Diversity

[JimmyinSD]

first off I am all for diversity,  I dont want to live in a world where people are discounted or denied opportunities because of the color of their skin.

however I was thinking the other day as they were talking about the lack of diversity in the NFL ranks as far as coaches and front office people go.  why is the NFL the target?  The NFL gets a lot of is coaches the same way they get their players,  they bring them up through the college ranks.  Why isnt the talk about the lack of diversity at the collegiate level?  roughly the same % of black head coaches at the college level than that of the NFL (about 10%)  IIRC the numbers look even worse for the NCAA when you factor in athletic directors and asst coaches.  So if the pipeline isnt doing any better what is the NFL to do?  IMO this conversation should include the NCAA if they want to make any real change.

also,  who the F are these corporate types that want to act all "WOKE" (what ever the F that means)  you look at that executive boards that run these companies that are shaking their fingers at us in shame.... they look about as racially diverse as a hockey roster.   my favorite is the board of Nike,  anybody want to guess how many black folks they have employed in executive position,  a company that is so supportive of the racial diversity movement?  a company that was built on the names and efforts primarily of black athletes.... go ahead,  guess.....    https://about.nike.com/pages/executives  yep absolutely none,  now where is Lebrons and others outrage over that?

come on people,  lets change the game,  not just the parts of the game that will sell something or make us feel good about our candidate or ouselves... lets really stop seeing color and making decisions based on color.   we cant mandate this,  or be shamed into this,  its a change that has to come from within us all as humans.

[Guest]

As long as "change" means "other people have to make an effort to make my life easier", it will never be achieved.  I have yet to hear from anyone who can actually define what specific "change" they want.  Yeah, they want more POC in HC positions.  But they never seem to care about why there isn't more black HCs; they just want more... and then chalk it up to "racism".  There is no doubt that black Americans are- statistically- not as well off as people with other skin colors.  But why is that?  Racism is an easy answer... and puts all the blame on someone else.  If I was raised- my whole life- to believe that I am the victim of other people's bigotry (religious, body type, etc)... I'm sure that my point of view would be skewed from reality.  There might be times when it was actually true... but there would be many  more times when it wouldn't.  In the meantime, I will have created a victim mentality that will keep me from ever striving for greatness, since I no longer believe that my success is up to me.  I'm only a helpless victim of the bigotries of others.  That- plus the absolute destruction of the "nuclear / traditional" family- is why some people- of EVERY skin color- end up impoverished, uneducated, hopeless or imprisoned.

If people REALLY wanted to help people, they would encourage them to refuse to be a victim... and to "do the right things".  Those 2 things will *almost* guarantee a "successful" life.  But doing the right thing is often at odds with the passions of the moment... which is why so many people refuse to do it.  It's no different than dieting: Yes, there are some people that have an inherited condition that makes it difficult for them to be at a "healthy" weight.  For them, the effort to be "healthy" is excruciating... and often results in failure.  For others, they're simply fat because they like pizza and ice cream.  They COULD be "healthy"... but that would mean making changes... that they aren't really willing to make. 

Yes, there is racism; people of all skin colors are sometimes willing to hate people with other skin colors.  It's stupid... but it's also real.  But it's not nearly as prevalent as the media overlords would have us believe.  The vast majority of people fall short of "success": simply because they refuse to put down the pizza.  They live for the moment.... and then look to blame others when the consequences come due.  If ANY "group" of people want to experience "success", all they have to do is 3 simple things: get an education... get- and stay- married... and wait until after marriage to have children.  Those 3 things have been proven- at about 95% accuracy- to "guarantee" success.   

[Guest]

The racism is prevalent. More than you think. Mostly unconscious and being normalized but it is. It's in restaurants, dealerships, valet parking etc. Places you don't normally think. I am not talking work or career advancement which could be subjective. Just simple day to day encounters. You may not see it but it's there. And I am talking from experience.

1. When you go to a high end dealership to buy a car with a check and have to ask for help from four different people and spend over an hour waiting because you really like the car but they choose to help "others" then you know something is off.
2. When you go to a valet parking and you are shown the next spot to park your car then you know something is off
3. When you go to the T-Wolves game with a first row season  ticket and they have to 'make sure' you are at the right spot and even ask you not to walk courtside then you know something is off.
4. When you go to a high end restaurant with friends with the reservation under your name and you called the waiter and get the order going yet the same waiter presents the bill to your 'white' friend then you know something is off
5. When you finally get the car you like (not the same dealership as 1 above) test drive it and ask all the questions and sales manager comes in to talk numbers and focuses on your 'white' friend then you know something is off.

All these may be one offs you say but they happen to many people on a day to day basis. And when these happen to a person over and over it's hard to listen to people like you brush it or say it's not that bad. Remember, they have to normalize some of these just to be be able to get through. So please don't say it's not prevalent 

[Guest]

@mblack said:
The racism is prevalent. More than you think. Mostly unconscious and being normalized but it is. It's in restaurants, dealerships, valet parking etc. Places you don't normally think. I am not talking work or career advancement which could be subjective. Just simple day to day encounters. You may not see it but it's there. And I am talking from experience.

1. When you go to a high end dealership to buy a car with a check and have to ask for help from four different people and spend over an hour waiting because you really like the car but they choose to help "others" then you know something is off.
2. When you go to a valet parking and you are shown the next spot to park your car then you know something is off
3. When you go to the T-Wolves game with a first row season  ticket and they have to 'make sure' you are at the right spot and even ask you not to walk courtside then you know something is off.
4. When you go to a high end restaurant with friends with the reservation under your name and you called the waiter and get the order going yet the same waiter presents the bill to your 'white' friend then you know something is off
5. When you finally get the car you like (not the same dealership as 1 above) test drive it and ask all the questions and sales manager comes in to talk numbers and focuses on your 'white' friend then you know something is off.

All these may be one offs you say but they happen to many people on a day to day basis. And when these happen to a person over and over it's hard to listen to people like you brush it or say it's not that bad. Remember, they have to normalize some of these just to be be able to get through. So please don't say it's not prevalent 

So what is it... when these things happen to white people?  

Let's be honest: if you have been conditioned your whole life to believe that there is a "conspiracy" that is out to get you... that hates you and will never treat you as an equal member of society, you are going to see "it" in every interaction that doesn't go your way.  My white daughter got a visit from the police, just for sitting in a field watching the sunset with a couple of her friends.  And she was scared, too, even though she knew that she wasn't doing anything wrong.  Now, if she was black, she would probably think that it was because of her skin color.  But, since she isn't, it just turned out to be an awkward encounter.  

Perception isn't reality, although it seems that way to the person who is "seeing" it.  As for "unconscious racism", I don't even know what to say.  People make judgments about other people every day: noting how fat they are... or how tall... or how they're dressed... or their hair.  And it has nothing to do with 'racism" and everything to do with our imperfections as human beings.  We don't give value to other people unless we determine that they are- somehow- worthy of it.  Otherwise, they are just an "other" that has no particular value or worth to us.  Black people experience that- because everybody expiences it!  It's just that they are the only ones conditioned to believe that the ignorance of others is specifically directed at them.  

[Guest]

@pumpf said:

@mblack said:
The racism is prevalent. More than you think. Mostly unconscious and being normalized but it is. It's in restaurants, dealerships, valet parking etc. Places you don't normally think. I am not talking work or career advancement which could be subjective. Just simple day to day encounters. You may not see it but it's there. And I am talking from experience.

1. When you go to a high end dealership to buy a car with a check and have to ask for help from four different people and spend over an hour waiting because you really like the car but they choose to help "others" then you know something is off.
2. When you go to a valet parking and you are shown the next spot to park your car then you know something is off
3. When you go to the T-Wolves game with a first row season  ticket and they have to 'make sure' you are at the right spot and even ask you not to walk courtside then you know something is off.
4. When you go to a high end restaurant with friends with the reservation under your name and you called the waiter and get the order going yet the same waiter presents the bill to your 'white' friend then you know something is off
5. When you finally get the car you like (not the same dealership as 1 above) test drive it and ask all the questions and sales manager comes in to talk numbers and focuses on your 'white' friend then you know something is off.

All these may be one offs you say but they happen to many people on a day to day basis. And when these happen to a person over and over it's hard to listen to people like you brush it or say it's not that bad. Remember, they have to normalize some of these just to be be able to get through. So please don't say it's not prevalent 

So what is it... when these things happen to white people?  

Let's be honest: if you have been conditioned your whole life to believe that there is a "conspiracy" that is out to get you... that hates you and will never treat you as an equal member of society, you are going to see "it" in every interaction that doesn't go your way.  My white daughter got a visit from the police, just for sitting in a field watching the sunset with a couple of her friends.  And she was scared, too, even though she knew that she wasn't doing anything wrong.  Now, if she was black, she would probably think that it was because of her skin color.  But, since she isn't, it just turned out to be an awkward encounter.  
  

If your daughter were black, she would've been terrified. And rightly so. 

[Guest]

@JimmyinSD said:
first off I am all for diversity,  I dont want to live in a world where people are discounted or denied opportunities because of the color of their skin.

Diversity isn't just pursued because we want to discontinue denied opportunities. Diversity is pursued because it's more effective. Companies, business units. departmental and project teams of all kinds, understand that team members with a wide range of ages, backgrounds, races, religions and experiences to draw from, more often than not, is going to produce better results. 

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@pumpf said:

@mblack said:
The racism is prevalent. More than you think. Mostly unconscious and being normalized but it is. It's in restaurants, dealerships, valet parking etc. Places you don't normally think. I am not talking work or career advancement which could be subjective. Just simple day to day encounters. You may not see it but it's there. And I am talking from experience.

1. When you go to a high end dealership to buy a car with a check and have to ask for help from four different people and spend over an hour waiting because you really like the car but they choose to help "others" then you know something is off.
2. When you go to a valet parking and you are shown the next spot to park your car then you know something is off
3. When you go to the T-Wolves game with a first row season  ticket and they have to 'make sure' you are at the right spot and even ask you not to walk courtside then you know something is off.
4. When you go to a high end restaurant with friends with the reservation under your name and you called the waiter and get the order going yet the same waiter presents the bill to your 'white' friend then you know something is off
5. When you finally get the car you like (not the same dealership as 1 above) test drive it and ask all the questions and sales manager comes in to talk numbers and focuses on your 'white' friend then you know something is off.

All these may be one offs you say but they happen to many people on a day to day basis. And when these happen to a person over and over it's hard to listen to people like you brush it or say it's not that bad. Remember, they have to normalize some of these just to be be able to get through. So please don't say it's not prevalent 

So what is it... when these things happen to white people?  

Let's be honest: if you have been conditioned your whole life to believe that there is a "conspiracy" that is out to get you... that hates you and will never treat you as an equal member of society, you are going to see "it" in every interaction that doesn't go your way.  My white daughter got a visit from the police, just for sitting in a field watching the sunset with a couple of her friends.  And she was scared, too, even though she knew that she wasn't doing anything wrong.  Now, if she was black, she would probably think that it was because of her skin color.  But, since she isn't, it just turned out to be an awkward encounter.  
  

If your daughter were black, she would've been terrified. And rightly so. 

So, "scared" isn't enough for you?  She had to be "terrified"?  And rightly so? Why is that?  Can you show me the statistics that say that the police are more abusive towards blacks than whites?  If not, I can show you statistics that show just the opposite.

But, again: you're relying on "feelings", not facts.  Of COURSE she would be terrified... if she had been told the lie that  the police were her enemy and were "out to get her".  It wouldn't matter if it was true or not; she would "feel" that way, because that's what she has been told to feel.  

By the way, going back to mblack's presuppositions earlier, I forgot to mention that I got stopped by the police about a month ago, while I was riding my bicycle home from work (at around 10pm).  Now, if I assumed that the police were out to get me... or were my enemy... I might have been terrified.  I was uncomfortable, to be sure.  But not terrified.  Why not?  Because I had not been conditioned to feel that emotion.

If every parent told their children to be careful around teachers, because "alot of them" like to molest children... I imagine that my children would have a MUCH different experience at school... and a much different relationship with their teachers.  But that's now how we raised our children.  Perception isn't reality; no matter how much liberals might want it to be so.  
[
But, again: if you have any data you can publish to back up your claim that a black child would be "rightly" terrified of a police officer, please do share.

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@JimmyinSD said:
first off I am all for diversity,  I dont want to live in a world where people are discounted or denied opportunities because of the color of their skin.

Diversity isn't just pursued because we want to discontinue denied opportunities. Diversity is pursued because it's more effective. Companies, business units. departmental and project teams of all kinds, understand that team members with a wide range of ages, backgrounds, races, religions and experiences to draw from, more often than not, is going to produce better results. 

First of all, I don't think that there is any evidence to prove that what you're saying is true.  It sounds nice; but is there any evidence to prove that it's actually true?  But, for the sake of argument, let's say that it is.  I don't think that you actually believe it anyway.  If you did, then you would say that it would be important to have a conservative Christian as a part of all organizations.  Yet they are (usually) those at the most risk of being fired by the "cancel culture".  Let's at least try to be honest: there is only one viewpoint that is allowed in most "organizations"; and if you don't (publicly) share that point of view: you're gone.  These days, you don't even have to be a conservative Christian.  If you have an old tweet that goes against the currently accepted "group-think", you're gone.  Apparently "diversity" only applies to skin color, because diversity of thought is not much tolerated.

Neo-Nazis are horrible, evil people.  I think we can agree on that.  Would you support them being fired from their jobs for expressing their personal point of view?  I wouldn't, but that's because I believe in freedom of thought.  If you want to be an idiot, go ahead.  I won't try to silence you.  But I'll be happy to argue with you- all the day long- to try to show you how wrong your ideas are.  I think that you'd be in favor of them losing their jobs.  If that's true, then that would show that you don't really believe in your own aphorism.   

[Guest]

@pumpf said:

@mblack said:
The racism is prevalent. More than you think. Mostly unconscious and being normalized but it is. It's in restaurants, dealerships, valet parking etc. Places you don't normally think. I am not talking work or career advancement which could be subjective. Just simple day to day encounters. You may not see it but it's there. And I am talking from experience.

1. When you go to a high end dealership to buy a car with a check and have to ask for help from four different people and spend over an hour waiting because you really like the car but they choose to help "others" then you know something is off.
2. When you go to a valet parking and you are shown the next spot to park your car then you know something is off
3. When you go to the T-Wolves game with a first row season  ticket and they have to 'make sure' you are at the right spot and even ask you not to walk courtside then you know something is off.
4. When you go to a high end restaurant with friends with the reservation under your name and you called the waiter and get the order going yet the same waiter presents the bill to your 'white' friend then you know something is off
5. When you finally get the car you like (not the same dealership as 1 above) test drive it and ask all the questions and sales manager comes in to talk numbers and focuses on your 'white' friend then you know something is off.

All these may be one offs you say but they happen to many people on a day to day basis. And when these happen to a person over and over it's hard to listen to people like you brush it or say it's not that bad. Remember, they have to normalize some of these just to be be able to get through. So please don't say it's not prevalent 

So what is it... when these things happen to white people?  

Let's be honest: if you have been conditioned your whole life to believe that there is a "conspiracy" that is out to get you... that hates you and will never treat you as an equal member of society, you are going to see "it" in every interaction that doesn't go your way.  My white daughter got a visit from the police, just for sitting in a field watching the sunset with a couple of her friends.  And she was scared, too, even though she knew that she wasn't doing anything wrong.  Now, if she was black, she would probably think that it was because of her skin color.  But, since she isn't, it just turned out to be an awkward encounter.  

Perception isn't reality, although it seems that way to the person who is "seeing" it.  As for "unconscious racism", I don't even know what to say.  People make judgments about other people every day: noting how fat they are... or how tall... or how they're dressed... or their hair.  And it has nothing to do with 'racism" and everything to do with our imperfections as human beings.  We don't give value to other people unless we determine that they are- somehow- worthy of it.  Otherwise, they are just an "other" that has no particular value or worth to us.  Black people experience that- because everybody expiences it!  It's just that they are the only ones conditioned to believe that the ignorance of others is specifically directed at them.  

Regarding the red part. I guess its only the 'black' people that have been 'conditioned' that the world is out to get them. 'Whites' (and I am generalizing so I apologize) have not been 'conditioned' to think the world is fair and there is nothing wrong right? But yet here we are. 

At the bold. That is the point I am making. These so called 'judgments' you refer to do not need to happen. That is what as a society we should work on eliminating. Yes your daughter had an 'awkward' encounter with the police (thank goodness it was just that). Companies are working hard to eradicate these preconceived judgments because they see how negatively it affects team dynamics and productivity and how much better teams and groups are when they don't resort to these preconceived judgments. There is an abundance of empirical evidence to support this but yet we are here normalizing it. From your post above, I should be OK with the bias because that is just how 'you' see things. So I should just get on with the bias right? I'll leave you with these snippets...

Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race [in this case color] is superior.

Sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
Weightism: stigmatization, bullying, prejudice, and discrimination against overweight and obese individuals based on their body weight and appearance

Heightism: prejudice or discrimination against individuals based on height. In principle, it refers to the discriminatory treatment against individuals whose height is not within the normal acceptable range of height in a population.

You see the similarity of the above? Any prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination against anyone is wrong. Above I cited the race version. Now add the sexism, weight bias and other forms of conscious or unconscious bias on top of that and you start to get the picture. My point being, take whatever bias you may experience as a 'white' person and add the race one to it.

[Guest]

@mblack said:

@pumpf said:

@mblack said:
The racism is prevalent. More than you think. Mostly unconscious and being normalized but it is. It's in restaurants, dealerships, valet parking etc. Places you don't normally think. I am not talking work or career advancement which could be subjective. Just simple day to day encounters. You may not see it but it's there. And I am talking from experience.

1. When you go to a high end dealership to buy a car with a check and have to ask for help from four different people and spend over an hour waiting because you really like the car but they choose to help "others" then you know something is off.
2. When you go to a valet parking and you are shown the next spot to park your car then you know something is off
3. When you go to the T-Wolves game with a first row season  ticket and they have to 'make sure' you are at the right spot and even ask you not to walk courtside then you know something is off.
4. When you go to a high end restaurant with friends with the reservation under your name and you called the waiter and get the order going yet the same waiter presents the bill to your 'white' friend then you know something is off
5. When you finally get the car you like (not the same dealership as 1 above) test drive it and ask all the questions and sales manager comes in to talk numbers and focuses on your 'white' friend then you know something is off.

All these may be one offs you say but they happen to many people on a day to day basis. And when these happen to a person over and over it's hard to listen to people like you brush it or say it's not that bad. Remember, they have to normalize some of these just to be be able to get through. So please don't say it's not prevalent 

So what is it... when these things happen to white people?  

Let's be honest: if you have been conditioned your whole life to believe that there is a "conspiracy" that is out to get you... that hates you and will never treat you as an equal member of society, you are going to see "it" in every interaction that doesn't go your way.  My white daughter got a visit from the police, just for sitting in a field watching the sunset with a couple of her friends.  And she was scared, too, even though she knew that she wasn't doing anything wrong.  Now, if she was black, she would probably think that it was because of her skin color.  But, since she isn't, it just turned out to be an awkward encounter.  

Perception isn't reality, although it seems that way to the person who is "seeing" it.  As for "unconscious racism", I don't even know what to say.  People make judgments about other people every day: noting how fat they are... or how tall... or how they're dressed... or their hair.  And it has nothing to do with 'racism" and everything to do with our imperfections as human beings.  We don't give value to other people unless we determine that they are- somehow- worthy of it.  Otherwise, they are just an "other" that has no particular value or worth to us.  Black people experience that- because everybody expiences it!  It's just that they are the only ones conditioned to believe that the ignorance of others is specifically directed at them.  

Regarding the red part. I guess its only the 'black' people that have been 'conditioned' that the world is out to get them. 'Whites' (and I am generalizing so I apologize) have not been 'conditioned' to think the world is fair and there is nothing wrong right? But yet here we are. 

At the bold. That is the point I am making. These so called 'judgments' you refer to do not need to happen. That is what as a society we should work on eliminating. Yes your daughter had an 'awkward' encounter with the police (thank goodness it was just that). Companies are working hard to eradicate these preconceived judgments because they see how negatively it affects team dynamics and productivity and how much better teams and groups are when they don't resort to these preconceived judgments. There is an abundance of empirical evidence to support this but yet we are here normalizing it. From your post above, I should be OK with the bias because that is just how 'you' see things. So I should just get on with the bias right? I'll leave you with these snippets...

Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race [in this case color] is superior.

Sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
Weightism: stigmatization, bullying, prejudice, and discrimination against overweight and obese individuals based on their body weight and appearance

Heightism: prejudice or discrimination against individuals based on height. In principle, it refers to the discriminatory treatment against individuals whose height is not within the normal acceptable range of height in a population.

You see the similarity of the above? Any prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination against anyone is wrong. Above I cited the race version. Now add the sexism, weight bias and other forms of conscious or unconscious bias on top of that and you start to get the picture. My point being, take whatever bias you may experience as a 'white' person and add the race one to it.