Viking Bryce Paup at UNI. He showed out at the Senior Bowl and displayed a nice get off and recognition. Lump of clay...
5. (155) Felipe Franks, QB Arkansas- I have been pounding the table for this organization to roll the dice on a physically gifted QB to mold as a backup...maybe this will be the year. Franks (6'6"/228) can make all the throws and has the arm strength to do it, but needs to develop more consistency in making the easy throws and work on mechanics. Highly recruited prospect out of high school who was a transfer from Florida and had a nice season for Arkansas.
6. (175) Adrian Ealy, OT Oklahoma- Big bodied, long armed, developmental tackle to add to the mix. I'm really hoping the Vikings can bring back Riley Reiff but even if they do depth at the position is needed.
7. (206) Javon McKinley, WR Notre Dame- Big bodied WR who plays the position like a basketball player. Came through as the main target for Ian Book this season in the passing game. Wont wow anybody with his speed or ability to separate but will compete, and the Vikings need more quality competition behind Jefferson/Thielen.
To me this draft makes us a much more physical unit, addresses needs, and add's depth at positions its badly needed.
@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
@"PurpleCrush" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
not to take away from KWill, but I would expect a first round pick to be as good or better considering he would be playing next to an All Pro DE and what is supposed to be an upper tier DT. I would expect a middle of the road guy to look pretty rock solid between Hunter and Pierce, but I wouldnt take a middle of the road guy with the #14 pick. If Barmore isnt viewed as a KWill or better type player than he shouldnt be the pick at 14 IMO.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
not to take away from KWill, but I would expect a first round pick to be as good or better considering he would be playing next to an All Pro DE and what is supposed to be an upper tier DT. I would expect a middle of the road guy to look pretty rock solid between Hunter and Pierce, but I wouldnt take a middle of the road guy with the #14 pick. If Barmore isnt viewed as a KWill or better type player than he shouldnt be the pick at 14 IMO.
KWill is a borderline HOF player. I'm not ready to bestow that on any kid who hasn't played a down in the league just yet. Just from watching him this past season this kid reminds me a bit of KWill, and even if he ends up being a slightly lesser type player that would still be a homerun pick, at least in my eyes.
@"PurpleCrush" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
not to take away from KWill, but I would expect a first round pick to be as good or better considering he would be playing next to an All Pro DE and what is supposed to be an upper tier DT. I would expect a middle of the road guy to look pretty rock solid between Hunter and Pierce, but I wouldnt take a middle of the road guy with the #14 pick. If Barmore isnt viewed as a KWill or better type player than he shouldnt be the pick at 14 IMO.
KWill is a borderline HOF player. I'm not ready to bestow that on any kid who hasn't played a down in the league just yet. Just from watching him this past season this kid reminds me a bit of KWill, and even if he ends up being a slightly lesser type player that would still be a homerun pick, at least in my eyes.
KWill being the high side for a first rounder that gets to play off of Hunter and Pierce isnt good enough. A player taken at 14 needs to be viewed as having a greater impact than KWill if he gets to play between Hunter and Pierce (assuming Hunter comes back as good as pre injury, and Pierce is close to as good as some profess he will be.) you say KWill light... I say he better be as big of an impact if not bigger considering what hes got around him.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
not to take away from KWill, but I would expect a first round pick to be as good or better considering he would be playing next to an All Pro DE and what is supposed to be an upper tier DT. I would expect a middle of the road guy to look pretty rock solid between Hunter and Pierce, but I wouldnt take a middle of the road guy with the #14 pick. If Barmore isnt viewed as a KWill or better type player than he shouldnt be the pick at 14 IMO.
KWill is a borderline HOF player. I'm not ready to bestow that on any kid who hasn't played a down in the league just yet. Just from watching him this past season this kid reminds me a bit of KWill, and even if he ends up being a slightly lesser type player that would still be a homerun pick, at least in my eyes.
KWill being the high side for a first rounder that gets to play off of Hunter and Pierce isnt good enough. A player taken at 14 needs to be viewed as having a greater impact than KWill if he gets to play between Hunter and Pierce (assuming Hunter comes back as good as pre injury, and Pierce is close to as good as some profess he will be.) you say KWill light... I say he better be as big of an impact if not bigger considering what hes got around him.
I don't think that is a fair expectation, you're only going to be disappointed. K-Will was one of the best DTs in the league during his prime years. Barmore is a redshirt sophmore who has started only a handful of games and needs A TON of technical refinement. High ceiling but you're not going to get a year 1 impact player.
@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
not to take away from KWill, but I would expect a first round pick to be as good or better considering he would be playing next to an All Pro DE and what is supposed to be an upper tier DT. I would expect a middle of the road guy to look pretty rock solid between Hunter and Pierce, but I wouldnt take a middle of the road guy with the #14 pick. If Barmore isnt viewed as a KWill or better type player than he shouldnt be the pick at 14 IMO.
KWill is a borderline HOF player. I'm not ready to bestow that on any kid who hasn't played a down in the league just yet. Just from watching him this past season this kid reminds me a bit of KWill, and even if he ends up being a slightly lesser type player that would still be a homerun pick, at least in my eyes.
KWill being the high side for a first rounder that gets to play off of Hunter and Pierce isnt good enough. A player taken at 14 needs to be viewed as having a greater impact than KWill if he gets to play between Hunter and Pierce (assuming Hunter comes back as good as pre injury, and Pierce is close to as good as some profess he will be.) you say KWill light... I say he better be as big of an impact if not bigger considering what hes got around him.
I don't think that is a fair expectation, you're only going to be disappointed. K-Will was one of the best DTs in the league during his prime years. Barmore is a redshirt sophmore who has started only a handful of games and needs A TON of technical refinement. High ceiling but you're not going to get a year 1 impact player.
KWill wasnt KWill year one, but I am saying if you use that #14 pick on a DT, you should expect KWill, for his career, at a minimum considering the caliber of players he is platooned with. Anything short of that and we should be looking at other players/positions for a top of his position in his prime type of player.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
not to take away from KWill, but I would expect a first round pick to be as good or better considering he would be playing next to an All Pro DE and what is supposed to be an upper tier DT. I would expect a middle of the road guy to look pretty rock solid between Hunter and Pierce, but I wouldnt take a middle of the road guy with the #14 pick. If Barmore isnt viewed as a KWill or better type player than he shouldnt be the pick at 14 IMO.
KWill is a borderline HOF player. I'm not ready to bestow that on any kid who hasn't played a down in the league just yet. Just from watching him this past season this kid reminds me a bit of KWill, and even if he ends up being a slightly lesser type player that would still be a homerun pick, at least in my eyes.
KWill being the high side for a first rounder that gets to play off of Hunter and Pierce isnt good enough. A player taken at 14 needs to be viewed as having a greater impact than KWill if he gets to play between Hunter and Pierce (assuming Hunter comes back as good as pre injury, and Pierce is close to as good as some profess he will be.) you say KWill light... I say he better be as big of an impact if not bigger considering what hes got around him.
I don't think that is a fair expectation, you're only going to be disappointed. K-Will was one of the best DTs in the league during his prime years. Barmore is a redshirt sophmore who has started only a handful of games and needs A TON of technical refinement. High ceiling but you're not going to get a year 1 impact player.
KWill wasnt KWill year one, but I am saying if you use that #14 pick on a DT, you should expect KWill, for his career, at a minimum considering the caliber of players he is platooned with. Anything short of that and we should be looking at other players/positions for a top of his position in his prime type of player.
I think you have very high optimism about the 14th overall pick. Last year it was Javon Kinlaw and he had 1.5 sacks as a rookie for the 49ers. Are you expecting all our 1st-rounders to start as well as Jefferson did?I'm just saying something like Geoff - Barmore has high future upside, but not necessarily instant productivity, no matter who he lines up between.
@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
not to take away from KWill, but I would expect a first round pick to be as good or better considering he would be playing next to an All Pro DE and what is supposed to be an upper tier DT. I would expect a middle of the road guy to look pretty rock solid between Hunter and Pierce, but I wouldnt take a middle of the road guy with the #14 pick. If Barmore isnt viewed as a KWill or better type player than he shouldnt be the pick at 14 IMO.
KWill is a borderline HOF player. I'm not ready to bestow that on any kid who hasn't played a down in the league just yet. Just from watching him this past season this kid reminds me a bit of KWill, and even if he ends up being a slightly lesser type player that would still be a homerun pick, at least in my eyes.
KWill being the high side for a first rounder that gets to play off of Hunter and Pierce isnt good enough. A player taken at 14 needs to be viewed as having a greater impact than KWill if he gets to play between Hunter and Pierce (assuming Hunter comes back as good as pre injury, and Pierce is close to as good as some profess he will be.) you say KWill light... I say he better be as big of an impact if not bigger considering what hes got around him.
I don't think that is a fair expectation, you're only going to be disappointed. K-Will was one of the best DTs in the league during his prime years. Barmore is a redshirt sophmore who has started only a handful of games and needs A TON of technical refinement. High ceiling but you're not going to get a year 1 impact player.
KWill wasnt KWill year one, but I am saying if you use that #14 pick on a DT, you should expect KWill, for his career, at a minimum considering the caliber of players he is platooned with. Anything short of that and we should be looking at other players/positions for a top of his position in his prime type of player.
I think you have very high optimism about the 14th overall pick. Last year it was Javon Kinlaw and he had 1.5 sacks as a rookie for the 49ers. Are you expecting all our 1st-rounders to start as well as Jefferson did?I'm just saying something like Geoff - Barmore has high future upside, but not necessarily instant productivity, no matter who he lines up between.
I expect them to identify a future stud and to target him. From 14 we can realistically look at anything outside the top 7 and likely make a deal to move up and get our guy. This team doesn't often draft in the top 20 so when we do IMO we need to get that top tier player and not just another nice career guy. Maybe this draft doesn't have that guy, I dont know, but outside of RB there isn't a position on the team that couldn't use a future all pro addition. If Barmore doesn't have that potential (ie KWill) then we should keep looking IMO, or trade down if possible, not settle.
@"StickyBun" said: I think Minnesota needs a guy like Barrimore more than a DE. I think with Hunter and Pierce back, Wonnum might play a lot better.Same with Odenigbo. He was very effective with a healthy Hunter on the opposite side.
Totally agree on 3T as a much bigger need. The question the Vikings staff will need to answer is Barmore a better prospect at 14 than the Olineman that will be available at that pick? Is Barmore really just the best of a week DT class, or is what we saw at the end of the year what we will be getting? He's young with a lot of upside potential so I would like to think we have the coaching staff that can get the most out of him and fast track his development to start from day 1.
Assuming the top 4 QB's are off the board by the time we pick at 14, I definitely think there will be teams desperate for a QB that may target Mac Jones and try to make a deal with Rick. He had a great Senior Bowl showing even though it was only in practice sessions, but he showed a lot of scouts what he can do.
A ton of QB hungry teams this year could set a record for 1st round QB's drafted.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
not to take away from KWill, but I would expect a first round pick to be as good or better considering he would be playing next to an All Pro DE and what is supposed to be an upper tier DT. I would expect a middle of the road guy to look pretty rock solid between Hunter and Pierce, but I wouldnt take a middle of the road guy with the #14 pick. If Barmore isnt viewed as a KWill or better type player than he shouldnt be the pick at 14 IMO.
KWill is a borderline HOF player. I'm not ready to bestow that on any kid who hasn't played a down in the league just yet. Just from watching him this past season this kid reminds me a bit of KWill, and even if he ends up being a slightly lesser type player that would still be a homerun pick, at least in my eyes.
KWill being the high side for a first rounder that gets to play off of Hunter and Pierce isnt good enough. A player taken at 14 needs to be viewed as having a greater impact than KWill if he gets to play between Hunter and Pierce (assuming Hunter comes back as good as pre injury, and Pierce is close to as good as some profess he will be.) you say KWill light... I say he better be as big of an impact if not bigger considering what hes got around him.
I don't think that is a fair expectation, you're only going to be disappointed. K-Will was one of the best DTs in the league during his prime years. Barmore is a redshirt sophmore who has started only a handful of games and needs A TON of technical refinement. High ceiling but you're not going to get a year 1 impact player.
KWill wasnt KWill year one, but I am saying if you use that #14 pick on a DT, you should expect KWill, for his career, at a minimum considering the caliber of players he is platooned with. Anything short of that and we should be looking at other players/positions for a top of his position in his prime type of player.
I think you have very high optimism about the 14th overall pick. Last year it was Javon Kinlaw and he had 1.5 sacks as a rookie for the 49ers. Are you expecting all our 1st-rounders to start as well as Jefferson did?I'm just saying something like Geoff - Barmore has high future upside, but not necessarily instant productivity, no matter who he lines up between.
I expect them to identify a future stud and to target him. From 14 we can realistically look at anything outside the top 7 and likely make a deal to move up and get our guy. This team doesn't often draft in the top 20 so when we do IMO we need to get that top tier player and not just another nice career guy.
Except this draft doesn't appear to be one of those drafts, where there's a big drop off after the top, say, 10. Without the 2nd rounder, moving up more than one or two spots will be difficult. More to the point: unnecessary. A lot to be decided between now and then, but if we stay at 14, one of the kind of players you're hoping for will fall to us. It's just math. In fact, I would say that there will be several to choose from, likely including most of the following: Slater, AVT, Darrisaw, Barmore, Paye, Rousseau and one or two of the top WRs.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"PurpleCrush" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Carl Knowles" said: @MaroonBells I agree. I hope Odenigbo comes backs.. but I can see another team giving up a 7th round pick and 1.5M to 2.5M for a low end starter.Because Odenigbo didn't have the success I expected this season (3.5 sacks 3 TFL),.. it kind of hurts the Vikings ability to protect him IMO. Hercules Mata'afa (who moved to DE) and Jordan Bailford (who was added to the roster late in the year) both earned higher PFF grades than Odenigbo.
Depth at DE isn't an issue, we have D.J. Wonnum, Jalyn Holmes, Kenny Willekes, Hercules and Bailford.
Regardless of Odenigbo's return or not, the Vikings must add a blue-chip edge rusher via the draft. I would take Rousseau a 14 and then try to trade up into the 2nd rd for DT Daviyon Nixon or DT Alim McNeill.
Where is the draft at right now?... I think it's safe to say the rush for the DT class will probably not start until after the top 3 or 4 edge guys come off the board.
Daniel Jeremiah (a former NFL scout) has edge guys like Gregory Rousseau, Kwitty Paye, Jaelen Phillips and Jayson Owen all ranked higher than Barmore and Nixon.
https://www.nfl.com/news/daniel-jeremiah-s-top-50-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-1-0
I'm not as high on Rousseau, and certainly not Paye as some others. I just think when it comes to impact getting a legitimate 3 technique to compliment the pieces already coming back does more for this team then any other position and you know Zimmer is going to be pounding the table to reboot this defense. To me Eric Kendricks was in the conversation for defensive player of the year prior to injury with Stephen and Johnson as his front. Can you imagine what he does getting Pierce in their along with say a Christian Barmore? I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys outside of Phillips
I agree with you in large part, but I think you highlighted the issue with Barmore: "I would certainly place Barmore's upside probably higher then most of those edge guys". Upside eventually, but what will he be contributing in 2021? I actually see him as a prospect much like Kevin Williams: enormous potential that probably won't be realized for a year or two. Drop him into the starting lineup on day 1 and there will probably be some mistakes, not necessarily an immediate defensive upgrade.
Funny, that's a comparison I've made before when looking at Barmore. KWill was more dynamic, and actually started out as a DE, but I think eventually Barmore could be a Kevin Williams-light type of player, especially playing in between Hunter and Pierce.
not to take away from KWill, but I would expect a first round pick to be as good or better considering he would be playing next to an All Pro DE and what is supposed to be an upper tier DT. I would expect a middle of the road guy to look pretty rock solid between Hunter and Pierce, but I wouldnt take a middle of the road guy with the #14 pick. If Barmore isnt viewed as a KWill or better type player than he shouldnt be the pick at 14 IMO.
KWill is a borderline HOF player. I'm not ready to bestow that on any kid who hasn't played a down in the league just yet. Just from watching him this past season this kid reminds me a bit of KWill, and even if he ends up being a slightly lesser type player that would still be a homerun pick, at least in my eyes.
KWill being the high side for a first rounder that gets to play off of Hunter and Pierce isnt good enough. A player taken at 14 needs to be viewed as having a greater impact than KWill if he gets to play between Hunter and Pierce (assuming Hunter comes back as good as pre injury, and Pierce is close to as good as some profess he will be.) you say KWill light... I say he better be as big of an impact if not bigger considering what hes got around him.
I don't think that is a fair expectation, you're only going to be disappointed. K-Will was one of the best DTs in the league during his prime years. Barmore is a redshirt sophmore who has started only a handful of games and needs A TON of technical refinement. High ceiling but you're not going to get a year 1 impact player.
KWill wasnt KWill year one, but I am saying if you use that #14 pick on a DT, you should expect KWill, for his career, at a minimum considering the caliber of players he is platooned with. Anything short of that and we should be looking at other players/positions for a top of his position in his prime type of player.
I think you have very high optimism about the 14th overall pick. Last year it was Javon Kinlaw and he had 1.5 sacks as a rookie for the 49ers. Are you expecting all our 1st-rounders to start as well as Jefferson did?I'm just saying something like Geoff - Barmore has high future upside, but not necessarily instant productivity, no matter who he lines up between.
I expect them to identify a future stud and to target him. From 14 we can realistically look at anything outside the top 7 and likely make a deal to move up and get our guy. This team doesn't often draft in the top 20 so when we do IMO we need to get that top tier player and not just another nice career guy.
Except this draft doesn't appear to be one of those drafts, where there's a big drop off after the top, say, 10. Without the 2nd rounder, moving up more than one or two spots will be difficult. More to the point: unnecessary. A lot to be decided between now and then, but if we stay at 14, one of the kind of players you're hoping for will fall to us. It's just math. In fact, I would say that there will be several to choose from, likely including most of the following: Slater, AVT, Darrisaw, Barmore, Paye, Rousseau and one or two of the top WRs.
take it up with Jor -el, he says I am asking for to much at 14. I am not up at all on this years draft so I will let you guys fight it out, I just want a stud that will contend for the probowl every year ( legitly contend, not back in after the rest of the league opts out) we should be able to find that guy in the 7-10 range and thats only giving up a 3rd and 4th if needed to get there... unless as you say other positions get hog piled and that forces some studs to drop. we can find "nice" players in the high teens and 20s where we normally draft, I want to see another stud added if we can find one at an impact position and if they allowed us to move on from a bad contract then giddy up.... if DT and OL isnt in the cards, what have you got for me in a linebacker?
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I don't think that is a fair expectation, you're only going to be disappointed. K-Will was one of the best DTs in the league during his prime years. Barmore is a redshirt sophmore who has started only a handful of games and needs A TON of technical refinement. High ceiling but you're not going to get a year 1 impact player.
KWill wasnt KWill year one, but I am saying if you use that #14 pick on a DT, you should expect KWill, for his career, at a minimum considering the caliber of players he is platooned with. Anything short of that and we should be looking at other players/positions for a top of his position in his prime type of player.
I think you have very high optimism about the 14th overall pick. Last year it was Javon Kinlaw and he had 1.5 sacks as a rookie for the 49ers. Are you expecting all our 1st-rounders to start as well as Jefferson did?I'm just saying something like Geoff - Barmore has high future upside, but not necessarily instant productivity, no matter who he lines up between.
I expect them to identify a future stud and to target him. From 14 we can realistically look at anything outside the top 7 and likely make a deal to move up and get our guy. This team doesn't often draft in the top 20 so when we do IMO we need to get that top tier player and not just another nice career guy.
Except this draft doesn't appear to be one of those drafts, where there's a big drop off after the top, say, 10. Without the 2nd rounder, moving up more than one or two spots will be difficult. More to the point: unnecessary. A lot to be decided between now and then, but if we stay at 14, one of the kind of players you're hoping for will fall to us. It's just math. In fact, I would say that there will be several to choose from, likely including most of the following: Slater, AVT, Darrisaw, Barmore, Paye, Rousseau and one or two of the top WRs.
take it up with Jor -el, he says I am asking for to much at 14. I am not up at all on this years draft so I will let you guys fight it out, I just want a stud that will contend for the probowl every year ( legitly contend, not back in after the rest of the league opts out) we should be able to find that guy in the 7-10 range and thats only giving up a 3rd and 4th if needed to get there... unless as you say other positions get hog piled and that forces some studs to drop. we can find "nice" players in the high teens and 20s where we normally draft, I want to see another stud added if we can find one at an impact position and if they allowed us to move on from a bad contract then giddy up.... if DT and OL isnt in the cards, what have you got for me in a linebacker?
Well, I said we might have to be happy with a player like Kevin Williams, and that someone like him (thinking of DT Christian Barmore specifically) could EVENTUALLY be a multi-year stud, but take a year or two to realize that potential.I don't think we can assume the 14th pick will be both an instant starter and a dominant All-Pro. Those guys are gone in the top 10, often top 5. Do you sometimes get both? Sure - we got Moss, and it looks like Jefferson could be one of those as well. I'll add Randall McDaniel, picked 19th in 1988. (Not Adrian Peterson because he was the 7th overall.) That's 3 guys in 40 years we picked after the top 10 who were instant starters and dominant at their position long-term (hopefully in the case of Jefferson).
I think it's more common to get either someone with very high potential but not quite ready to excel at the NFL level (Trae Waynes, Xavier Rhodes), OR someone who is NFL-ready but has a limited ceiling (Garrett Bradbury, Chad Greenway). This year, Alijah Vera-Tucker could be an instant starter but never dominate the league, while Barmore might sit on the bench as a rookie and turn into a star in 2022 or 2023.
@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I don't think that is a fair expectation, you're only going to be disappointed. K-Will was one of the best DTs in the league during his prime years. Barmore is a redshirt sophmore who has started only a handful of games and needs A TON of technical refinement. High ceiling but you're not going to get a year 1 impact player.
KWill wasnt KWill year one, but I am saying if you use that #14 pick on a DT, you should expect KWill, for his career, at a minimum considering the caliber of players he is platooned with. Anything short of that and we should be looking at other players/positions for a top of his position in his prime type of player.
I think you have very high optimism about the 14th overall pick. Last year it was Javon Kinlaw and he had 1.5 sacks as a rookie for the 49ers. Are you expecting all our 1st-rounders to start as well as Jefferson did?I'm just saying something like Geoff - Barmore has high future upside, but not necessarily instant productivity, no matter who he lines up between.
I expect them to identify a future stud and to target him. From 14 we can realistically look at anything outside the top 7 and likely make a deal to move up and get our guy. This team doesn't often draft in the top 20 so when we do IMO we need to get that top tier player and not just another nice career guy.
Except this draft doesn't appear to be one of those drafts, where there's a big drop off after the top, say, 10. Without the 2nd rounder, moving up more than one or two spots will be difficult. More to the point: unnecessary. A lot to be decided between now and then, but if we stay at 14, one of the kind of players you're hoping for will fall to us. It's just math. In fact, I would say that there will be several to choose from, likely including most of the following: Slater, AVT, Darrisaw, Barmore, Paye, Rousseau and one or two of the top WRs.
take it up with Jor -el, he says I am asking for to much at 14. I am not up at all on this years draft so I will let you guys fight it out, I just want a stud that will contend for the probowl every year ( legitly contend, not back in after the rest of the league opts out) we should be able to find that guy in the 7-10 range and thats only giving up a 3rd and 4th if needed to get there... unless as you say other positions get hog piled and that forces some studs to drop. we can find "nice" players in the high teens and 20s where we normally draft, I want to see another stud added if we can find one at an impact position and if they allowed us to move on from a bad contract then giddy up.... if DT and OL isnt in the cards, what have you got for me in a linebacker?
Well, I said we might have to be happy with a player like Kevin Williams, and that someone like him (thinking of DT Christian Barmore specifically) could EVENTUALLY be a multi-year stud, but take a year or two to realize that potential.I don't think we can assume the 14th pick will be both an instant starter and a dominant All-Pro. Those guys are gone in the top 10, often top 5. Do you sometimes get both? Sure - we got Moss, and it looks like Jefferson could be one of those as well. I'll add Randall McDaniel, picked 19th in 1988. (Not Adrian Peterson because he was the 7th overall.) That's 3 guys in 40 years we picked after the top 10 who were instant starters and dominant at their position long-term (hopefully in the case of Jefferson).
I think it's more common to get either someone with very high potential but not quite ready to excel at the NFL level (Trae Waynes, Xavier Rhodes), OR someone who is NFL-ready but has a limited ceiling (Garrett Bradbury, Chad Greenway). This year, Alijah Vera-Tucker could be an instant starter but never dominate the league, while Barmore might sit on the bench as a rookie and turn into a star in 2022 or 2023.
You're forgetting what a crap shoot the draft is. 1/3 to half of the top 10 will be busts. That percentage doesn't really go up much as you get further down the 1st round. A little, but not as much as you would think.Jefferson at 22 was better than all four receivers taken ahead of him. Aiyuk (25), Higgins (33) and Claypool (49) were better than three of them. AJ Terrell at 16 was better than Okudah at 3. Winfield (45) was better than all four of the safeties taken ahead of him.
Now, these are all rookies and a lot of football is yet to be played, but this is not unusual. Go back 5 years, 10 years...doesn't matter. Having a pick in the top 10 as opposed to, say, 10-20, obviously increases your chance of hitting, but nowhere near as much as you would think based on the perceived value assigned to them by NFL teams.
What's more, every draft is different. You can always point to tiers and clusters and drop offs in talent, and this draft in particular is very strong in the 10-20 range, especially among our positions of need, as much of the top 10 will be dominated by QBs, CBs and WRs. At 14 we could very feasibly have our choice among the OT2, DT1, DE1 and G1. Right now, the only player I would consider moving up for is Sewell, and only then if he falls to the 10-12 range, which is unlikely.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I don't think that is a fair expectation, you're only going to be disappointed. K-Will was one of the best DTs in the league during his prime years. Barmore is a redshirt sophmore who has started only a handful of games and needs A TON of technical refinement. High ceiling but you're not going to get a year 1 impact player.
KWill wasnt KWill year one, but I am saying if you use that #14 pick on a DT, you should expect KWill, for his career, at a minimum considering the caliber of players he is platooned with. Anything short of that and we should be looking at other players/positions for a top of his position in his prime type of player.
I think you have very high optimism about the 14th overall pick. Last year it was Javon Kinlaw and he had 1.5 sacks as a rookie for the 49ers. Are you expecting all our 1st-rounders to start as well as Jefferson did?I'm just saying something like Geoff - Barmore has high future upside, but not necessarily instant productivity, no matter who he lines up between.
I expect them to identify a future stud and to target him. From 14 we can realistically look at anything outside the top 7 and likely make a deal to move up and get our guy. This team doesn't often draft in the top 20 so when we do IMO we need to get that top tier player and not just another nice career guy.
Except this draft doesn't appear to be one of those drafts, where there's a big drop off after the top, say, 10. Without the 2nd rounder, moving up more than one or two spots will be difficult. More to the point: unnecessary. A lot to be decided between now and then, but if we stay at 14, one of the kind of players you're hoping for will fall to us. It's just math. In fact, I would say that there will be several to choose from, likely including most of the following: Slater, AVT, Darrisaw, Barmore, Paye, Rousseau and one or two of the top WRs.
take it up with Jor -el, he says I am asking for to much at 14. I am not up at all on this years draft so I will let you guys fight it out, I just want a stud that will contend for the probowl every year ( legitly contend, not back in after the rest of the league opts out) we should be able to find that guy in the 7-10 range and thats only giving up a 3rd and 4th if needed to get there... unless as you say other positions get hog piled and that forces some studs to drop. we can find "nice" players in the high teens and 20s where we normally draft, I want to see another stud added if we can find one at an impact position and if they allowed us to move on from a bad contract then giddy up.... if DT and OL isnt in the cards, what have you got for me in a linebacker?
Well, I said we might have to be happy with a player like Kevin Williams, and that someone like him (thinking of DT Christian Barmore specifically) could EVENTUALLY be a multi-year stud, but take a year or two to realize that potential.I don't think we can assume the 14th pick will be both an instant starter and a dominant All-Pro. Those guys are gone in the top 10, often top 5. Do you sometimes get both? Sure - we got Moss, and it looks like Jefferson could be one of those as well. I'll add Randall McDaniel, picked 19th in 1988. (Not Adrian Peterson because he was the 7th overall.) That's 3 guys in 40 years we picked after the top 10 who were instant starters and dominant at their position long-term (hopefully in the case of Jefferson).
I think it's more common to get either someone with very high potential but not quite ready to excel at the NFL level (Trae Waynes, Xavier Rhodes), OR someone who is NFL-ready but has a limited ceiling (Garrett Bradbury, Chad Greenway). This year, Alijah Vera-Tucker could be an instant starter but never dominate the league, while Barmore might sit on the bench as a rookie and turn into a star in 2022 or 2023.
You're forgetting what a crap shoot the draft is. 1/3 to half of the top 10 will be busts. That percentage doesn't really go up much as you get further down the 1st round. A little, but not as much as you would think.Jefferson at 22 was better than all four receivers taken ahead of him. Aiyuk (25), Higgins (33) and Claypool (49) were better than three of them. AJ Terrell at 16 was better than Okudah at 3. Winfield (45) was better than all four of the safeties taken ahead of him.
Now, these are all rookies and a lot of football is yet to be played, but this is not unusual. Go back 5 years, 10 years...doesn't matter. Having a pick in the top 10 as opposed to, say, 10-20, obviously increases your chance of hitting, but nowhere near as much as you would think based on the perceived value assigned to them by NFL teams.
What's more, every draft is different. You can always point to tiers and clusters and drop offs in talent, and this draft in particular is very strong in the 10-20 range, especially among our positions of need, as much of the top 10 will be dominated by QBs, CBs and WRs. At 14 we could very feasibly have our choice among the OT2, DT1, DE1 and G1. Right now, the only player I would consider moving up for is Sewell, and only then if he falls to the 10-12 range, which is unlikely.
No, I remember and agree - draft picks are gambles, and that's part of what I was expressing: we can't "count on" a draft pick, whether it's in the teens or even top 10, to step in and fill a hole. It's a big reason I thought we lost the Diggs trade - we gave up someone who had proven he could excel in the NFL in exchange for a throw of the dice. Delighted it worked, but I think people now expect that draft success "guaranteed".
Just want to chime in and say Kevin Williams was awesome. If we get a player even close to that caliber we should be kissing Rick's feet.
Kalil (bust), Barr (solid), Waynes (solid) have all been recent early picks off the top of my head. None can touch KWill's impact but I wouldn't call the Barr or Waynes picks bad by any means. KWill is a very high bar.
... It all worked out but I do still grimace when I remember us being on the clock and not making a pick though. Sad!
Just to clarify, in this thread the comparison starred out as KwIll light, as in similar, but not as good. Of course if we found a player that met KWills production that would be ecstatic. What I am saying is a top half of the first round should not be targeting a lesser version of a pretty good but not HOF, player. The bar should be expecting more, even if they don't work out, at least shoot for that higher bar instead of settling for " pretty good light"
Speaking of Kevin Williams....brings up a draft day memory. Was anybody else beyond pissed that we passed on Terrell Suggs that year? I know I was, but Williams turned out to be a great player for us for a very long time.
@"supafreak84" said: Speaking of Kevin Williams....brings up a draft day memory. Was anybody else beyond pissed that we passed on Terrell Suggs that year? I know I was, but Williams turned out to be a great player for us for a very long time.Well...I was certainly beyond pissed when we passed on EVERYONE at the #7 pick. And passed again. Has any other team EVER done that, just skipped their pick to save money??
I did like Suggs also. But I also thought we should pick DT Jimmy Kennedy from Penn State instead of Williams, so what do I know?
@"supafreak84" said: Speaking of Kevin Williams....brings up a draft day memory. Was anybody else beyond pissed that we passed on Terrell Suggs that year? I know I was, but Williams turned out to be a great player for us for a very long time.
Yep. I was so pissed. All worked out.
@"Jor-El" said:@"supafreak84" said: Speaking of Kevin Williams....brings up a draft day memory. Was anybody else beyond pissed that we passed on Terrell Suggs that year? I know I was, but Williams turned out to be a great player for us for a very long time. Well...I was certainly beyond pissed when we passed on EVERYONE at the #7 pick. And passed again. Has any other team EVER done that, just skipped their pick to save money??I did like Suggs also. But I also thought we should pick DT Jimmy Kennedy from Penn State instead of Williams, so what do I know?
Holler: 4/26 is Vikings' draft infamy
April 26 in Minnesota is a quiet day. Spring is putting its foot down that winter is over and it’s time for the state to transform from brown to green in a hurry after winter reared its final ugly head the previous week. It’s a day like a lot of spring days. You don’t see any disaster documentaries called 4/26. It doesn’t have a tragedy associated with it like Sept. 11 has taken on.
But, in terms of Vikings history, 4/26 is a day that will live in infamy. Twelve years ago today, a war room imploded. That war room was located in Eden Prairie, Minn., and the remnants of that debacle are both comic and tragic in hindsight. I, along with several of my media brethren, were at Ground Zero of this particular comic tragedy.
It all started with a great idea, which most epic failures tend to do. It ended with slack-jawed faces, international ridicule and one geriatric finger that said it all. The Vikings brass thought they were the smartest guys in the room in the days leading up to the 2003 draft. They knew what nobody else did – that defensive tackle Kevin Williams, who was consistently ranked as a mid to late pick in the first round (the 15-25 range), was going to be a star.
The Vikings best and brightest knew they wanted Williams. Sitting with the seventh pick, nobody was envisioning Williams going in that slot. All the attention was going to defensive tackles Dwayne Robertson and Johnathan Sullivan as being potential targets for the Vikings.
Nope. They wanted Big Kev.In the black ops of pre-draft shenanigans and dirty tricks, the Vikings were quietly shuttling prospects in and out of Winter Park under the cloak of secrecy. With one exception – Jimmy Kennedy.
Without warning, Mike Tice shows up to allow the media access to draft prospect Jimmy Kennedy. Full access. Ask away, boys.
That shocking transparency was deeply rooted in the subterfuge of pre-draft machinations. Don’t believe what you read and believe only half of what you see.
Years later, I got a chance to “dot the i’s” on that particular aspect of the 4/26 debacle.
Kennedy came to the Vikings five years later, in 2008, and the first chance I had to get him without snipers able to steal my claim, I cornered him and things got real for a conspiracy theorist.
Kennedy said he knew about 10 minutes after entering Winter Park that the Vikings had no intention of drafting him. He was so put off by the visit that he claimed anything he owned that was purple had to go. He hated the Vikings that much for making him the public pawn in their private chess game. When he was shuttled out to the media, he wasn’t Jimmy Kennedy. He was Red Herring.
No, the Vikings wanted Williams. But nobody could know. Then they got cute. Too cool for school.
So confident they would get Williams at No. 7, the brain wizards starting wondering how far could they trade back and still get Big Ticket?
At No. 7, it was a foregone conclusion that Carson Palmer was going No. 1. Andre Johnson was in the mix and Matt Millen was making a pick (goodbye, trivia answer Charles Rogers). Current Viking Terence Newman was strongly linked to Dallas at No. 5.
Byron Leftwich – a.k.a. Fat Albert – was the player that was the big question mark heading into the draft. Where would he go and what would his value be in the NFL? Two teams had designs on the pick – Jacksonville and Baltimore. The problem was that Jacksonville was at No. 8 and Baltimore was picking 10th.
The Vikings were at seventh and holding all the cards. Unfortunately, even in the war room, they had to hear the buzz of several thousand fans in the Winter Park Fieldhouse being whipped into a frenzy by Paul Allen, the Vikings play-by-play man on their radio network.
Allen thought the Vikings were going to take Arizona State man-beast Terrell Suggs– an edge rusher before the term was coined. He made his high-decibel case to a willing congregation. The chant “Suggs! Suggs! Suggs!” reverberated through the facility.
Meanwhile, the Vikings were furiously attempting to complete a trade with the Ravens to move from No. 7 to No. 10, allow Baltimore to take Leftwich and let Jacksonville and Carolina fend for themselves. The Vikings called in the move to the league office. Baltimore didn’t get it in before the 15-minute clock struck midnight.
When Commissioner Paul Tagliabue hit the podium, the field-house crowd silenced the “Suggs!” chants to hear Tags call out his name.“With the seventh pick of the 2003 draft, the Jacksonville Jaguars select Byron Leftwich, quarterback from Marshall.”
Time stopped for about three seconds. Wait. What? Within seconds, Carolina jumped in and selected offensive tackle Jordan Gross.
The Vikings, convinced the trade had gone through, hurriedly snapped up Williams before Baltimore came to the party. To put the exclamation point on the moment, Baltimore selected Suggs minutes before Tice came out to address the crowd.
Hindsight being 20/20, the best thing that could have happened for the Vikings actually did. They got their man. Thanks to the salary structure of rookie contracts, they got the guy they wanted for less money. It can be argued whether Suggs had the better career, but the brain trust at the Vikings had it right.
But, in the immediacy of news, the egg on the face became an epic fail. Tice approached the surly crowd ready without enough security to stop them. The dust-up turned into a happening.
Tice was greeted with a chorus of boos. He asked the mob to settle down – his audio clip of “OK, calm down. Calm down!” is still played today – and take it easy. They were having none of it.
https://247sports.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/Article/Holler-426-is-Vikings-draft-infamy-105207978/
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