One Young, One Old?

Changes at CB seem inevitable.  And it's hard to predict what the Vikings will do.

All the changes coming makes  the resigning of Harris is imperative. 

Having    Harris and Smith with new CB's would help a lot  IMO.

It'd help  reduce mistakes and speed up  the learning curve of the new players.

Harris is a must, IMO. First is the safety net at the back end for what will likely be a combination of new and rookie players. Second is the Zone factor. If Mike continues to favor Zone having 2 great Safeties really helps. 

He wasn't calling a lot of Cover 3 as opposed to quarters coverage but that would be an option to consider without any bona fide Press Man Cover guys.

The Ravens used it and had Ed Reed. The Legion of Boom had Thomas and Chancellor. The 9ers have Tartt and Ward. Cover 3 has a track record. One way to exploit it is with passes to the flats and shallow crosses but the Vikings are the best at preventing YAC. And Zimmer hates giving up chunk plays almost as much as losing. Cover 3 is designed to do that.

Retaining Harris and continuing the transition to more Zone-based coverages is much easier to accomplish than finding another sticky Man Coverage CB like Rhodes used to be and having a speedy developing kid like Waynes was. 

I'd go as far as arguing that keeping Anthony and signing one veteran Corner would result in a better performance next season from the Secondary if they stay Zone-based than re-signing any of the Free Agents or using the 1st on one.  HOT TAKE!

You keep promoting two ideas:

1.  We can drop in a couple of rookie/FA CBs to do well in Zimmer's scheme
2. Ant Harris is irreplaceable

So I'll keep saying the same counters:

1. Players need time to learn to play for Zimmer - rookie CBs especially, and most defensive FAs we brought in (Michael Griffin, Captain Munnerlyn, Datone Jones, Emmanuel Lamur, Trevor Mays, George Iloka, Sheldon Richardson) flopped or needed at least a year to learn. Even Linvalle was just ok his first season here.
2. Zimmer loves Harrison Smith more than any other player, and he will put almost anyone next to him. Sendejo is back and he can live with him there and train a rookie.

As you know, I put those 2 together and think we will wave buh-bye to Harris if any other team offers him a big contract. I really don't see the Vikings, who did not offer Harris a long-term deal last offseason when they could have had him cheaply, deciding to "buy high" and sign him when his value is highest after a career year. I do see Zimmer seeing Alexander and Waynes as the only FA corners who already know his system and arguing hard to keep them. Spielman doesn't want to pick another DB in the first, and Zim is probably going to push his "all we need is a disruptive 3T to make this defense great" argument and probably get someone like Ross Blacklock.

I don't think we can afford to lose our entire starting nickel package in one offseason. I think the smart thing to do is re-sign Alexander who will come the cheapest and is a solid slot corner. Lock that position up. You have to sink or swim with Hughes next season on the outside and hope he continues to progress a year after the knee injury and I think he will. Rhodes is done here, so that leaves one position to battle over between Hill and likely a draft pick. 

Brian Poole would be a nice slot corner to sign.

Sign Mac, let Boyd, Hill and Hughes fight for starting positions. Draft a corner in late rounds (3-4) and maybe another in later rounds as a project. The high draft picks should go to DT, OL and QB. The Sandejo signing was a fall back for Harris. We can groom one while Sandejo holds the spot. I too dont see the vikings giving him the kind of money he will be asking. 
It feels so good being armchair GM

@"Jor-El" said:

You keep promoting two ideas:

1.  We can drop in a couple of rookie/FA CBs to do well in Zimmer's scheme
2. Ant Harris is irreplaceable

So I'll keep saying the same counters:

1. Players need time to learn to play for Zimmer - rookie CBs especially, and most defensive FAs we brought in (Michael Griffin, Captain Munnerlyn, Datone Jones, Emmanuel Lamur, Trevor Mays, George Iloka, Sheldon Richardson) flopped or needed at least a year to learn. Even Linvalle was just ok his first season here.
2. Zimmer loves Harrison Smith more than any other player, and he will put almost anyone next to him. Sendejo is back and he can live with him there and train a rookie.

As you know, I put those 2 together and think we will wave buh-bye to Harris if any other team offers him a big contract. I really don't see the Vikings, who did not offer Harris a long-term deal last offseason when they could have had him cheaply, deciding to "buy high" and sign him when his value is highest after a career year. I do see Zimmer seeing Alexander and Waynes as the only FA corners who already know his system and arguing hard to keep them. Spielman doesn't want to pick another DB in the first, and Zim is probably going to push his "all we need is a disruptive 3T to make this defense great" argument and probably get someone like Ross Blacklock.

I guess we'll see how it plays out.

I think it's time to put the false narrative of Zimmer's impossible to learn Coverage Schemes to bed. Trae played in 10 games his Rookie season. That might have been the high water mark for a long learning curve cuz Hughes played in every game his Rookie season. In fact, before the injury he played 79% or more snaps in 4 out of 6 games. Shit, UDFA Holton Hill played in all but 2 games as a Rookie. Granted, 4 if those were low snap counts, but 6 of them were 40% of total snaps or more.

And I don't recall Rhodes struggling one iota in Zimmer's rumored difficult system in Mike's first season. 

There's also the fact that he's going with more and more Zone instead of Man. So this isn't even the same system that was allegedly so hard to learn. Which means adding a Rookie and a Veteran can absolutely make an impact next year.

Now on to Harris. He played great in a partial year as a Starter. Signing him long-term after less than 1 full year of Starts is the very thing the vast majority on here complain about Rick doing. So the one time he decides he wants to see more he gets criticized for it? Whatever. 

Harris was an UDFA with medical questions. Minnesota gave him a chance and he proved he belonged. If he signs a huge deal somewhere good for him. But one would think he'd feel the same loyalty as Thielen and be open to a fair deal laden with incentives. Again, 1 and a half years total starting production. A lot of teams will want to see more than that to break the bank for him. We'll find out.

As for the existing CBs, Rhodes was likely the target of Mike's 'Young man's game' comment. That was likely the opening salvo that Zimmer only wants him back if it's on the cheap. Mike also has to be tired of the histrionics, especially Xavier going after Smith.

Alexander is gone. The kid was an Outside Corner at Clemson and miscast as a Slot DB (at least in Mac's mind). He will go to any team willing to give him a shot on the Outside. I wish that were Minnesota but I doubt it.

Waynes makes the most sense for Zimmer to argue to retain. He can blame Trae's struggles this year on Gray or worrying about his contract extension or whatever. The question then becomes does a team want to pony up for a kid that hasn't lived up to his Draft Position? I've read a ton of Free Agency Rankings lately and he isn't getting a lot of love.

So there are a lot of options. Rhodes comes back cheap (I say not that likely), Trae re-signs (50/50). Mac re-signs (not likely). Rick and Mike sign a veteran Tier 2 or Tier 3 Free Agent (highly likely). Rick and Mike spend a 1st, 2nd or 3rd Round pick on a Corner (virtual lead pipe lock).

Harris is also 50/50. If he moves on I see Safety becoming a high priority. Sendejo was brought back because Mike was out of Corners and he couldn't run Big Nickel with Keaese in the doghouse. That was simply familiarity. I see very little chance he factors in as a Starter next season.

@"supafreak84" said: I don't think we can afford to lose our entire starting nickel package in one offseason. I think the smart thing to do is re-sign Alexander who will come the cheapest and is a solid slot corner. Lock that position up. You have to sink or swim with Hughes next season on the outside and hope he continues to progress a year after the knee injury and I think he will. Rhodes is done here, so that leaves one position to battle over between Hill and likely a draft pick. 

You and some others have mentioned Hughes needing to start next year. Isn't his vertebrae injury a possible career-ender? Maybe there have been some updates I missed, or maybe he wants to gamble with more serious injury later in life, but is it likely he will play in 2020?

I must have missed some news on Hughes recovery also.  

I've batted around several different ideas, including Dennard and Fuller. I will change my mind again, but right now I'm on Eli Apple. Former 1st round bust, he won't cost much. Despite his mediocre play, Apple has shown flashes for stretches that remind why he was a 1st round pick. He might be a player Zimmer can fix.

I don't resign Waynes or Harris. Waynes isn't worth what he'll get and I don't like the idea of so much money going to the safety position. I do resign Mackenzie Alexander though. I draft two safeties in the 1st 4 rounds (1st two picks are DT and DE, the 3rd a OT)

CB - Hughes, Apple, Alexander, Hill

S - Harry, Sendejo, Dugger, Chinn

He may go as high as a #1 pick, but I would love to see Antoine Winfield Jr playing S for the Vikings...

Would I take him in the 2nd rd? If they let Ant walk?

I'd be game for that...

@"purplefaithful" said: He may go as high as a #1 pick, but I would love to see Antoine Winfield Jr playing S for the Vikings...

Would I take him in the 2nd rd? If they let Ant walk?

I'd be game for that...

I would like Winfield Jr. as well...if they can resign Ant Harris. CB offseason is sure going to be interesting...I really don't want a rookie starting at corner in Zimmer's system as I think that is going to be bad news bears in the NFC. With that being said, resign Mack and hope Hill makes a leap forward and we may be in an alright position. Plus, we have a PRO BOWL CB returning LOLZ

@"Hawkvike25" said:

@"purplefaithful" said: He may go as high as a #1 pick, but I would love to see Antoine Winfield Jr playing S for the Vikings...

Would I take him in the 2nd rd? If they let Ant walk?

I'd be game for that...

I would like Winfield Jr. as well...if they can resign Ant Harris. CB offseason is sure going to be interesting...I really don't want a rookie starting at corner in Zimmer's system as I think that is going to be bad news bears in the NFC. With that being said, resign Mack and hope Hill makes a leap forward and we may be in an alright position. Plus, we have a PRO BOWL CB returning LOLZ

Zimmer runs a lot of different sets and disguises. I dont know if a rookie will be able to handle all of that successfully. I'm not at all referring to either man or zone

Hughes was playing a lot as a Rookie. Look up the snap counts. He also was looking far more developed than Waynes did as a Rookie.

If Mike identifies as more polished prospect there is no reason to think he won't play a lot. If it's a rawer guy then the need to keep at least one of the FAs as well as sign one grows.

Hughes definitely was and I was really excited about him, but we don't really know where he stands right now given his most recent injury. Fingers crossed though

The guy I wanted over Ponder just became available...

Resign Mac, draft a CB in the first 3 rounds, sign JJoseph to a vet deal to be our Newman 2.0

Hughes-Hill-Mac-2nd Rd-Joseph should have at the minimum same production as last year at a 1/3rd of the price

How the DB's get valued on the FA market will probably shape the Vikings path more than anything else. Until they have a solution on the outside I think you need to look at Xavier as a restructure candidate vs. outright cut. If they can sign a FA they can move on from Rhodes at that point. Mike Hughes is the next real wildcard and its not due to his health. It comes down to if he'll provide more value long-term in the slot or outside. He can play both but the tea leaves have suggester the long-term plan may be to play him inside. If you really go back it wasn't until after Hughes was drafted that Mac developed significantly. If it plays out like this then Holton Hill is CB2 which he is well capable of assuming he can stay on the field. Other name to keep in mind for the slot if Marcus Sayles. 

If you'd asked me a week or two ago I would have said resigning Ant Harris was a no brainer. After looking and thinking on it some more I think they may end up letting him walk. Or at a minimum attempt to tag and trade him. Joe-El said it above, but playing next to Harrison Smith really simplifies things for the FS. Not trying to downplay Ant's talent, he's great, but you can't lock up $20+M in safeties. Karl Joseph has always been on MN's radar and will be a much most cost friendly move and could be paired with a draft pick. But I keep swaying back and forth on it. 

@"supafreak84" said: I don't think we can afford to lose our entire starting nickel package in one offseason. I think the smart thing to do is re-sign Alexander who will come the cheapest and is a solid slot corner. Lock that position up. You have to sink or swim with Hughes next season on the outside and hope he continues to progress a year after the knee injury and I think he will. Rhodes is done here, so that leaves one position to battle over between Hill and likely a draft pick. 

100% agree that they likely won't let the entire nickel package walk. But I do think Hughes/Mac are interchangeable to some degree. If Mac walks you can slide Hughes inside and resign Waynes. Trae hasn't lived up to his top 15 pick status but has developed into a pretty good CB. Long-term I think Hughes projects better in the slot since he's so sticky in coverage. He is completely serviceable on the outside but I think you're looking at a situation where a guy could become a pro bowl CB inside vs. an average to above average guy on the outside.