was out of town hunting---How did KC look===what % of dropbacks were under pressure--- how many were wrong qb reads----poor routes by wr---poor throws
Did we protect him or was he under duress the whole game.
I'm not making excuses for the 84 mill man but are they protecting their investment
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
Barring injury, no more than 30 starts left...he can be an albatross on someone else's salary cap...a QB in the first and Day 3...
By the time that comes around his salary will be seen as affordable. He's still up there in guaranteed money (2nd), but in terms of average per year, he's 7th, and in total dollars, he's already down to 14th. When it comes time to make a decision on him, his rank will be even lower.
And with a team in its window, do you really want to start over? The NFL does seem to be getting better at drafting QBs the last few years, but let's not forget that 1st rounders taken between 2012 and 2015 should be entering their primes right now. They are Marcus Mariota, Jameis Winston, Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater, EJ Manuel, Andrew Luck, RGIII, Ryan Tannehill and Brandon Weeden.
Its window? Last year they won 8 games. This year remains to be seen, but last Sunday's shit show by Cousins has left a bitter taste that has yet to wash out. If the Vikings underperform this season and miss the playoffs, you can be guaranteed they are going in a different direction after his contract is up. Its all up to Kirk. Would love to see him rebound spectacularly....and by that, I mean in a meaningful way when the game is on the line. Not playing the Raiders at home.
Of course it's up to Kirk, but there's a lot of football left to be played.
And of course we're in our window. It has nothing to do with wins and losses; it's about roster talent and salary cap. You're either in your window or you're rebuilding, and my God, a team with enormous contracts paid out to Diggs, Thielen, Hunter, Griffen, Joseph, Kendricks, Barr, Rhodes, Harry, Waynes and Rudy ain't rebuilding. You want to saddle all that talent with a rookie QB? And watch him develop (or not) over a couple of years as that talent starts to age out? Or maybe see what happens if you draft a franchise tackle and keep improving the offensive line?
No, I know what you mean about the window, my point (poorly explained by me) is that you wouldn't know if from our record last year. Cousins has this year and next. I mean, you can't expect to be given more than that. This 'well eventually all this talent will kick in and Cousins will flourish' notion will definitely not extend beyond his 3 year contract unless the team wins games and gets to the playoffs. Because if they don't, that notion was flawed.
Fair enough. I don't disagree with that. I'm probably reacting less to your post and more to the screaming mimis who populate twitter, talk radio and a couple other boards who seem to think that, suddenly, Cousins is and will continue to be who he was last Sunday, which is ridiculous.
Quote: @Akvike said:
was out of town hunting---How did KC look===what % of dropbacks were under pressure--- how many were wrong qb reads----poor routes by wr---poor throws
Did we protect him or was he under duress the whole game.
I'm not making excuses for the 84 mill man but are they protecting their investment
he didnt get hurried or harrassed any more than any other pro QB, he just plain choked under the pressure of trying to lead a comeback of that size in that situation. He was errant on his passes and didnt make good decisions at times with where to throw or ball security. really looked like a rookie out there.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
I dont think we have seen the last of KC and IMO last sunday was an exception and not the rule, but it pisses me off that his status as a longterm starter was a foregone conclusion and anybody that suggested that the team wasnt making the best moves at that position over the last year + was being stupid.
I don't think this was ever the case: the 3 year contract was a prove-it, we're in a window contract. It was never a forgone conclusion that Cousins was getting a second contract in Minnesota. In fact, this worked for both parties quite well (the contract), regardless. Kirk got paid no matter what and the Vikings can move on if need be.
I know myself and I think Barr and a few others were preaching a mid round QB in the draft or even higher if the team wasnt sold on Sloter as the #2, the arguement that I got back was that Kirk had 2 years left and that he was just coming off a 4K season and all those TD and was only going to get better. even a month ago when we were arguing for a bigger audition for Sloter it was once again thrown back that KC was a franchise QB... well one bad game and where are those people now....most likely the same saying that RS and Zim need to be fired for signing him in the first place.
I just want to see more emphasis put on all positions and open competition a on a more consistent basis. I still think that KC can settle down, find a rhythm, and be a decent QB for this team, but I dont want to see the future of the team banked on it without a fall back effort in place. keep the cupboards stocked.
This is a long-standing problem with this team's current management: resistance to competition at the QB position. Weren't a lot of people saying Ponder should have more competition at least a year before Bridgewater was drafted? Could another young QB have been on the roster during the Tarvaris Jackson era? Maybe we could even have drafted a QB after Bridgewater's first two modestly-successful years. Why not a QB in 2017 while relying on Bradford's dicey health?
The only draft picks the Vikings have used during Spielman's tenure have been in round 2 (TJack), 5 (John David Booty), 1 (Ponder), and 1 (Bridgewater). So the pattern is to draft someone high, declare him the solution, and not challenge him. Even with the most day 3 draft picks of any team in the league and a great pride in developing late-round talent, we don't draft QBs unless a "new king" is being crowned. It's the least-drafted position on the entire team.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
I dont think we have seen the last of KC and IMO last sunday was an exception and not the rule, but it pisses me off that his status as a longterm starter was a foregone conclusion and anybody that suggested that the team wasnt making the best moves at that position over the last year + was being stupid.
I don't think this was ever the case: the 3 year contract was a prove-it, we're in a window contract. It was never a forgone conclusion that Cousins was getting a second contract in Minnesota. In fact, this worked for both parties quite well (the contract), regardless. Kirk got paid no matter what and the Vikings can move on if need be.
I know myself and I think Barr and a few others were preaching a mid round QB in the draft or even higher if the team wasnt sold on Sloter as the #2, the arguement that I got back was that Kirk had 2 years left and that he was just coming off a 4K season and all those TD and was only going to get better. even a month ago when we were arguing for a bigger audition for Sloter it was once again thrown back that KC was a franchise QB... well one bad game and where are those people now....most likely the same saying that RS and Zim need to be fired for signing him in the first place.
I just want to see more emphasis put on all positions and open competition a on a more consistent basis. I still think that KC can settle down, find a rhythm, and be a decent QB for this team, but I dont want to see the future of the team banked on it without a fall back effort in place. keep the cupboards stocked.
This is a long-standing problem with this team's current management: resistance to competition at the QB position. Weren't a lot of people saying Ponder should have more competition at least a year before Bridgewater was drafted? Could another young QB have been on the roster during the Tarvaris Jackson era? Maybe we could even have drafted a QB after Bridgewater's first two modestly-successful years. Why not a QB in 2017 while relying on Bradford's dicey health?
The only draft picks the Vikings have used during Spielman's tenure have been in round 2 (TJack), 5 (John David Booty), 1 (Ponder), and 1 (Bridgewater). So the pattern is to draft someone high, declare him the solution, and not challenge him. Even with the most day 3 draft picks of any team in the league and a great pride in developing late-round talent, we don't draft QBs unless a "new king" is being crowned. It's the least-drafted position on the entire team.
while QB is the topic dujour, thats kind of been the approach with the entire offense. they really dont draft for the O unless its a real glaring need. the selection of Smith Jr before Rudy is gone IMO is more out of desire to add a 2nd quality pass catching TE for this offense, and not as a guy to push/replace Rudolph.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
I dont think we have seen the last of KC and IMO last sunday was an exception and not the rule, but it pisses me off that his status as a longterm starter was a foregone conclusion and anybody that suggested that the team wasnt making the best moves at that position over the last year + was being stupid.
I don't think this was ever the case: the 3 year contract was a prove-it, we're in a window contract. It was never a forgone conclusion that Cousins was getting a second contract in Minnesota. In fact, this worked for both parties quite well (the contract), regardless. Kirk got paid no matter what and the Vikings can move on if need be.
I know myself and I think Barr and a few others were preaching a mid round QB in the draft or even higher if the team wasnt sold on Sloter as the #2, the arguement that I got back was that Kirk had 2 years left and that he was just coming off a 4K season and all those TD and was only going to get better. even a month ago when we were arguing for a bigger audition for Sloter it was once again thrown back that KC was a franchise QB... well one bad game and where are those people now....most likely the same saying that RS and Zim need to be fired for signing him in the first place.
I just want to see more emphasis put on all positions and open competition a on a more consistent basis. I still think that KC can settle down, find a rhythm, and be a decent QB for this team, but I dont want to see the future of the team banked on it without a fall back effort in place. keep the cupboards stocked.
This is a long-standing problem with this team's current management: resistance to competition at the QB position. Weren't a lot of people saying Ponder should have more competition at least a year before Bridgewater was drafted? Could another young QB have been on the roster during the Tarvaris Jackson era? Maybe we could even have drafted a QB after Bridgewater's first two modestly-successful years. Why not a QB in 2017 while relying on Bradford's dicey health?
The only draft picks the Vikings have used during Spielman's tenure have been in round 2 (TJack), 5 (John David Booty), 1 (Ponder), and 1 (Bridgewater). So the pattern is to draft someone high, declare him the solution, and not challenge him. Even with the most day 3 draft picks of any team in the league and a great pride in developing late-round talent, we don't draft QBs unless a "new king" is being crowned. It's the least-drafted position on the entire team.
while QB is the topic dujour, thats kind of been the approach with the entire offense. they really dont draft for the O unless its a real glaring need. the selection of Smith Jr before Rudy is gone IMO is more out of desire to add a 2nd quality pass catching TE for this offense, and not as a guy to push/replace Rudolph.
True enough - the overall attitude for offensive positions has been kind of, "This guy can play LG, don't need to worry about that spot any more!"
As for Smith, you might also just conclude TE is the exception to that pattern, because this was the 5th straight year of drafting a TE.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
Vikings fans have little to no chance with this guy. He throws a pass 3 feet over a leaping,6 foot 6", Kyle Rudolph, wide open, in the end zone, then instantly raises his arm, because he thinks it isn't his fault!
Really! Go back and look at that play. This dork thinks it isn't his fault.
Spielman and Zimmer brought this guy in. They need to go. It's just that simple.
I think this is a good team, and I think they will do well. But they won't be in the superbowl. They may not make the playoffs.
So Cousins needs to go, and everyone who brought him in should go with him.
IIRC his reaction was he was expecting Kyle to run the route a little deeper before curling, he said its a matter of not being on the same page, I dont think he was necessarily blaming KR, just frustration over the misfire.
as far as firing RS and Zimmer over bringing in KC... who would you have brought in? its not like decent QBs are just hanging around. TB hasnt looked good at all in any opportunity since his injury and the story on Case is well hashed out. they took a shot and its looking like a miss thus far. there are plenty of other reasons to want to see RS or Zim fired but taking a chance on improving the most important position on the field is hardly one of them IMO. its not like KC has been a total bust.
I'm more disappointed that management painted themselves into a corner with the 3 year guaranteed contract. I know they thought he was the best they could get, but it hasn't panned out. Perhaps it required a fully guaranteed contract to get him here. They should structured it so they could move him if he doesn't work out.
They could still move him if they tank this year, but it would be costly.
Did they really think they could win with an average QB? It's a pretty rare .
Soon we will see the defense start to lose some players because of what they paid Kirk, and the window will start to close.
a guarantee on 3 years for a starting QB is no big deal. As a proven vet (what he is proven is up for debate) we knew what we were getting. So 3 years is the minimum he would be here anyway. 5 years guaranteed would be crazy, but a normal 5 year deal is probably going to basically be a 3 year guaranteed deal.
I'm not trying to be contentious. I actually think this season shows a lot of promise. Neither the Packers or Bears look like world beaters to me; so maybe this thing can work!
But I also agree with Jimmy , that there should always be competition at every position, including QB.
I just favor contracts with incentive to win. That's all.
I fully understand the concept of limited options. But If they knew what they were getting, as you say, they need to make it work. That's all I'm saying.
I'm not sold on Cousins and I'm tired of losing.
The excuse will be, it is only two games.
But they should be 2-0. And we can blame whoever we want, but they gave it away last Sunday, and I'm still a little salty about it!
One more thing. As along time Vikings fan, I have seen this before.
Kirk Cousins has great accuracy when he is on.
Culpepper was the same way. If the very first pass of the game was way off, Culpepper could never reign it in and recover. Those games were always losses. Kirk was very much that way this past game. Off from the get go. He had a great pass to Diggs for the TD, but it was really close . Other than that, he never got on track.
I think Cousins problem is one of emotion control. He has the physical tools to be great; yet he isn't.
If he starts dropping dimes against the Raiders, it will be an easy win. If he is way off target from the get go, It could be another Buffalo like game.
Quote: @jargomcfargo said:
One more thing. As along time Vikings fan, I have seen this before.
Kirk Cousins has great accuracy when he is on.
Culpepper was the same way. If the very first pass of the game was way off, Culpepper could never reign it in and recover. Those games were always losses. Kirk was very much that way this past game. Off from the get go. He had a great pass to Diggs for the TD, but it was really close . Other than that, he never got on track.
I think Cousins problem is one of emotion control. He has the physical tools to be great; yet he isn't.
If he starts dropping dimes against the Raiders, it will be an easy win. If he is way off target from the get go, It could be another Buffalo like game.
That's why I was really expecting 4 straight runs at that point. Even when they knew it was coming, GB wasn't able to stop it consistently. I saw nothing to make me think they could stop it four times in a row.
Quote: @Scoog said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
One more thing. As along time Vikings fan, I have seen this before.
Kirk Cousins has great accuracy when he is on.
Culpepper was the same way. If the very first pass of the game was way off, Culpepper could never reign it in and recover. Those games were always losses. Kirk was very much that way this past game. Off from the get go. He had a great pass to Diggs for the TD, but it was really close . Other than that, he never got on track.
I think Cousins problem is one of emotion control. He has the physical tools to be great; yet he isn't.
If he starts dropping dimes against the Raiders, it will be an easy win. If he is way off target from the get go, It could be another Buffalo like game.
That's why I was really expecting 4 straight runs at that point. Even when they knew it was coming, GB wasn't able to stop it consistently. I saw nothing to make me think they could stop it four times in a row.
I agree...the Green Bay defense was literally gassed at that point and could not of stopped the run. Besides, it was first and goal on the eight yard line.
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