Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ twgerber said:
Elflein is going to be a good guard I think.
Here is another college scouting report that mentions how athletic he is https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2017/2/9/14551982/2017-nfl-draft-scouting-report-pat-elflein-ol-ohio-state
Quickness and Explosion to BoastAthleticism is not a concern with Elflein. He is a fluid athlete who can cover large tracts of field when moving to the second level of the perimeter, as well as play with short area quickness when executing combination blocks and the like. Elflein is explosive, too. He possesses great strength in his lower body and does a good job of unlocking his hips to explode into opposing defensive linemen. When being asked to recover from being beaten initially, Elflein often displays enough balance to remain upright and regain the advantage over his opponent. In every sense of the term, Elflein is an athlete.
That article was written before the combine, where Elflein posted a 5.32 forty and even worse jump and agility numbers. Numbers that, for a player of his size, are well below average. That sort of thing happens all the time. Amateur writers pen a glowing piece about a very good college player and make assumptions about traits that aren't objectively true. It's why they hold a combine in the 1st place. What you posted was not a scouting report. It was written by a kid.
From NFL.com: "One of the most technically advanced offensive lineman in this draft. He's not the best athlete in the world, but he's technically proficient. He's one of those guys that will play 10 years in the NFL. I love the fact that he can play center and both guards....Not a ballerina with his feet. Footwork can be a little labored at times for the center position....Feet become heavy and limited, allowing athletic opponents to work around his edge and into backfield."
It's OK to like Elflein, think of him as a technically sound player with very good leverage, exceptional work ethic, look forward to him starting at guard and making that position better...and also recognize that he's not the best athlete in the world. Really, it's OK.
There's so much "side taking" in internet communication that if you point out a weakness, you're a hater and if you point out a strength you're a fanboy. It's so fucking stupid.
He's a so-so athlete if that helps. He is faster on film than his testing times. When you watch on film he makes up for his pure athletic deficiencies by taking very good angles to the 2nd level or by getting a head start intellectually. Aside from how he pairs with Bradbury the bigger question is how much did health impact his 2018 season? Personally I don't think he was right all year since you never saw him regain much strength. His technique also regressed quite a bit which means he might have been balancing too many things at once (weight room / catching up on the field). Hopefully those issues resolve themselves with a healthy off-season.
The good news is that if the Viking do find themselves handcuffed at guard they have plenty of options who can slide in and compete: Samia, Jones, Dozier, Kline (can play both sides), and Collins who I think is a darkhorse to make a serious push for a starting spot.
I think of Collins as strictly a Tackle but who knows.
@ MaroonBells
I think it's because you continually brought up the fact that Elflein was the worst rated C according to PFF this off-season.
I can't speak for everyone, but I thought you weren't a fan of the guy based on the way you would talk about him whenever people were discussing the OL.
It's all good. I actually agree with you that Elflein isn't a great athlete for the position. He can get out and block at the 2nd level, but it's not because he's a great athlete. It's because he takes good angles and is technically sound.
Just so Geoff's post... Spot on.
Hopefully he bounces back to form with the offseason to finally heal and rebuild the strength
His first year wasn't an anomolly sp? so I 'll believe new coaching and healing will get him back to pre injury play.
When did you need to be a super athlete to play OG? Its the easiest position on the offensive line. Bradbury is a much better player at center than Elflein, but Elf can be a decent guard in the NFL. Aviante Collins is going to be heard from before the final shuffling of the starters in that unit get set in early September. Samia might be a guy that gets 2-3 games at the end of the season at OG starting if he keeps working on strength and movement, he's got good upside.
I feel better about this line's potential, especially for the 2020 season and another Draft next year that includes an OL in the first 3 rounds.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@MaroonBells
I think it's because you continually brought up the fact that Elflein was the worst rated C according to PFF this off-season.
I can't speak for everyone, but I thought you weren't a fan of the guy based on the way you would talk about him whenever people were discussing the OL.
It's all good. I actually agree with you that Elflein isn't a great athlete for the position. He can get out and block at the 2nd level, but it's not because he's a great athlete. It's because he takes good angles and is technically sound.
I only brought that up because he WAS the worst rated C according to PFF. I'm relieved the Vikings aren't as afraid of the truth as we fans seem to be.
The Vikings could've gone into the draft assuming that all of Elflein's problems last year were related to his injury, kept him at center, and avoided the best damn outside zone center to come out of the draft in a decade. Quite a few on this board wanted us to do exactly that.
What if they were wrong? What if Elflein's problems last year were more scheme related than injury related? Then this huge problem (THE OL) that everyone bellyaches about doesn't really improve, and we go yet another year wondering how Cook and Cousins could do behind a better offensive line.
I'm glad we did what we did. And I think Elflein will be fine at guard. But if we're honest with ourselves, we have to also acknowledge that he may not (MAY not) have the athletic profile to project long term in an outside zone scheme.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ greediron said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ twgerber said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@AIIBS
That's what I was thinking. Listened to PA yesterday talk about how athletic Elflein was and how great it was to now have great athletes like Brad, Elf and O'Niell playing next to each other.
Elflein is not athletic at all. It could even be argued that he doesn't even fit very well in this scheme. He struggles getting to the 2nd level, he struggles with reach blocks. Last year he struggled big time in calling out blocking assignments. Bradbury will be a huge upgrade from Elflein in all three areas.
The question then becomes who are the three best inside? And is Elflein even part of that? Is Collins an option?
I know there's more to it than just athleticism, but the most purely athletic line might be O'Neill, Collins, Brad, Samia and Udoh.
Elflein is incredibly athletic and one of his strengths is getting to the second level. How do you know he struggled calling assignments? Never heard that critique either. How Bradbury will be better at Center than Elf but to say he isn't athletic and can't get to the second level is just plain wrong.
From https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sports/football/4534868-vikings-center-elflein-hopes-offensive-line-making-former-position-coach
Maybe the most impressive play of the night came late in the first quarter when Cook took a screen pass 26 yards to pay dirt thanks in large part to a critical block from Elflein at the second level.
“It was a great call by (offensive coordinator John De Filippo),” Cook said Sunday. “Then (Elflein) got out there and got a great block on (linebacker Blake) Martinez.
“That’s one of my favorite plays,” Elflein added. “I know Dalvin is getting the ball, and if I can give him a little bit of air he’s going to take it to the house almost every time. It was dialed up against a good defense, and everyone did their job and it worked out.”
Those types of plays show why Sparano pushed the Vikings to select Elflein in the third round of the 2017 NFL Draft. He boasts uncanny athleticism for a 6-foot-3, 300-pound center that manifests on plays like the screen pass to Cook.
From MileHigh site on Elf:
Elflein is one of the most pro-ready prospects on the offensive line in this year's draft class. He has valuable experience at right guard, left guard and center and would provide positional flexibility for the team and give Denver a long-term option at several positions. While his pass protection could use some improvement, he is an absolute road-grader in the running game and would boost the team's efficacy in this regard and give them a tenacious and fierce presence in their trenches
Man, if you think Elflein is "incredibly athletic," I'm really excited for you to see Bradbury. The notion that Elflein struggled with calling the assignments came from a Vikings podcast, but I've heard it elsewhere, too. There was a play against Green Bay where Cousins was destroyed due to a blown call by Elflein. Either way, you give him another year removed from injury I think he'll be fine. Especially now that he can focus on blocking and not making the calls.
And you wouldn't put any of the blame on the mess of an offense we ran and the fact that Elf got no live reps until the season had started?
Yes, I would. And I've said that. Repeatedly. Muscle memory tends to degrade when the muscles aren't in tune. I have no idea why so many think I hate Elflein. Is it because I liked Bradbury? That doesn't make any sense.
Didn't say you hated him. Or even didn't like him. Just think he was a bit better than you give him credit for.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
When did you need to be a super athlete to play OG? Its the easiest position on the offensive line. Bradbury is a much better player at center than Elflein, but Elf can be a decent guard in the NFL. Aviante Collins is going to be heard from before the final shuffling of the starters in that unit get set in early September. Samia might be a guy that gets 2-3 games at the end of the season at OG starting if he keeps working on strength and movement, he's got good upside.
I feel better about this line's potential, especially for the 2020 season and another Draft next year that includes an OL in the first 3 rounds.
I think they're 1 more OT away from being a legit Line. And a young one minus Jones, who just may be the new Berger of this Unit as the veteran interior swing guy.
Young, and about to get some serious coaching. Scarnechia in NE is regarded as the best in the business. Came out of retirement and took the exact same Starters from chicken shit to chicken salad.
Dennison and Kubiak aren't too far behind. Not a lot of HOF guys on Gary's Lines in Denver or Houston. But man could they run the rock! With Joe Schmoe RBs.
Elf might not fit their preferred skillset 100% but I bet they love his intelligence and toughness. I'm with Geoff that he was never fully himself last year.
But what if he doesn't bounce back? Kline can slide over and Samia can come in. Maybe more likely that, if healthy, Collins takes it outright and prevents any shuffling at all.
And they also have Jones. Look, Flop and the Wonder Twins completely wasted having him on the Roster last year. There's simply no way he wasn't better than Compton or Remmers in practice. But the Offensive Coaches were clueless.
In comes the very experienced Kubiak and Dennison and all the sudden Jones is re-signed. Not a coincidence. And maybe Stefanski saw some things he liked but couldn't risk shaking up the Line so late in the year. It wouldn't surprise me if Kevin put in the good word on keeping Jones.
Either way, if he even makes the Roster he's like the 3rd option at best to replace Elf. That's not too shaby.
The Kline signing is also potentially big. When I look around the League the better Lines usually have an under-the-radar signing starting. Like Glowinski in Indy, arguably the best Line out there. Lost his starting job in Seattle, which was going through a bad time with that unit. Lands with the Colts and plays great with a Rookie next to him at RT.
There's already been plenty written here about how he's played much better in a ZBS than the one he played in last year.
But lets say the change in scenery doesn't cure what ailed him. You've still got Collins, Samia and Jones.
One name I haven't even mentioned is Dakota Dozier, whom Rick coached last year with NYJ. Former 4th Round pick. Some legit dark horse potential here. Kline's got a ton more starts between NE and Tennessee but Dozier might have an untapped higher ceiling. Or not even make the team at all. Danny Isadora could improve or be gone as well.
Legit, deep competition along the Interior of the Line. With a nice mix of vets and youth. Sure, questions with all of them. But upside, and again, depth, which I can't overstate, will provide the IOL Starters and just as importantly, quality backups
And now there's Udo to compete with Hill. Interesting to see how they both respond to the coaching. Can Hill get better? How quickly can Udo and his great measurables develop? Not a bad battle for the swing Tackle spot.
I'm expecting League Average this year with significant improvement coming the year after.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ StickyBun said:
When did you need to be a super athlete to play OG? Its the easiest position on the offensive line. Bradbury is a much better player at center than Elflein, but Elf can be a decent guard in the NFL. Aviante Collins is going to be heard from before the final shuffling of the starters in that unit get set in early September. Samia might be a guy that gets 2-3 games at the end of the season at OG starting if he keeps working on strength and movement, he's got good upside.
I feel better about this line's potential, especially for the 2020 season and another Draft next year that includes an OL in the first 3 rounds.
I think they're 1 more OT away from being a legit Line. And a young one minus Jones, who just may be the new Berger of this Unit as the veteran interior swing guy.
Young, and about to get some serious coaching. Scarnechia in NE is regarded as the best in the business. Came out of retirement and took the exact same Starters from chicken shit to chicken salad.
Dennison and Kubiak aren't too far behind. Not a lot of HOF guys on Gary's Lines in Denver or Houston. But man could they run the rock! With Joe Schmoe RBs.
Elf might not fit their preferred skillset 100% but I bet they love his intelligence and toughness. I'm with Geoff that he was never fully himself last year.
But what if he doesn't bounce back? Kline can slide over and Samia can come in. Maybe more likely that, if healthy, Collins takes it outright and prevents any shuffling at all.
And they also have Jones. Look, Flop and the Wonder Twins completely wasted having him on the Roster last year. There's simply no way he wasn't better than Compton or Remmers in practice. But the Offensive Coaches were clueless.
In comes the very experienced Kubiak and Dennison and all the sudden Jones is re-signed. Not a coincidence. And maybe Stefanski saw some things he liked but couldn't risk shaking up the Line so late in the year. It wouldn't surprise me if Kevin put in the good word on keeping Jones.
Either way, if he even makes the Roster he's like the 3rd option at best to replace Elf. That's not too shaby.
The Kline signing is also potentially big. When I look around the League the better Lines usually have an under-the-radar signing starting. Like Glowinski in Indy, arguably the best Line out there. Lost his starting job in Seattle, which was going through a bad time with that unit. Lands with the Colts and plays great with a Rookie next to him at RT.
There's already been plenty written here about how he's played much better in a ZBS than the one he played in last year.
But lets say the change in scenery doesn't cure what ailed him. You've still got Collins, Samia and Jones.
One name I haven't even mentioned is Dakota Dozier, whom Rick coached last year with NYJ. Former 4th Round pick. Some legit dark horse potential here. Kline's got a ton more starts between NE and Tennessee but Dozier might have an untapped higher ceiling. Or not even make the team at all. Danny Isadora could improve or be gone as well.
Legit, deep competition along the Interior of the Line. With a nice mix of vets and youth. Sure, questions with all of them. But upside, and again, depth, which I can't overstate, will provide the IOL Starters and just as importantly, quality backups
And now there's Udo to compete with Hill. Interesting to see how they both respond to the coaching. Can Hill get better? How quickly can Udo and his great measurables develop? Not a bad battle for the swing Tackle spot.
I'm expecting League Average this year with significant improvement coming the year after.
Good rundown of the options and what it means is that this unit has some good possibilities - which, in many years past, they have not.
Now, one thing I hope to see is this team keeping 10 OL on the roster. Their tendency under Zimmer has been to keep 9 at most, even when we have had other areas inexplicably overstaffed: I believe we had 5 safeties at the beginning of last season, we kept 7 WRs for a good chunk of 2017, and of course Zimmer wants 9-10 defensive linemen. Maybe the OL players have been weaker overall talents, but 8-9 OL means we are immediately thin with any injuries, and every backup has to be game-ready at multiple positions, so we can't keep anyone on the roster to develop and guys like Colby Gossett get plucked by others.
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