Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
The issue appears to be a difference in how each side wants to resolve the matter.
If the Vikings don't want to pay him top line TE money moving forward it makes an extension tough since they'll be attaching them to future guarantees at a high per year rate. From Rudolph's standpoint it looks like he wants to stay in purple but doesn't like the idea of a fully non-guaranteed 1 year deal. Although TE's have a decent life past 30 an injury or a lackadaisical 2019 probably kill his market value.
What does it mean? If Rudy is going to refuse to play on his current deal they probably need to trade him or release him, although its probably not what the Vikings want to do. From the other side the Vikings are probably looking to extend Rudy way below market average or asking him to take a straight pay-cut in return for guaranteed money, which is rare in the NFL.
why is this so difficult? why not use incentives to allow him to reach the money he wants to make and thinks he deserves? if he thinks he should be paid like a top TE, then he needs to play like a top TE. his base should be set on where he is currently at or slighty below and then add incentives if he out performs the deal? let him bank on himself and his abilities to get to those marks.
Because there needs to be a long-term solution for both sides. Fixing 2019 isn't that tough but figuring out how to handle 2020/21 is very difficult. The Vikings don't want to tie themselves to long-term guaranteed money in an extension. Alternatively Rudy is going to want guarantees or they are going to end up in this exact situation a year from now. If you look at the situation as a whole, Rudolph and his camp are trying to leverage the Vikings limited cap space into an extension and that really benefits Rudy long-term. Now they're just cranking up the heat a little more and saying they want a resolution before OTA's so they know if Rudolph is or isn't in their future plans suggesting the alternative be a trade.
I understand that, so offer him an incentive laden deal that gives them both options over the next 3 years. Guarantee a base and then let him earn the bigger money through incentives. If he wont go for it then move him now or force his hand on the hold of out talk.
From a pure football perspective, I think we need to keep Rudy in 2019. We're going to see a lot of 2 TE sets and I'd feel much better if one of those was Rudolph. I love me some Irv, but TEs can really surprise you with how long they take to get it.
I have a feeling if we can't somehow agree with Rudolph, we're going to be on the hunt for another veteran TE. Ryan Griffin is a TE who might be looking at a 6/1 release. And he's about half the cost of Rudolph.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
The issue appears to be a difference in how each side wants to resolve the matter.
If the Vikings don't want to pay him top line TE money moving forward it makes an extension tough since they'll be attaching them to future guarantees at a high per year rate. From Rudolph's standpoint it looks like he wants to stay in purple but doesn't like the idea of a fully non-guaranteed 1 year deal. Although TE's have a decent life past 30 an injury or a lackadaisical 2019 probably kill his market value.
What does it mean? If Rudy is going to refuse to play on his current deal they probably need to trade him or release him, although its probably not what the Vikings want to do. From the other side the Vikings are probably looking to extend Rudy way below market average or asking him to take a straight pay-cut in return for guaranteed money, which is rare in the NFL.
why is this so difficult? why not use incentives to allow him to reach the money he wants to make and thinks he deserves? if he thinks he should be paid like a top TE, then he needs to play like a top TE. his base should be set on where he is currently at or slighty below and then add incentives if he out performs the deal? let him bank on himself and his abilities to get to those marks.
Because there needs to be a long-term solution for both sides. Fixing 2019 isn't that tough but figuring out how to handle 2020/21 is very difficult. The Vikings don't want to tie themselves to long-term guaranteed money in an extension. Alternatively Rudy is going to want guarantees or they are going to end up in this exact situation a year from now. If you look at the situation as a whole, Rudolph and his camp are trying to leverage the Vikings limited cap space into an extension and that really benefits Rudy long-term. Now they're just cranking up the heat a little more and saying they want a resolution before OTA's so they know if Rudolph is or isn't in their future plans suggesting the alternative be a trade.
Rudolph and his agent sure are going about trying to get an extension in a very public fashion.
Thielen did it and got his rewarded (deservedly so) twice.
Easton tried to pull the Thielen card but the Vikings did not budge.
The question is what tight end that recently signed a large deal has lived up to that contract?
Trey Burton got a 4 yr 32 mil deal and caught 54 passes for 569 yards with 6 TDs.Cameron Brate signed a 6 year 40.8 mil deal and caught 30 passes for 289 yards and 6 TDs.Jimmy Graham signed a 3 year 30 mil deal and caught 55 passes for 636 yards and 2 TDs.Jack Doyle signed a 3 year 18.9 mil deal and caught 26 passes for 245 yards and 2 TDs.Greg Olsen signed a 2 year 17.1 mil deal and caught 27 passes for 291 yards and 4 TDs.Greg Olsen signed a 2 year 17 mil deal and caught 4 passes for 13 yards and 0 TDs. He was injured early.
Only Kelce and Ertz really have shined since signing their extensions.
The tight end market is really out of whack IMHO.
I have to imagine that Rudolph's agent is seeking 8 mil per year at the minimum and probably for at least 3 more years after 2019.
I mean looking at the market and the similar production how could he not ask for that much? He would not be doing his job?
I wonder if the Raiders would trade Karl Joseph and a late round pick swap for Rudolph?
That's one hell of a post Mark. It sheds a new light on the subject.
So much angst in this thread about whether they can keep a tight end who has great hands, and is a valuable red zone target. Yes, he's slow and doesn't get great separation all the time. But he is very good at contested balls.
We wouldn't have this question if they hadn't paid a QB the way they did. And that will likely prove to be the bottom line in performance, whether Rudy stays or goes.
I can see value with him in 2 TE sets and we really need a 3rd target outside of Diggs/Thielen.
But I've never been a huge Rudolph fan. Nice player, community guy, not a game changer.
Certainly a role for him on team with the right $$, but I aint losing sleep if they trade him for a decent return either.
Quote: @jargomcfargo said:
That's one hell of a post Mark. It sheds a new light on the subject.
So much angst in this thread about whether they can keep a tight end who has great hands, and is a valuable red zone target. Yes, he's slow and doesn't get great separation all the time. But he is very good at contested balls.
We wouldn't have this question if they hadn't paid a QB the way they did. And that will likely prove to be the bottom line in performance, whether Rudy stays or goes.
We also would not have it if they hadn't agreed to pay $8M to a 30-year-old DE who didn't contribute last year and who has a clear young successor on the roster (and 2-3 more prospects and an OLB who wants to rush the passer more).
That's the Vikings personnel conundrum under Zimmer: defensive units need to be loaded with multiple players for every position, but if there is a single player - or even a high draft pick like Irv Smith - at any offensive position, they are ready to roll with that single option.
Not sure if its Rudolph or some other vet restructuring, but something has to happen by 3 pm central today to fit in Bradbury who just officially signed.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
I can see value with him in 2 TE sets and we really need a 3rd target outside of Diggs/Thielen.
But I've never been a huge Rudolph fan. Nice player, community guy, not a game changer.
Certainly a role for him on team with the right $$, but I aint losing sleep if they trade him for a decent return either.
I would agree. When he first came on the scene...especially the year he was Pro Bowl MVP...he was looking like a Gronk-lite weapon. But the last few years he seems to disappear at times. Whether it's been the QB turnover or the emergence of Thielen/Diggs, I don't know. He's not the consistent red-zone weapon as of late.
But if we could convince Belichick to part with a 2020 #2 or a combination of Rudy/Tread for #2 and a couple dozen lobsters  , I'd certainly entertain a discussion. And IF we can get a true 3rd weapon out of the receivers we now have, losing him wan't hurt that much.
Ralphie___I 'd say it has more to do with the oline going to crap and they needing to keep him in for more blocking support which limited the time he got to rub and drop into a route.
Jimmy the problem with incentives is he's a third option and then you have his replacement possibly lining up in the other TE spot---who's to say they don't just leave him in for the blocking te and focus on letting irving run routes most of the time thus negating the incentive clause. Arizona did it with bradford
Does Kendricks restructuring mean there is enough cap room to now keep Rudolph
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