$12mm cap space needed for 21?

Changes at the quarterback position created something of an inflection point with how the Vikings spend their money. They've often spent right up to the cap — a function of an ownership group that's spared little expense in pursuit of on-field success — but the larger cash spend (which began, as we mentioned above, in 2017) came right as the team's quarterback costs started to increase.
An effective QB on a rookie contract is one of the NFL's greatest cost efficiencies, given how expensive it is to acquire even an average quarterback on the open market. When the Vikings traded up to acquire Teddy Bridgewater with the last pick of the 2014 first round, they thought they'd have five years of cost-controlled quarterbacking, thanks to the fifth-year option they received as a result of taking Bridgewater in the first round. But when his left knee buckled on Aug. 30, 2016, it ended the Vikings' days of low quarterback costs several years early.
They traded for Sam Bradford four days later, adding $7 million of cap charges in 2016 and $18 million in 2017 to a team that was already starting to reward some of Spielman's more successful draft picks with second contracts. When the Vikings decided after the 2017 season they couldn't plan around long-term health with Bradford or Bridgewater (or around long-term consistency with Case Keenum), they spent big to add Cousins to a team that had reached the NFC title game two months earlier and was in win-now mode.
Cousins' shrewdly-designed contract sacrificed long-term security for short-term guarantees; the quarterback and agent Mike McCartney leveraged those guarantees on the way to another deal before last season that gave the Vikings $10 million of cap relief in exchange for a $30 million signing bonus.
Cousins' deal is fully guaranteed for 2021, and his 2022 salary ($35 million) would become guaranteed if he's on the roster by the third day of the 2021 league year. In effect, if he's still with the Vikings in March, he'll have locked in $150 million over six years in Minnesota, all of it fully guaranteed, while setting up a $45 million cap number for 2022 that could prompt talks on another extension.

Signing players like Cousins, Stefon Diggs and Dalvin Cook to competitive deals, though, has meant bigger bonuses that don't hit the cap all at once. That's why the Vikings' cap challenges in recent years — and the hurdles they'll face this year — aren't just related to their quarterback.
They gave Diggs a $15 million signing bonus as part of his five-year extension in 2018, and absorbed $9 million of dead money this year after trading him to Buffalo. The deals Xavier Rhodes and Linval Joseph signed before the 2017 season carried a combined $7.2 million of dead money this year, and releasing a player like tight end Kyle Rudolph this year would mean $4.35 million of dead money on the Vikings' 2021 cap.
Such a move would also mean a $5.1 million savings, since the Vikings wouldn't be paying Rudolph the rest of his salary for next year, but too much dead money would require them to fill out their roster with cheaper players. They carried more than $35 million of dead money on their 2020 books, before putting another $21.7 million worth of talent on injured reserve when Danielle Hunter and Anthony Barr were done for the season before the end of September.
The Vikings have been forced to fill essential positions like quarterback and left tackle on the open market, while paying key defenders and trying to retain a few luxuries (like Cook, who's playing with a $15.5 million signing bonus) that other teams might not attempt to keep. Unless they're able to restructure several contracts, or the league decides to keep the 2021 cap higher than expected, the Vikings will have to release some veterans by March while trying to improve a 7-9 team with little cap space.
They'll face a decision on Barr, whose release would carry $7.8 million of dead money but bring $7.062 million of cap savings. He's returning from a torn pectoral muscle, but the Vikings have tended to value him differently than other teams, both because of his role in their defense and the work he does before the snap, calling plays and getting defenders lined up. Keeping Barr, though, might mean parting with free agent Eric Wilson, and the Vikings might need to restructure his deal even if they do let Wilson go.
Hunter is returning from a torn pectoral muscle that interrupted his tantalizing trajectory (he'd become the fastest NFL player to 50 career sacks during his first four seasons). The deal he signed before the 2018 season has aged quickly, such that he's the 18th-highest paid edge rusher in the league, and there have been whispers this winter that Hunter's camp wasn't issuing an idle threat when it leaked to NFL Network in October he wanted to redo his deal; he could be using Joey Bosa's deal with the Chargers (worth an average of $27 million a year) as a benchmark. The Vikings likely couldn't get to that point without pushing some of Hunter's cap value into the future, and the defensive end isn't working from the best negotiating position after missing all of 2020, but a deal for Hunter could again test the Vikings' appetite for spending well over the cap.
They're not in as difficult a position as some of the teams they're chasing in the NFC. The Packers and Rams each have more than $200 million of cap liabilities on their 2021 books, and the Saints (who are at more than $290 million) would keep $22.65 million of dead money on their books even if Brees retires as expected. The fact that so many teams could face difficult cap constraints could create a list of attractive veterans forced to play at bargain rates in 2021; the Vikings might be able to take advantage of such a market to fill a spot or two.
The way they've built their roster, though, combines with an uncertain economic climate to put a damper on their years of almost uninterrupted building. They'll have a fresh set of financial hurdles to clear before free agency starts in less than two months.

I would not bet on the $180M cap number in 2021.

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/nfl-salary-cap-might-not-crash-after-all

One agent said the expectation is the cap for 2020 will at least remain steady. Another agent said he expected it to touch $200 million. Another was planning for $195 million.

The TV deals that are upcoming will be significant.  There are teams well over the cap that will not want to flat out cut some of their top players.  The players will not want to have to take massive cuts either since they could be out of the league when the TV money really kicks in.  It is not fair to the current players that the pandemic occurred.  It makes too much sense for them to spread out the cap loss over several years and not drop the cap too much from $198M.

I do not feel bad for the Wilfs at all.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-football-nfl-gb-nfl-revenues/report-nfl-teams-revenue-share-topped-8-billion-in-2017-idUSKBN1K719F

The team shared 8 billion in 2017-18 and each team got about $255M.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nfl/nfl-2018-19-revenue

The team shared 8.78 billion in 2018-19 and each team got about $274.3M.

https://www.sportico.com/leagues/football/2020/nfl-shared-revenue-2019-billion-packers-1234609285/

The team shared 9.5 billion in 2019-20 and each team got about $296M.

This revenue sharing money does not include gate receipts, etc.

Just depends on where the cap comes in. But $176 is a very pessimistic prediction.

Even still, it's not like the Vikings will have to sacrifice good young players in order to get under the cap. There's $12M just in Rudy and Shamar. Then there's Bailey's $2M. And if you need more you can look at restructures for Barr and Harry. And if you get really desperate, replacing Reiff with Cleveland at LT nets you another $12M. 

I tend to think the Vikings would like to keep Reiff, but if that cap comes in lower than $185 or so, he probably has to go. But y'know what? Vikings drafted Cleveland for a reason. 

There's also the nuclear option: There's $10M savings with zero dead in Harry's contract. I can't imagine we'd want to have to replace both of our starting safeties, but I agree with Zimmer's comment last year about too much money tied up in the safety position is wrong-headed roster construction. 

Zimmer has made comments in the past that the safety position is not one of the more important positions in his defensive scheme.

I think Kris Boyd, Harrison Hand or even Jeff Gladney would make better NFL safeties than NFL corners.

If Patrick Surtain or Caleb Farley fell to the Vikings at pick 14, I think Zimmer might be interested... Zim could move a corner or two back to safety and be ok.

Rudy has already said he won't restructure, so I thinks he is out the door (and easily replaceable). I hate to say this, but I think Zimmer can also replace our safeties without much stress.

I think Zimmer would keep Rieff, Shamar and Barr over Rudy and Harry.

I think Rudy and Harry would save the Vikings almost 20M in cap space.

@"Carl Knowles" said: Zimmer has made comments in the past that the safety position is not one of the more important positions in his defensive scheme.

I think Kris Boyd, Harrison Hand or even Jeff Gladney would make better NFL safeties than NFL corners.

If Patrick Surtain or Caleb Farley fell to the Vikings at pick 14, I think Zimmer might be interested... Zim could move a corner or two back to safety and be ok.

Rudy has already said he won't restructure, so I thinks he is out the door (and easily replaceable). I hate to say this, but I think Zimmer can also replace our safeties without much stress.

I think Zimmer would keep Rieff, Shamar and Barr over Rudy and Harry.

I think Rudy and Harry would save the Vikings almost 20M in cap space.

This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.

Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was? 

Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.

Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was? 

Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.

Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was? 

Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic. 

Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.

Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was? 

Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic. 

Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers. 

We been this team for the better part of 40 years.  Enough good pieces to think we are close,  but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the  "reloading"  just seems to have become a perpetual state.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.

Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was? 

Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic. 

Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers. 

We been this team for the better part of 40 years.  Enough good pieces to think we are close,  but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the  "reloading"  just seems to have become a perpetual state.

I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.

Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was? 

Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic. 

Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers. 

We been this team for the better part of 40 years.  Enough good pieces to think we are close,  but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the  "reloading"  just seems to have become a perpetual state.

I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly. 

no problems with any of them,  but I still dont know that we are that close,  especially considering what we will likely end up doing to our cap if they keep Cousins for this year and next... and then theirs the questions around Hunter.  Will he come back to form,  will he play for the money he is owed?

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.

Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was? 

Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic. 

Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers. 

We been this team for the better part of 40 years.  Enough good pieces to think we are close,  but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the  "reloading"  just seems to have become a perpetual state.

I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly. 

no problems with any of them,  but I still dont know that we are that close,  especially considering what we will likely end up doing to our cap if they keep Cousins for this year and next... and then theirs the questions around Hunter.  Will he come back to form,  will he play for the money he is owed?

Cousins cap hit is not a problem for '21. Vikings I think will rank 10th in money spent at QB. '22 is the year where they surge to 1st and it becomes a problem. But I doubt we pay all of that. He'll either be traded or extended. 

As far as Hunter goes, I don't know why he wouldn't return to form. I guess it's possible; anything's possible. Disk injuries are nothing to sneeze at, but he had the surgery that so many who have recurring disk problems choose to avoid.

And as far as his money goes, there's an argument that his missed year will make a hold out unlikely. Again, I can't recall any player who spent a year on IR and then held out the following year. It's not exactly high-pointing your value. But, hey, maybe that's an argument for doing it now (from the Vikings perspective). Even if we do extend him, his cap hit for '21 would likely stay the same or go down as we push money into future years, when players like Harry and Rudy and Reiff and maybe even Cousins are off the books. Hunter's definitely the kind of player you don't mind investing big future dollars to. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.

Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was? 

Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic. 

Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers. 

We been this team for the better part of 40 years.  Enough good pieces to think we are close,  but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the  "reloading"  just seems to have become a perpetual state.

I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly. 

no problems with any of them,  but I still dont know that we are that close,  especially considering what we will likely end up doing to our cap if they keep Cousins for this year and next... and then theirs the questions around Hunter.  Will he come back to form,  will he play for the money he is owed?

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss. 

I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt. 

The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.

For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years. 

Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.

This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.  

I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick.  Dont necessarily tank,  but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution,  get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process.  Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.

Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.

Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was? 

Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic. 

Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers. 

We been this team for the better part of 40 years.  Enough good pieces to think we are close,  but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the  "reloading"  just seems to have become a perpetual state.

I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly. 

no problems with any of them,  but I still dont know that we are that close,  especially considering what we will likely end up doing to our cap if they keep Cousins for this year and next... and then theirs the questions around Hunter.  Will he come back to form,  will he play for the money he is owed?

Cousins cap hit is not a problem for '21. Vikings I think will rank 10th in money spent at QB. '22 is the year where they surge to 1st and it becomes a problem. But I doubt we pay all of that. He'll either be traded or extended. 

As far as Hunter goes, I don't know why he wouldn't return to form. I guess it's possible; anything's possible. Disk injuries are nothing to sneeze at, but he had the surgery that so many who have recurring disk problems choose to avoid.

And as far as his money goes, there's an argument that his missed year will make a hold out unlikely. Again, I can't recall any player who spent a year on IR and then held out the following year. It's not exactly high-pointing your value. But, hey, maybe that's an argument for doing it now (from the Vikings perspective). Even if we do extend him, his cap hit for '21 would likely stay the same or go down as we push money into future years, when players like Harry and Rudy and Reiff and maybe even Cousins are off the books. Hunter's definitely the kind of player you don't mind investing big future dollars to.