What to do with Cousins

@"pattersaur" said:

@"Zanary" said: Folks, our conservative-as-f**k head coach, our line, and our patchwork defense are far bigger obstacles than Cousins is.

I agree these are all obstacles the Vikings have. But teams with conservative head coaches, or bad OL's, or patchwork defenses, win Super Bowls more often than teams without elite QBs.

And when Zimmer  HC did go non-conservative  and ran a zone blitz Ogendeigho got matched up against a RB- for 41 yard TD- ...

I'm actually thinking that Cousins could improve, if given the sort of "build around" philosophy that have worked for the elite NFL QBs...and I think it could be the kind of personality situation that could provide some of the "lift" we want.

I really don't know that Rodgers provides that, he enjoys more pocket time than most QBs and has a long-standing hand in the offense.  That pays dividends, many of which I think get overlooked.

I'm not saying to NOT take a great young QB if one falls to us...I'm just saying, I think we are kind of conditioned to look at "next" after so many years of disappointment.  If our offensive skill player core can continue to develop together, we may not be wishing for much in that department.

I think I just changed my mind about Cousins and drafting a QB this spring. I think we might be better off sticking with him through his current contract-- and I say that both from a cap perspective and an Xs and O's perspective. I just don't know how you move on a QB who can play this well, which he does more often than not... and then roll the dice on a rookie that may or may not even be able to play in the NFL. Sure, if we had a chance at one of the top two or three QBs, I might think differently, but I just don't see how that's possible.

If we don't deal our picks to move up and draft a QB, we will have a ton of picks to fortify this roster. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind again. 

@"MaroonBells" said: I think I just changed my mind about Cousins and drafting a QB this spring. I think we might be better off sticking with him through his current contract-- and I say that both from a cap perspective and an Xs and O's perspective. I just don't know how you move on a QB who can play this well, which he does more often than not... and then roll the dice on a rookie that may or may not even be able to play in the NFL. Sure, if we had a chance at one of the top two or three QBs, I might think differently, but I just don't see how that's possible.

If we don't deal our picks to move up and draft a QB, we will have a ton of picks to fortify this roster. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind again.
 

@"MaroonBells" said: I think I just changed my mind about Cousins and drafting a QB this spring. I think we might be better off sticking with him through his current contract-- and I say that both from a cap perspective and an Xs and O's perspective. I just don't know how you move on a QB who can play this well, which he does more often than not... and then roll the dice on a rookie that may or may not even be able to play in the NFL. Sure, if we had a chance at one of the top two or three QBs, I might think differently, but I just don't see how that's possible.

If we don't deal our picks to move up and draft a QB, we will have a ton of picks to fortify this roster. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind again. 

 

To me, it's just not financially feasible to move on from Cousins until 2022. Build an ol around him so we can maximize the weapons we have. D should be better with the return of Hunter and Pierce plus the maturation of the secondary.

@"BarrNone55" said: To me, it's just not financially feasible to move on from Cousins until 2022. Build an ol around him so we can maximize the weapons we have. D should be better with the return of Hunter and Pierce plus the maturation of the secondary.

@"MaroonBells" said: I think I just changed my mind about Cousins and drafting a QB this spring. I think we might be better off sticking with him through his current contract-- and I say that both from a cap perspective and an Xs and O's perspective. I just don't know how you move on a QB who can play this well, which he does more often than not... and then roll the dice on a rookie that may or may not even be able to play in the NFL. Sure, if we had a chance at one of the top two or three QBs, I might think differently, but I just don't see how that's possible.

If we don't deal our picks to move up and draft a QB, we will have a ton of picks to fortify this roster. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind again. 

 

Teams almost never take this kind of gamble....where the potential for egg on face is too great in a scenario where we release or trade him, he goes on to play exactly like he's always played (sometimes bad, but sometimes great)...and we're stuck with a QB that might be Burrow or Herbert, but might also be Trubisky, Winston or Mariota...or Rosen, Bortles or Manuel...or RGIII or Ponder, Locker, Gabbert. Even QBs who've looked good, like Burrow and Herbert--well, it wasn't long ago that Wentz and Goff looked like the next big thing...and now they don't. 

If you look at the odds, they're just not super great. 

"Carl Knowles" said: @Both Jimmy G and Cousins have no trade clauses. With that said, both QBs would probably agree to trades if Jimmy went back to the Patriots and Cousins went to 49ers. For a trade to happen, I think it's pretty important for Cousins to play well the rest of the season, and at the same time, the Vikings also need to stay ahead of the 49ers and Patriots in the 2021 draft order (lose more games without it being Cousin's fault).  

The only trade scenario that IMO could happen would probably only involve those two teams??  So, the Patriots would need to go after Jimmy G pretty strongly after the season ends??

Contracts numbers can always be reworked if the players and teams involved want to dance and put pen to paper. So I don't have any issues with how Arif packages it. Arif's article, I think, was written before the trade deadline (and of course nobody wanted him then),.. but then again, the 49ers and Patriots looked much more comfortable with their QBs situation then they do now.

With that said, I still wouldn't hold my breath on Vikings trading Cousins this offseason. Spielman and Zimmer will both need to win now in 2021 to save their jobs. 

@"nawlinsvike" said:

"Carl Knowles" said: @Both Jimmy G and Cousins have no trade clauses. With that said, both QBs would probably agree to trades if Jimmy went back to the Patriots and Cousins went to 49ers. For a trade to happen, I think it's pretty important for Cousins to play well the rest of the season, and at the same time, the Vikings also need to stay ahead of the 49ers and Patriots in the 2021 draft order (lose more games without it being Cousin's fault).  

The only trade scenario that IMO could happen would probably only involve those two teams??  So, the Patriots would need to go after Jimmy G pretty strongly after the season ends??

Contracts numbers can always be reworked if the players and teams involved want to dance and put pen to paper. So I don't have any issues with how Arif packages it. Arif's article, I think, was written before the trade deadline (and of course nobody wanted him then),.. but then again, the 49ers and Patriots looked much more comfortable with their QBs situation then they do now.

With that said, I still wouldn't hold my breath on Vikings trading Cousins this offseason. Spielman and Zimmer will both need to win now in 2021 to save their jobs. 

I'm pretty sure that they removed the no trade clause this offseason when they extended him. 

@"MaroonBells" said: In the sidebar is a story about our options with Cousins. They quote Arif, who probably knows more about this stuff than anyone. He sums it up... “It’s a contract that the only realistic out is to trade and the only realistic year to trade is next year. If they trade him next year it can be sold as a two-year, $28-million-per-year contract to the acquiring team. Even with his shortcomings, that would be considered pretty reasonable. That would leave the Vikings with a more manageable $20 million in dead money in 2021 and none in 2022. If they wait a year, I’m not sure any team would want a one-year flier for $35 million for Cousins unless he came off a great year.” It sounds to me like the Vikings have two options... 1. Trade Cousins this offseason described above. 2-year, $28M contract to acquiring team would be a bargain. Vikings swallow $20M dead, but none in '22. Vikings draft QB high or trade for one (Darnold?). 2. Rework contract again. What would Vikings get in return for Cousins? There have been many veteran QB trades in the NFL (Brad Johnson, Bledsoe, Cutler, Trent Green, etc), but the one that seems most similar to me is when the Bengals traded Carson Palmer at age 31 to the Raiders (Cousins is 32). Bengals got a middle 1st and a conditional, which became a 2nd.  It would be wishful thinking to expect a 1st for Cousins, but it wouldn't be too far off. Who would want him? 49ers? Shanahan loves him and was said to be in "mourning" when 49ers traded for Jimmy G. Broncos, Colts, Bears, Jags, Washington...no shortage of teams who need a QB.  Pretty certain the Vikings would get at least a 2nd rounder for Cousins, probably more. Which, together with three 3rds, three 4ths and three 5ths, Vikings should have plenty of ammo to maneuver into a QB. 

Interesting comp to Carson Palmer, but I don't see it matching. Palmer was a #1 overall pick, seen as acceptably successful in Cincinatti despite a terrible team around him; Cousins overachieved his draft position and has had better supporting casts. Also, at the time of that trade (2011) the NFL still overwhelmingly believed in pocket QBs with limited mobility, and that is no longer the case.
I truly think Cousins is comparable to Andy Dalton, and the comp will be even closer if the Vikings give up on him: a priority BACKUP with a nice resume of experience that can run a team competently if their starter gets hurt for even a significant stretch of a season - but past the point when any coach is going to bet his job on believing the team should be trusted to him. Teams are going to expect they can find guys like Dalton/Cousins/Bridgewater next year that fit that description, without giving up any draft picks.
Now, if I am wrong and the 49ers want to part with something to take Cousins and his contract, that would be great. But I truly think Spielman has no intention of parting with him - his take will be that this season was a set of extreme circumstances, next year will be all different,etc. Spielman would have to tell the Wilfs, "Hey I gave Cousins a big 3-year extension just last March but I want to dump him and we'll still have to pay half his salary. Oh and I want you to trust me to pick a new QB and start a new multi-year rebuild." Do you think they would buy that?

@"Jor-El" said:

@"MaroonBells" said: In the sidebar is a story about our options with Cousins. They quote Arif, who probably knows more about this stuff than anyone. He sums it up... “It’s a contract that the only realistic out is to trade and the only realistic year to trade is next year. If they trade him next year it can be sold as a two-year, $28-million-per-year contract to the acquiring team. Even with his shortcomings, that would be considered pretty reasonable. That would leave the Vikings with a more manageable $20 million in dead money in 2021 and none in 2022. If they wait a year, I’m not sure any team would want a one-year flier for $35 million for Cousins unless he came off a great year.” It sounds to me like the Vikings have two options... 1. Trade Cousins this offseason described above. 2-year, $28M contract to acquiring team would be a bargain. Vikings swallow $20M dead, but none in '22. Vikings draft QB high or trade for one (Darnold?). 2. Rework contract again. What would Vikings get in return for Cousins? There have been many veteran QB trades in the NFL (Brad Johnson, Bledsoe, Cutler, Trent Green, etc), but the one that seems most similar to me is when the Bengals traded Carson Palmer at age 31 to the Raiders (Cousins is 32). Bengals got a middle 1st and a conditional, which became a 2nd.  It would be wishful thinking to expect a 1st for Cousins, but it wouldn't be too far off. Who would want him? 49ers? Shanahan loves him and was said to be in "mourning" when 49ers traded for Jimmy G. Broncos, Colts, Bears, Jags, Washington...no shortage of teams who need a QB.  Pretty certain the Vikings would get at least a 2nd rounder for Cousins, probably more. Which, together with three 3rds, three 4ths and three 5ths, Vikings should have plenty of ammo to maneuver into a QB. 

Interesting comp to Carson Palmer, but I don't see it matching. Palmer was a #1 overall pick, seen as acceptably successful in Cincinatti despite a terrible team around him; Cousins overachieved his draft position and has had better supporting casts. Also, at the time of that trade (2011) the NFL still overwhelmingly believed in pocket QBs with limited mobility, and that is no longer the case.
I truly think Cousins is comparable to Andy Dalton, and the comp will be even closer if the Vikings give up on him: a priority BACKUP with a nice resume of experience that can run a team competently if their starter gets hurt for even a significant stretch of a season - but past the point when any coach is going to bet his job on believing the team should be trusted to him. Teams are going to expect they can find guys like Dalton/Cousins/Bridgewater next year that fit that description, without giving up any draft picks.
Now, if I am wrong and the 49ers want to part with something to take Cousins and his contract, that would be great. But I truly think Spielman has no intention of parting with him - his take will be that this season was a set of extreme circumstances, next year will be all different,etc. Spielman would have to tell the Wilfs, "Hey I gave Cousins a big 3-year extension just last March but I want to dump him and we'll still have to pay half his salary. Oh and I want you to trust me to pick a new QB and start a new multi-year rebuild." Do you think they would buy that?

The problem I see is if we say, ok, 2 more years of Kirk... then after next season it will be man, we gotta restructure his deal... let's extend him to save on the cap... then he's signed for another 3 years and none of us can ever get off the carousel.
Rip the bandaid off and get out of that contract now, IMO. But like others I reserve the right to change my mind, though I don't think that will happen.

@"pattersaur" said:

The problem I see is if we say, ok, 2 more years of Kirk... then after next season it will be man, we gotta restructure his deal... let's extend him to save on the cap... then he's signed for another 3 years and none of us can ever get off the carousel. Rip the bandaid off and get out of that contract now, IMO. But like others I reserve the right to change my mind, though I don't think that will happen.

The contract goes up small next year (7th ish) and big the following year (1st) but I doubt we'll pay that. And even if we do, that's just the QB market. It's not like it's prevented us from paying and keeping players we really wanted to keep... like Dalvin, Thielen, Hunter, Kendricks, etc. 

I know everyone wants that Super Bowl winning QB on his rookie contract, but we also need to be realistic. It's rare. In the last 20 years, I can only think of two. And now their contracts make Cousins' look like chump change. 

Whether we move on from Cousins or not should be soley based on his performance. That looks good right now. But we'll see how it ends...

If you want to stay with two more years of mediocrity and the frustration of a QB who sometimes plays to his potential, but more often wilts under any kind of pressure then you can keep him, but if you want to take the chance as KC did when they make the decision to move on from Alex Smith and move up in the draft to take a potential franchise QB who led them to a Super Bowl, then you go that route.  We pretty much know how this is going to go and we have two more years of the roller coaster Kirk Cousins ride, which is most likely going to end each season on the down slope.  

I agree with both of your arguments/thoughts and land right in the middle - Solomon :)

MaroonBells - those are the numbers I have been saying and really are not as bad as they look when compared around the NFL for QB's.  I looked up the numbers last week and next season Cousins will be I think the 14th highest paid player with guys like Tannehill, Garropolo, ahead of him.  The following year he shoots up into the Top but at that time other QB's will get new contracts and I suspect Cousins will be back into the low teens.  That all said, the biggest issue with Cousins contract is that we are locked into a huge 2022 number the first day of the season in 2021.  That puts us into a pickle.  

So to JR44 point - As an a former accounting degree graduate I put it in terms of "sunk" vs "opportunity" cost.  Cousins contract is a "sunk" cost that we can't get out of.  So we really shouldn't allow ourselves to consider our already sunk coast to affect our "opportunity" cost.  The opportunity is to draft and even move up for a QB like Wilson (if our brass agrees) then I think we should bust a move and not miss the chance to be in range to make such a move.  I think the Chiefs went from 27 to 10 (Bills) for Mahomes?  They gave up a lot but they didn't want to miss the opportunity and had that conviction in his talent.   

I also want to look at "total" cost.  So you look at the position cost of our QB's not just the one player like Cousins.  A rookie (Wilson) will have a lower salary for the first few years and in 2 years after Cousins contract could possibly be a bargain for a couple.  When you add the total positional spending it won't be as glaring as just Cousins will be in 2022.  Also, If Wilson looks ready start year one then start him it has no bearing on the sunk cost of Cousins.  

Spelly has to have conviction for one of the Top QB's of course and he/they might not have that this year.  But I really hope that they find that conviction where nothing will stop them like the Chiefs.  They might be thinking short term because we are that typical Viking team that land us in the 20's draft range this year, as well as, next year.  But if this year we end up in the low teens and love one of those QB's I am going to be pissed and we missed a huge opportunity.

Just my opinion.

Which is more likely: finding the next Mahomes or the next Trubisky?

The Cousins contract situation is such a broken record at this point. I understand the purpose of message boards is to discuss topics like these but can we wait until after the season is done and we need to make a decision before the deadline hits with his fully guaranteed salary for that year? He's not getting traded during the season, let's let it rest for a bit.

@"BarrNone55" said: Which is more likely: finding the next Mahomes or the next Trubisky?