Seems obvious Vikings are on the Cousins train

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said: Cousins is a top third QB. You don't just toss that aside for a roll at the craps table, potentially setting the franchise back years and wasting the primes of players like Cook, Jefferson, Hunter, etc.

Now, do you draft a QB to sit and learn for a year or two? Maybe, but I don't think you do it if an impact player who can help you win now is on the board. 

I'm not ragging on you, Maroon...  because what you say is logical in theory.  But I find it funny that all these issues with Cousins have seem to evaporated because people are just looking at his final stat line and overlooking how he performed against the good teams we played this season.

Except that's not what I'm doing. I'm basing this on what I saw, not final stat lines. I say top third because that's what I think. I have no idea where he ranks in terms of stats. I saw a QB who looked like shit early on against good teams and bad. I saw him play much better as the season wore on against good teams and bad. 

And I compare that to what i know the draft is: a complete crapshoot. So to me it comes down to odds. Are we more likely to win a super bowl next year with Cousins and a first round pass rusher or left guard? Or a young QB and none of the above? 

I say the former, because that QB, while he might be Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes, it's actually more likely he's Trubisky or Wentz or Rosen or Darnold or Winston or Mariota. The odds just aren't very good. 

No, as PF always says, you won't find out unless you try. But what is the cost of finding out? All the QBs listed above were taken top 10. We pick 14th. Unless we invest an enormous amount of draft capital, we won't be getting Lawrence, Wilson or Fields (who scares the hell outta me). I need more time on Lance and the rest give me a Ponderous feel. When we were 1-5 and it looked like we had a chance at a top 5 pick, I was all for it. Now THAT was a slam dunk. Top 5 pick? Cousins looking like crap? Got get a damn QB! But I changed my mind. As I start looking more into the 2nd tier QBs I could change it again. 

That's what I'm saying...  you changed your mind because he played better in the second half of the season.  Isn't that the definition of Cousins career?  Plays good for about half the season with some brutal stretches of bad play with a few average performances mixed in?

Just for clarity, Cousins salary is $28M next season, ranking 12th in the league.  It’s pretty average at this point and manageable.  There are plenty of other areas money is being worse spent on this team.  

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Chuckf" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress. 

We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.  

We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.

Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level. 

Pretty obvious wha what wrong with the defense isn't it?  All three starting CBs gone: Waynes, Rhodes, Alexander (yes I consider NB/slot corner a starter) then 3/4ths of starting Defensive line gone:  Griffen, Joseph to FA, and Hunter to injury.   Then to add insult to injury the big FA signing of Pierce blows up as he opts out due to COVID and his asthma and Barr tears a pectoral muscle in first game of season.   Then Kendricks is gone the last 5 games due to injury.   Mike Hughes gets hurt early also gone for season and Holton Hill as well.   On top of all this yes the Vikings were going with the youth movement transition and COVID hits and no OTAs, truncated training camps and NO PRESEASON games.   That's a killer for a team planning on going with a lot of young players and rookies on defense.

The original question/answer is obvious, the fix it question is the harder one.  Do our baby DB's get better next year?  Do you move on from Barr and/or Smith?  Do Pierce and Hunter come back?  Lots and lots of questions that our D guru coach needs to get figured out.  If he can even improve our D to middle of the pack or even into the top 1/3rd we're a playoff team again. 

@"Chuckf" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Chuckf" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress. 

We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.  

We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.

Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level. 

Pretty obvious wha what wrong with the defense isn't it?  All three starting CBs gone: Waynes, Rhodes, Alexander (yes I consider NB/slot corner a starter) then 3/4ths of starting Defensive line gone:  Griffen, Joseph to FA, and Hunter to injury.   Then to add insult to injury the big FA signing of Pierce blows up as he opts out due to COVID and his asthma and Barr tears a pectoral muscle in first game of season.   Then Kendricks is gone the last 5 games due to injury.   Mike Hughes gets hurt early also gone for season and Holton Hill as well.   On top of all this yes the Vikings were going with the youth movement transition and COVID hits and no OTAs, truncated training camps and NO PRESEASON games.   That's a killer for a team planning on going with a lot of young players and rookies on defense.

The original question/answer is obvious, the fix it question is the harder one.  Do our baby DB's get better next year?  Do you move on from Barr and/or Smith?  Do Pierce and Hunter come back?  Lots and lots of questions that our D guru coach needs to get figured out.  If he can even improve our D to middle of the pack or even into the top 1/3rd we're a playoff team again. 

I would say the baby DBs had better get better next year or 2021 will be a lost season regardless.  I don't think they move on from Barr and Pierce and Hunter will return, Smith will have to take a paycut or go elsewhere which I don't like.  Now I hear Kubiak has retired, so now the offense is in flux as well.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Chuckf" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Chuckf" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress. 

We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.  

We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.

Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level. 

Pretty obvious wha what wrong with the defense isn't it?  All three starting CBs gone: Waynes, Rhodes, Alexander (yes I consider NB/slot corner a starter) then 3/4ths of starting Defensive line gone:  Griffen, Joseph to FA, and Hunter to injury.   Then to add insult to injury the big FA signing of Pierce blows up as he opts out due to COVID and his asthma and Barr tears a pectoral muscle in first game of season.   Then Kendricks is gone the last 5 games due to injury.   Mike Hughes gets hurt early also gone for season and Holton Hill as well.   On top of all this yes the Vikings were going with the youth movement transition and COVID hits and no OTAs, truncated training camps and NO PRESEASON games.   That's a killer for a team planning on going with a lot of young players and rookies on defense.

The original question/answer is obvious, the fix it question is the harder one.  Do our baby DB's get better next year?  Do you move on from Barr and/or Smith?  Do Pierce and Hunter come back?  Lots and lots of questions that our D guru coach needs to get figured out.  If he can even improve our D to middle of the pack or even into the top 1/3rd we're a playoff team again. 

I would say the baby DBs had better get better next year or 2021 will be a lost season regardless.  I don't think they move on from Barr and Pierce and Hunter will return, Smith will have to take a paycut or go elsewhere which I don't like.  Now I hear Kubiak has retired, so now the offense is in flux as well.

I promote young Kubes and keep the same offense. 

@"Purplewhizz" said: Just for clarity, Cousins salary is $28M next season, ranking 12th in the league.  It’s pretty average at this point and manageable.  There are plenty of other areas money is being worse spent on this team.  

The problem isn't his 2021 salary - it's his 2022 contract, where he is #1 in both salary ($35M) and especially cap hit ($45M). 

But worst of all: his 2022 is guaranteed unless we cut him before the 2021 season (before the draft even). That's what's so tragic about the extension he was given - we have to "buy" him for the next 2 seasons, not just 1.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Purplewhizz" said: Just for clarity, Cousins salary is $28M next season, ranking 12th in the league.  It’s pretty average at this point and manageable.  There are plenty of other areas money is being worse spent on this team.  

I completely agree that there are other areas where spending is worse here, and Cousins's 2021 salary is manageable and justifiable in the NFL salary ecosystem.

The problem isn't his 2021 salary - it's his 2022 contract, where he is #1 in both salary ($35M) and especially cap hit ($45M). 

But worst of all: his 2022 is guaranteed unless we cut him before the 2021 season (before the draft even). That's what's so tragic about the extension he was given - we have to "buy" him for the next 2 seasons, not just 1.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Purplewhizz" said: Just for clarity, Cousins salary is $28M next season, ranking 12th in the league.  It’s pretty average at this point and manageable.  There are plenty of other areas money is being worse spent on this team.  

I completely agree that there are other areas where spending is worse here, and Cousins's 2021 salary is manageable and justifiable in the NFL salary ecosystem.

The problem isn't his 2021 salary - it's his 2022 contract, where he is #1 in both salary ($35M) and especially cap hit ($45M). 

But worst of all: his 2022 is guaranteed unless we cut him before the 2021 season (before the draft even). That's what's so tragic about the extension he was given - we have to "buy" him for the next 2 seasons, not just 1.

I've been preaching this since summer and it doesnt seem to sink in for many,  if they stay with him for 21, it could seriously affect what we can do in 2022 as well since we dont know where revenue will be this coming season and how that will affect the 2022 cap.   I know I was hearing last night that major concert organizers arent booking any bands for large venues at least through the summer and taking a wait and see approach on fall dates.  

@"Jor-El" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Purplewhizz" said: Just for clarity, Cousins salary is $28M next season, ranking 12th in the league.  It’s pretty average at this point and manageable.  There are plenty of other areas money is being worse spent on this team.  

I completely agree that there are other areas where spending is worse here, and Cousins's 2021 salary is manageable and justifiable in the NFL salary ecosystem.

The problem isn't his 2021 salary - it's his 2022 contract, where he is #1 in both salary ($35M) and especially cap hit ($45M). 

But worst of all: his 2022 is guaranteed unless we cut him before the 2021 season (before the draft even). That's what's so tragic about the extension he was given - we have to "buy" him for the next 2 seasons, not just 1.

I've been preaching this since summer and it doesnt seem to sink in for many,  if they stay with him for 21, it could seriously affect what we can do in 2022 as well since we dont know where revenue will be this coming season and how that will affect the 2022 cap.   I know I was hearing last night that major concert organizers arent booking any bands for large venues at least through the summer and taking a wait and see approach on fall dates.  

You're probably the one who got it through my head, Jimmy.

It always seemed like some kind of poison pill, but I don't really know why. TBH I think the intent was to "almost" completely guarantee the entire contract - without generating the attention that came with completely guaranteeing his entire contract when we signed him in 2018.

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress. 

We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.  

We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.

Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level. 

@"pattersaur" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Purplewhizz" said: Just for clarity, Cousins salary is $28M next season, ranking 12th in the league.  It’s pretty average at this point and manageable.  There are plenty of other areas money is being worse spent on this team.  

I completely agree that there are other areas where spending is worse here, and Cousins's 2021 salary is manageable and justifiable in the NFL salary ecosystem.

The problem isn't his 2021 salary - it's his 2022 contract, where he is #1 in both salary ($35M) and especially cap hit ($45M). 

But worst of all: his 2022 is guaranteed unless we cut him before the 2021 season (before the draft even). That's what's so tragic about the extension he was given - we have to "buy" him for the next 2 seasons, not just 1.

I've been preaching this since summer and it doesnt seem to sink in for many,  if they stay with him for 21, it could seriously affect what we can do in 2022 as well since we dont know where revenue will be this coming season and how that will affect the 2022 cap.   I know I was hearing last night that major concert organizers arent booking any bands for large venues at least through the summer and taking a wait and see approach on fall dates.  

You're probably the one who got it through my head, Jimmy.

It always seemed like some kind of poison pill, but I don't really know why. TBH I think the intent was to "almost" completely guarantee the entire contract - without generating the attention that came with completely guaranteeing his entire contract when we signed him in 2018.

Don't worry, a quick restructure after 2021 and then we're only tied to Cousins through 2025. While we're at it let's lock up Mannion too.

@"StickyBun" said: I'd love to see the team draft a QB in this Draft, I just don't know if it'll happen.

What I keep trying to stress in numerous posts is we need a change in strategy and thinking from the Top down.  This draft looks to be different at QB.  I am 99% of the time in favor of moving around a little to get our guy or getting lucky like Eagles taking Reagor over JJeff.  I think Spelly is a very good drafter and an above average GM as a whole. 

But again, the opportunity of 5+ potential first round quarterbacks in combination of us picking 14th does not happen when we want or need a QB.  We all knew the year we picked Ponder and Bridge that we "needed" a QB and were going to draft one very high.  That strategy/approach alone is of need/have to, no matter if that particular draft has a stud QB we would have rated even if we didn't need one.  It is a supply and demand game at QB.  We all know the draft is a complete crapshoot and we can list players who have been selected at number 1 to 32 that were complete busts.  I am a proponent of taking "our" best evaluated player 99% of the time.  But QB is different in this class - IMO.  The supply is there and that depends on our brass of Spelly/Zimm etc to seriously being open to drafting one of those top QB's if they evaluate worthy of pick 5-13 then move the F'up for him.  But I am about 95% sure that we won't because of the 2 year Cousins window/contract approach.

So IMO we have two approaches: 
1 - New thinking and probably new personnel (GM/HC) who approach this draft differently at the QB position because this QB draft is different (again, in my strong opinion)
2 -Same old same old because Spelly/Zimmer are committed to being right over the next two seasons.

So in 2 years when we desperately need a QB we will "hope" that their will be a supply but most likely we will do the desperation reach or sign a Matt Cassel, Bradford, Freeman, McNair, Keenum etc.  

@"mblack" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress. 

We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.  

We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.

Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level. 

In as much as I agree with you, stats don't tell the full story. There are at least two games we lost because we could not convert a first down (the Seattle one still stinks). The offense is good but not reliable/consistent. Consistency is what I think we need on offense. The numerous 3 and outs or inability to get first downs in critical moments were very frustrating.

@"mblack" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress. 

We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.  

We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.

Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level. 

In as much as I agree with you, stats don't tell the full story. There are at least two games we lost because we could not convert a first down (the Seattle one still stinks). The offense is good but not reliable/consistent. Consistency is what I think we need on offense. The numerous 3 and outs or inability to get first downs in critical moments were very frustrating.

@"minny65" said:

@"StickyBun" said: I'd love to see the team draft a QB in this Draft, I just don't know if it'll happen.

If you mean in the third round or beyond then maybe we draft a QB. The current Spelly/Zimmer regime thinks we have a window for a SB run in the next 2 years with Cousins contract, I don't.

What I keep trying to stress in numerous posts is we need a change in strategy and thinking from the Top down.  This draft looks to be different at QB.  I am 99% of the time in favor of moving around a little to get our guy or getting lucky like Eagles taking Reagor over JJeff.  I think Spelly is a very good drafter and an above average GM as a whole. 

But again, the opportunity of 5+ potential first round quarterbacks in combination of us picking 14th does not happen when we want or need a QB.  We all knew the year we picked Ponder and Bridge that we "needed" a QB and were going to draft one very high.  That strategy/approach alone is of need/have to, no matter if that particular draft has a stud QB we would have rated even if we didn't need one.  It is a supply and demand game at QB.  We all know the draft is a complete crapshoot and we can list players who have been selected at number 1 to 32 that were complete busts.  I am a proponent of taking "our" best evaluated player 99% of the time.  But QB is different in this class - IMO.  The supply is there and that depends on our brass of Spelly/Zimm etc to seriously being open to drafting one of those top QB's if they evaluate worthy of pick 5-13 then move the F'up for him.  But I am about 95% sure that we won't because of the 2 year Cousins window/contract approach.

So IMO we have two approaches: 
1 - New thinking and probably new personnel (GM/HC) who approach this draft differently at the QB position because this QB draft is different (again, in my strong opinion)
2 -Same old same old because Spelly/Zimmer are committed to being right over the next two seasons.

So in 2 years when we desperately need a QB we will "hope" that their will be a supply but most likely we will do the desperation reach or sign a Matt Cassel, Bradford, Freeman, McNair, Keenum etc.  

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"mblack" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress. 

We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.  

We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.

Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level. 

In as much as I agree with you, stats don't tell the full story. There are at least two games we lost because we could not convert a first down (the Seattle one still stinks). The offense is good but not reliable/consistent. Consistency is what I think we need on offense. The numerous 3 and outs or inability to get first downs in critical moments were very frustrating.

their inability to get 1 yard when the defense knew that was what we were going for and yet they still would try and run up the middle... holy shit that was maddening to watch all year.

@"purplefaithful" said: GB should have helped Rogers with a WR this past draft. Instead they had conviction on a QB and took Love. Wont help them a bit this year, or next. Time will tell if that was a good move or not. But they had the conviction to do it. 

All that said, we're certainly not GB....

I'll parrot myself and say if the front office has conviction on a kid @ QB, I hope they pull the trigger. They will have a lot of improvement alone through getting 3 FOUR heavy hitters back on D,  getting rid of Malouf and baby corners having a year under their belts. 

@"mblack" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress. 

We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.  

We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.

Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level. 

In as much as I agree with you, stats don't tell the full story. There are at least two games we lost because we could not convert a first down (the Seattle one still stinks). The offense is good but not reliable/consistent. Consistency is what I think we need on offense. The numerous 3 and outs or inability to get first downs in critical moments were very frustrating.

@"Hawkvike25" said:

@"mblack" said:

@"AGRforever" said:

@"Vikergirl" said: If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress. 

We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.  

We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.

Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level. 

In as much as I agree with you, stats don't tell the full story. There are at least two games we lost because we could not convert a first down (the Seattle one still stinks). The offense is good but not reliable/consistent. Consistency is what I think we need on offense. The numerous 3 and outs or inability to get first downs in critical moments were very frustrating.

Ah yes, the game that our defense gave up 27 second half points and we lost. Or maybe there is something different the offense or kirk could have done vs the Titans when they scored 22 second half points, including a 55 yarder with 1:44 left in the game. 

Kirk isnt perfect and can certainly be frustrating at times, but stop making him the scapegoat. Broken record around here

Everyone knows that his cap hit in 2021 is 31 mil and in 2022 it is 45 mil.
Everyone knows that the 2022 salary is guaranteed on the 3rd day of the new league year sometime in March.

One option the Vikings could take is to extend him again beyond 2022 when he will be 35 years old.
I do not like this option.  I think he would be our own Matt Ryan.  No thanks.

Another option is to draft a young QB to groom and let Cousins contract play out.
I like this option especially the first part.

I think that the Vikings have to look at the 2022 Draft and see which QBs may be coming out.
I see names like Sam Howell, Kedon Slovis, Tyler Shough, Sean Clifford, and maybe some others.  Not very good looking.

If they want to get one to groom, and they should, then this is the year to take a shot.

Cousins contract may seem like it is untradeable.  I think they can trade him after the 2021 season.
You may ask what team would want to pay him 35 mil for one season?  Good question and I have no idea.
If the Vikings would redo his deal and pay him a 10 mil roster bonus and then trade him to a team, then that team only would have to pay him 25 mil for one season.
This would cost the Vikings 20 mil in dead money but save them 25 mil in cap space.
I like this idea.

Maybe the Vikings will pull an Osweiler and include a pick to a team to take Cousins off their hands?

Removing the no trade clause was very wise.
Guaranteeing the 3rd season early is the trade off but I believe he could still be moved.

I could be wrong but I do not see him getting a whole heck of a lot better at age 35.

I have seen him drop back and get pressured and then just continue to go backwards (usually to his right) way too many times.
I have seen him fold up like a turtle way too many times.

I want to see someone who can make something happen when things go awry.

Careful what I wish for eh?