Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more
than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we
started the worst guard tandem in the league.
You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under
our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as
last year. Last year we didn’t draft a
guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT. This year, I would hope that even if we don’t
take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and
getting stuck with the leftovers.
I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT, he was adequate at best. ONeill was good and in some games very damn good. that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.
Remmers 2017 PFF at RT: 72.1, #36 T
O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT:
63.0, #50 T
Berger 2017 PFF at RG:
77.6, #18 G
Remmers 2018 PFF at RG:
59.2, #48 G
Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG:
65.8, #21 G
PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.
Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.
Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill). With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more
than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we
started the worst guard tandem in the league.
You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under
our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as
last year. Last year we didn’t draft a
guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT. This year, I would hope that even if we don’t
take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and
getting stuck with the leftovers.
I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT, he was adequate at best. ONeill was good and in some games very damn good. that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.
Remmers 2017 PFF at RT: 72.1, #36 T
O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT:
63.0, #50 T
Berger 2017 PFF at RG:
77.6, #18 G
Remmers 2018 PFF at RG:
59.2, #48 G
Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG:
65.8, #21 G
PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.
Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.
Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill). With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.
What i liked best about Oneil, and any lineman for that matter—is their guy hitting our Qb in the teeth and/or are they getting called for drive killing holding penalties? I agree and wanted Hernandez last year but Oneil was a better RT than Remmers in my observation for those reasons
Quote: @medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more
than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we
started the worst guard tandem in the league.
You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under
our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as
last year. Last year we didn’t draft a
guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT. This year, I would hope that even if we don’t
take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and
getting stuck with the leftovers.
I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT, he was adequate at best. ONeill was good and in some games very damn good. that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.
Remmers 2017 PFF at RT: 72.1, #36 T
O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT:
63.0, #50 T
Berger 2017 PFF at RG:
77.6, #18 G
Remmers 2018 PFF at RG:
59.2, #48 G
Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG:
65.8, #21 G
PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.
Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.
Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill). With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.
i dont consider PFF much of a source on line play, sorry. eye ball test had me less than impressed with remmers play at OT 2 years ago and more than impressed with ONeills results. they can make up numbers if they want to , but as a fan that has watched every single snap (multiple times) over those 2 years I say we improved the position and it will only get better as the kid gets more experience and size.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Last year the Vikings could have taken Will Hernandez, but decided to pass. We all speculated that Hernandez was not an athleticism fit--a zone fit. That seems to have been confirmed by comments made recently by Mike Zimmer, who, referring to last year's draft, said something like "if he doesn't fit your scheme, he doesn't help you." It's pretty obvious that he was defending the Vikings choice to pass on Hernandez to the frustration of many fans, myself included.
Now we all know the Vikings have certain size and athleticism parameters for every position. I don't know what they are (maybe Geoff does?) But I know for offensive line, the 3-cone is typically the key metric. So how do the two compare?
Cody Ford
6-4, 329, 34-inch arms
40-5.21, BP-19, Vert-28.5, Broad-104, 3-cone-8.27, shuttle-4.87
Will Hernandez
6-2, 327, 32-inch arms
40-5.15, BP-37, Vert-24, Broad-104, 3-cone-7.59, shuttle-4.7
Just saying....might be a good idea to lock up your sharp objects on draft night.
Some very good cone and shuttle times: Bradbury, Dillard, Lindstrom, McGary, Risner. Some bad ones: Jonah, Ford, McCoy, Howard (last two surprised me).
I think the word is maybe getting out on Ford so you are likely onto something. early on he was consistently mocked in the mid teens, now I am seeing him in the early to mid 20s on some.
personally I am still more of an eyeball guy, but metrics like the cone and shuttle drills are really telling for me about how explosive an athlete is. 40 times and bench presses dont mean much to me as long as they arent glaringly bad... give me game tape IMO.
Cody Ford passes whatever game tape standard you want to throw out there. But then so did Hernandez IMO. They're very similar players. Big, good mobility for their size, high motor, high effort. Biggest difference is their length. Hernandez is a guard only. But Ford has the length to stay at tackle if you wanted him to. Just wanted to point out that if the Vikings have a 3-cone standard, he may not pass it. Course, like Geoff says, maybe it's tied to other metrics.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Last year the Vikings could have taken Will Hernandez, but decided to pass. We all speculated that Hernandez was not an athleticism fit--a zone fit. That seems to have been confirmed by comments made recently by Mike Zimmer, who, referring to last year's draft, said something like "if he doesn't fit your scheme, he doesn't help you." It's pretty obvious that he was defending the Vikings choice to pass on Hernandez to the frustration of many fans, myself included.
Now we all know the Vikings have certain size and athleticism parameters for every position. I don't know what they are (maybe Geoff does?) But I know for offensive line, the 3-cone is typically the key metric. So how do the two compare?
Cody Ford
6-4, 329, 34-inch arms
40-5.21, BP-19, Vert-28.5, Broad-104, 3-cone-8.27, shuttle-4.87
Will Hernandez
6-2, 327, 32-inch arms
40-5.15, BP-37, Vert-24, Broad-104, 3-cone-7.59, shuttle-4.7
Just saying....might be a good idea to lock up your sharp objects on draft night.
Some very good cone and shuttle times: Bradbury, Dillard, Lindstrom, McGary, Risner. Some bad ones: Jonah, Ford, McCoy, Howard (last two surprised me).
I think the word is maybe getting out on Ford so you are likely onto something. early on he was consistently mocked in the mid teens, now I am seeing him in the early to mid 20s on some.
personally I am still more of an eyeball guy, but metrics like the cone and shuttle drills are really telling for me about how explosive an athlete is. 40 times and bench presses dont mean much to me as long as they arent glaringly bad... give me game tape IMO.
Cody Ford passes whatever game tape standard you want to throw out there. But then so did Hernandez IMO. They're very similar players. Big, good mobility for their size, high motor, high effort. Biggest difference is their length. Hernandez is a guard only. But Ford has the length to stay at tackle if you wanted him to. Just wanted to point out that if the Vikings have a 3-cone standard, he may not pass it. Course, like Geoff says, maybe it's tied to other metrics.
I havent watched much tape on any of them this year. to many things to do all the time. I thought when the kids got out of HS life would slow down.. couldnt have been more wrong.
Quote: @Bullazin said:
@ medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more
than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we
started the worst guard tandem in the league.
You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under
our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as
last year. Last year we didn’t draft a
guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT. This year, I would hope that even if we don’t
take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and
getting stuck with the leftovers.
I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT, he was adequate at best. ONeill was good and in some games very damn good. that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.
Remmers 2017 PFF at RT: 72.1, #36 T
O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT:
63.0, #50 T
Berger 2017 PFF at RG:
77.6, #18 G
Remmers 2018 PFF at RG:
59.2, #48 G
Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG:
65.8, #21 G
PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.
Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.
Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill). With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.
What i liked best about Oneil, and any lineman for that matter—is their guy hitting our Qb in the teeth and/or are they getting called for drive killing holding penalties? I agree and wanted Hernandez last year but Oneil was a better RT than Remmers in my observation for those reasons
That’s a point, which I think you can acceptably argue, but
it’s corollary is should we take a Jawan Taylor and upgrade our RT spot
again? I would suggest the answer to
that should be a resounding no, for the same reason it should have been a no
last year. Ignoring your biggest weaknesses
to gain a small amount of improvement at an already stable spot that you’ve
already heavily invested in is dumb. We
lost an entire year in our window because we were gambling on almost every
position on the OLine.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ Bullazin said:
@ medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more
than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we
started the worst guard tandem in the league.
You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under
our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as
last year. Last year we didn’t draft a
guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT. This year, I would hope that even if we don’t
take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and
getting stuck with the leftovers.
I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT, he was adequate at best. ONeill was good and in some games very damn good. that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.
Remmers 2017 PFF at RT: 72.1, #36 T
O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT:
63.0, #50 T
Berger 2017 PFF at RG:
77.6, #18 G
Remmers 2018 PFF at RG:
59.2, #48 G
Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG:
65.8, #21 G
PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.
Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.
Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill). With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.
What i liked best about Oneil, and any lineman for that matter—is their guy hitting our Qb in the teeth and/or are they getting called for drive killing holding penalties? I agree and wanted Hernandez last year but Oneil was a better RT than Remmers in my observation for those reasons
That’s a point, which I think you can acceptably argue, but
it’s corollary is should we take a Jawan Taylor and upgrade our RT spot
again? I would suggest the answer to
that should be a resounding no, for the same reason it should have been a no
last year. Ignoring your biggest weaknesses
to gain a small amount of improvement at an already stable spot that you’ve
already heavily invested in is dumb. We
lost an entire year in our window because we were gambling on almost every
position on the OLine.
I think Remmers 2017 performance coupled with his contract going into a year where we were hungry for cap space is what pushed that pick up the board a bit. IMO that is why Hughes was taken as well. If the team is going to be paying a QB nearly 30 million a year, they are going to need to be moving our high priced talent at other positions down the road. I wouldnt be surprised to see OT again to free up space next year by moving Reiff out the door next.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ Bullazin said:
@ medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more
than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we
started the worst guard tandem in the league.
You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under
our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as
last year. Last year we didn’t draft a
guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT. This year, I would hope that even if we don’t
take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and
getting stuck with the leftovers.
I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT, he was adequate at best. ONeill was good and in some games very damn good. that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.
Remmers 2017 PFF at RT: 72.1, #36 T
O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT:
63.0, #50 T
Berger 2017 PFF at RG:
77.6, #18 G
Remmers 2018 PFF at RG:
59.2, #48 G
Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG:
65.8, #21 G
PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.
Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.
Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill). With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.
What i liked best about Oneil, and any lineman for that matter—is their guy hitting our Qb in the teeth and/or are they getting called for drive killing holding penalties? I agree and wanted Hernandez last year but Oneil was a better RT than Remmers in my observation for those reasons
That’s a point, which I think you can acceptably argue, but
it’s corollary is should we take a Jawan Taylor and upgrade our RT spot
again? I would suggest the answer to
that should be a resounding no, for the same reason it should have been a no
last year. Ignoring your biggest weaknesses
to gain a small amount of improvement at an already stable spot that you’ve
already heavily invested in is dumb. We
lost an entire year in our window because we were gambling on almost every
position on the OLine.
true we seem to have missed on Hernandez whom many on this board wanted and because of that we have a snowball effect. So maybe we will have Lindstrom on our board at 18 but for me if that happens its a sure trade down, cause when i look at Lindstrom i dont see Zack Martin. I just dont see value at our position of need LG. Im not even that into jonah williams at 18 and ive seen him #3 overall in recent mocks
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ AGRforever said:
I hate the idea of "reaching" but we NEED at least 1 starter on the OL this draft. It has to happen. So whether that be in round 1 or 2 we have to find that guy who we think can get it done this year.
IMO, Taylor, Williams, Dillard, Ford, Bradbury, Risner, and Lindstrom are immediate starters. About half will be available at 18. I don't think any will be available at 50. Up next are McCoy, Jenkins, Little, Cajuste and McGary. About half will be available at 50, but I'm not sure you can call them immediate starters. What's more, no guards. Two are centers, three are tackles.
In other words, it could be very tempting for the Vikings if a 3T like Gary or Oliver drops to 18, but if we go that route, the OL we end up with may not be the plug and play starter we're all hoping for.
Again I'm no draft expert. I've watched approximately zero minutes of college football this year. But what I can shout from the rooftops is we need OL help badly. I "get" that it'd be nice to get a stud DT but this may be the year where we just need to reach and be done with it. We absolutely need a starter and it probably needs to come from round 1.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Last year the Vikings could have taken Will Hernandez, but decided to pass. We all speculated that Hernandez was not an athleticism fit--a zone fit. That seems to have been confirmed by comments made recently by Mike Zimmer, who, referring to last year's draft, said something like "if he doesn't fit your scheme, he doesn't help you." It's pretty obvious that he was defending the Vikings choice to pass on Hernandez to the frustration of many fans, myself included.
Now we all know the Vikings have certain size and athleticism parameters for every position. I don't know what they are (maybe Geoff does?) But I know for offensive line, the 3-cone is typically the key metric. So how do the two compare?
Cody Ford
6-4, 329, 34-inch arms
40-5.21, BP-19, Vert-28.5, Broad-104, 3-cone-8.27, shuttle-4.87
Will Hernandez
6-2, 327, 32-inch arms
40-5.15, BP-37, Vert-24, Broad-104, 3-cone-7.59, shuttle-4.7
Just saying....might be a good idea to lock up your sharp objects on draft night.
Some very good cone and shuttle times: Bradbury, Dillard, Lindstrom, McGary, Risner. Some bad ones: Jonah, Ford, McCoy, Howard (last two surprised me).
I think the word is maybe getting out on Ford so you are likely onto something. early on he was consistently mocked in the mid teens, now I am seeing him in the early to mid 20s on some.
personally I am still more of an eyeball guy, but metrics like the cone and shuttle drills are really telling for me about how explosive an athlete is. 40 times and bench presses dont mean much to me as long as they arent glaringly bad... give me game tape IMO.
Cody Ford passes whatever game tape standard you want to throw out there. But then so did Hernandez IMO. They're very similar players. Big, good mobility for their size, high motor, high effort. Biggest difference is their length. Hernandez is a guard only. But Ford has the length to stay at tackle if you wanted him to. Just wanted to point out that if the Vikings have a 3-cone standard, he may not pass it. Course, like Geoff says, maybe it's tied to other metrics.
If I find some time maybe I'll dig in to see if there is a common coefficient within position groups.
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