It will really come down to how "forced" the Cardinals are into taking Murray. The perception of his ability in the NFL will drive Rosen's value.
If Murray is viewed behind the scenes as a true stud that the Cardinals would be stupid to not draft I think people will view Rosen like a prospect.
If Murray is viewed behind the scenes as a 2nd rounder that the Cardinals are reaching for I think people will raise eyebrows and wonder what the hell is going on with the guy.
I'm confused why there isn't more hype and attention around his potentially availability with how "in" the media is going on Murray to Arizona. You'd think his potentially availability would rock the draft for teams thinking QB, but it seems like the harder Murray to Arizona is sold the more Rosen is brought down to justify.
I thought the guy didn't play very well, but as soon as Murray to Arizona took off I've wondered off and on if Rosen could be had cheap enough to backup Cousins and maybe give us an extra year of breathing room to figure out the position. I like the "idea," ... It's just not that exciting based off Rosen's play... there are always grumblings of his personality being off...
i'd give up peanuts to experiment with this but that's about it. He's already a year into his deal and has 3 years, or an optionally expensive 4th, left. That'd only be 1 or 2 years beyond Cousins, and we'd have to commit to that final year (or not) before he ever played. Kirk Cousins could have a career year next season and earn an extension - how much value is there potentially not with Rosen and what are you OK with losing to find that out? I think we're talking a 4th rounder at the most extreme there...
I really like Rosen and he would probably be the first or second QB taken if he were in this draft, but I really think that we want Kirk to be the long term answer as we have 84 million invested in him.
Quote: @Canthony said:
I really like Rosen and he would probably be the first or second QB taken if he were in this draft, but I really think that we want Kirk to be the long term answer as we have 84 million invested in him.
we have him for 2 years and then... nothing. so they need to decide if Sloter is the future and if not they need to get their next guy in the fold now. Even though Rosen has some experience as a starter... he could still benefit from some learning from the bench and if all we had to invest was a third rounder or to swap Waynes or Alexander and picks to make it right... if anybody thinks he is starter potential... get it done.
Quote: @BlackMagic7 said:
It will really come down to how "forced" the Cardinals are into taking Murray. The perception of his ability in the NFL will drive Rosen's value.
If Murray is viewed behind the scenes as a true stud that the Cardinals would be stupid to not draft I think people will view Rosen like a prospect.
If Murray is viewed behind the scenes as a 2nd rounder that the Cardinals are reaching for I think people will raise eyebrows and wonder what the hell is going on with the guy.
There is a 3rd possible view: that the Cardinals are reaching for Murray, but not because they decided Rosen was a wasted pick. Are they reaching for Murray because they are an incompetent organization that hired a surprisingly-unqualified head coach who seems to want a Manziel-type QB? In that case, NFL teams will pounce on Rosen like a ribeye steak discarded by the village idiot who threw it away to eat a corn dog.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
I really like Rosen and he would probably be the first or second QB taken if he were in this draft, but I really think that we want Kirk to be the long term answer as we have 84 million invested in him.
we have him for 2 years and then... nothing. so they need to decide if Sloter is the future and if not they need to get their next guy in the fold now. Even though Rosen has some experience as a starter... he could still benefit from some learning from the bench and if all we had to invest was a third rounder or to swap Waynes or Alexander and picks to make it right... if anybody thinks he is starter potential... get it done.
This is where I diverge with a lot of people arguing for Rosen or a QB draftee: I don't think Rick Spielman is planning, or will, for a QB scenario with Cousins leaving after 2020.
If Cousins leads the Vikings to some playoff success, Spielman will try to resign him. Yeah, people are down on him NOW and that may even include some people running the team. But do you think they are planning on a couple more non-playoff seasons? I doubt that. Spielman convinced the Wilfs that Cousins was worth a bet of $84M and he can't be especially comfortable saying, "Oops, I was wrong about a quarterback again, silly me! Let me try again even though we still owe Kirk $56M."
But if all doubts about Cousins are proven true, and the Vikings and Cousins stagnate or decline this season, is Spielman going to be the architect of the post-Cousins team? Let's hope the Wilfs don't think so. One constant of Spielman's tenure has been uncertainty at QB, and you could make a good argument that "find a winning QB" is about the top requirement to be a good GM.
So I really think Spielman is, and has to be, ALL IN on helping Cousins succeed in 2019 - not preparing for life after him. Besides, he has NEVER put much into grooming a pipeline of talent at the position. He could have drafted alternatives for Ponder but didn't until he had completely given up on him. He didn't have a strong backup behind Bridgewater.
Anyway, it would probably be a waste if we did start grooming someone, then the Vikings suck this year and the Wilfs clean house. The next coach and GM aren't likely to want Josh Rosen (or Clayton Thorsen or whoever) any more than Kliff Kingsbury does.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
I really like Rosen and he would probably be the first or second QB taken if he were in this draft, but I really think that we want Kirk to be the long term answer as we have 84 million invested in him.
we have him for 2 years and then... nothing. so they need to decide if Sloter is the future and if not they need to get their next guy in the fold now. Even though Rosen has some experience as a starter... he could still benefit from some learning from the bench and if all we had to invest was a third rounder or to swap Waynes or Alexander and picks to make it right... if anybody thinks he is starter potential... get it done.
This is where I diverge with a lot of people arguing for Rosen or a QB draftee: I don't think Rick Spielman is planning, or will, for a QB scenario with Cousins leaving after 2020.
If Cousins leads the Vikings to some playoff success, Spielman will try to resign him. Yeah, people are down on him NOW and that may even include some people running the team. But do you think they are planning on a couple more non-playoff seasons? I doubt that. Spielman convinced the Wilfs that Cousins was worth a bet of $84M and he can't be especially comfortable saying, "Oops, I was wrong about a quarterback again, silly me! Let me try again even though we still owe Kirk $56M."
But if all doubts about Cousins are proven true, and the Vikings and Cousins stagnate or decline this season, is Spielman going to be the architect of the post-Cousins team? Let's hope the Wilfs don't think so. One constant of Spielman's tenure has been uncertainty at QB, and you could make a good argument that "find a winning QB" is about the top requirement to be a good GM.
So I really think Spielman is, and has to be, ALL IN on helping Cousins succeed in 2019 - not preparing for life after him. Besides, he has NEVER put much into grooming a pipeline of talent at the position. He could have drafted alternatives for Ponder but didn't until he had completely given up on him. He didn't have a strong backup behind Bridgewater.
Anyway, it would probably be a waste if we did start grooming someone, then the Vikings suck this year and the Wilfs clean house. The next coach and GM aren't likely to want Josh Rosen (or Clayton Thorsen or whoever) any more than Kliff Kingsbury does.
I see the all in approach, but I also think failure to plan for Cousins failing or getting lured away in FA is a fireable offense as well for a GM... there always should be a back up plan, especially at a position as important as QB. Lets say KC does leave through no fault of the team, he plays good enough to merit a new deal, but he isnt happy and decides to move on, if the team doesnt have a player in the machine to take his spot... once again Rick should be fired. They need a viable #2, Rosen.... Sloter.. or a decent draft pick prospect, its in Ricks best interest to make sure he has an heir apparent no matter how this all shakes out.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
I really like Rosen and he would probably be the first or second QB taken if he were in this draft, but I really think that we want Kirk to be the long term answer as we have 84 million invested in him.
we have him for 2 years and then... nothing. so they need to decide if Sloter is the future and if not they need to get their next guy in the fold now. Even though Rosen has some experience as a starter... he could still benefit from some learning from the bench and if all we had to invest was a third rounder or to swap Waynes or Alexander and picks to make it right... if anybody thinks he is starter potential... get it done.
This is where I diverge with a lot of people arguing for Rosen or a QB draftee: I don't think Rick Spielman is planning, or will, for a QB scenario with Cousins leaving after 2020.
If Cousins leads the Vikings to some playoff success, Spielman will try to resign him. Yeah, people are down on him NOW and that may even include some people running the team. But do you think they are planning on a couple more non-playoff seasons? I doubt that. Spielman convinced the Wilfs that Cousins was worth a bet of $84M and he can't be especially comfortable saying, "Oops, I was wrong about a quarterback again, silly me! Let me try again even though we still owe Kirk $56M."
But if all doubts about Cousins are proven true, and the Vikings and Cousins stagnate or decline this season, is Spielman going to be the architect of the post-Cousins team? Let's hope the Wilfs don't think so. One constant of Spielman's tenure has been uncertainty at QB, and you could make a good argument that "find a winning QB" is about the top requirement to be a good GM.
So I really think Spielman is, and has to be, ALL IN on helping Cousins succeed in 2019 - not preparing for life after him. Besides, he has NEVER put much into grooming a pipeline of talent at the position. He could have drafted alternatives for Ponder but didn't until he had completely given up on him. He didn't have a strong backup behind Bridgewater.
Anyway, it would probably be a waste if we did start grooming someone, then the Vikings suck this year and the Wilfs clean house. The next coach and GM aren't likely to want Josh Rosen (or Clayton Thorsen or whoever) any more than Kliff Kingsbury does.
I see the all in approach, but I also think failure to plan for Cousins failing or getting lured away in FA is a fireable offense as well for a GM... there always should be a back up plan, especially at a position as important as QB. Lets say KC does leave through no fault of the team, he plays good enough to merit a new deal, but he isnt happy and decides to move on, if the team doesnt have a player in the machine to take his spot... once again Rick should be fired. They need a viable #2, Rosen.... Sloter.. or a decent draft pick prospect, its in Ricks best interest to make sure he has an heir apparent no matter how this all shakes out.
Not disagreeing with your thinking - but I don't think Spielman does. And he has to look at this from the perspective of, "instead of trading a 2nd-rounder for Rosen, could we use that pick for an OG who might start some time in 2019?" It reminds me a bit of the Packers drafting Rodgers while Favre was still in his prime, which really irritated him because they could have given him another WR or such. Picking Rodgers has been proclaimed an act of genius, but would Favre have won a couple more titles for the Packers in his last 5 seasons if they had picked Roddy White or Logan Mankins?
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
I really like Rosen and he would probably be the first or second QB taken if he were in this draft, but I really think that we want Kirk to be the long term answer as we have 84 million invested in him.
we have him for 2 years and then... nothing. so they need to decide if Sloter is the future and if not they need to get their next guy in the fold now. Even though Rosen has some experience as a starter... he could still benefit from some learning from the bench and if all we had to invest was a third rounder or to swap Waynes or Alexander and picks to make it right... if anybody thinks he is starter potential... get it done.
This is where I diverge with a lot of people arguing for Rosen or a QB draftee: I don't think Rick Spielman is planning, or will, for a QB scenario with Cousins leaving after 2020.
If Cousins leads the Vikings to some playoff success, Spielman will try to resign him. Yeah, people are down on him NOW and that may even include some people running the team. But do you think they are planning on a couple more non-playoff seasons? I doubt that. Spielman convinced the Wilfs that Cousins was worth a bet of $84M and he can't be especially comfortable saying, "Oops, I was wrong about a quarterback again, silly me! Let me try again even though we still owe Kirk $56M."
But if all doubts about Cousins are proven true, and the Vikings and Cousins stagnate or decline this season, is Spielman going to be the architect of the post-Cousins team? Let's hope the Wilfs don't think so. One constant of Spielman's tenure has been uncertainty at QB, and you could make a good argument that "find a winning QB" is about the top requirement to be a good GM.
So I really think Spielman is, and has to be, ALL IN on helping Cousins succeed in 2019 - not preparing for life after him. Besides, he has NEVER put much into grooming a pipeline of talent at the position. He could have drafted alternatives for Ponder but didn't until he had completely given up on him. He didn't have a strong backup behind Bridgewater.
Anyway, it would probably be a waste if we did start grooming someone, then the Vikings suck this year and the Wilfs clean house. The next coach and GM aren't likely to want Josh Rosen (or Clayton Thorsen or whoever) any more than Kliff Kingsbury does.
I see the all in approach, but I also think failure to plan for Cousins failing or getting lured away in FA is a fireable offense as well for a GM... there always should be a back up plan, especially at a position as important as QB. Lets say KC does leave through no fault of the team, he plays good enough to merit a new deal, but he isnt happy and decides to move on, if the team doesnt have a player in the machine to take his spot... once again Rick should be fired. They need a viable #2, Rosen.... Sloter.. or a decent draft pick prospect, its in Ricks best interest to make sure he has an heir apparent no matter how this all shakes out.
Not disagreeing with your thinking - but I don't think Spielman does. And he has to look at this from the perspective of, "instead of trading a 2nd-rounder for Rosen, could we use that pick for an OG who might start some time in 2019?" It reminds me a bit of the Packers drafting Rodgers while Favre was still in his prime, which really irritated him because they could have given him another WR or such. Picking Rodgers has been proclaimed an act of genius, but would Favre have won a couple more titles for the Packers in his last 5 seasons if they had picked Roddy White or Logan Mankins?
rumor is the asking price for Rosen is a third rounder.... rumors though.
I still think players and picks should get done, I value Waynes as a 2nd rounder, if they have a 3rd on Rosen do the deal and they throw in their 5th round pick to balance it out.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
I really like Rosen and he would probably be the first or second QB taken if he were in this draft, but I really think that we want Kirk to be the long term answer as we have 84 million invested in him.
we have him for 2 years and then... nothing. so they need to decide if Sloter is the future and if not they need to get their next guy in the fold now. Even though Rosen has some experience as a starter... he could still benefit from some learning from the bench and if all we had to invest was a third rounder or to swap Waynes or Alexander and picks to make it right... if anybody thinks he is starter potential... get it done.
This is where I diverge with a lot of people arguing for Rosen or a QB draftee: I don't think Rick Spielman is planning, or will, for a QB scenario with Cousins leaving after 2020.
If Cousins leads the Vikings to some playoff success, Spielman will try to resign him. Yeah, people are down on him NOW and that may even include some people running the team. But do you think they are planning on a couple more non-playoff seasons? I doubt that. Spielman convinced the Wilfs that Cousins was worth a bet of $84M and he can't be especially comfortable saying, "Oops, I was wrong about a quarterback again, silly me! Let me try again even though we still owe Kirk $56M."
But if all doubts about Cousins are proven true, and the Vikings and Cousins stagnate or decline this season, is Spielman going to be the architect of the post-Cousins team? Let's hope the Wilfs don't think so. One constant of Spielman's tenure has been uncertainty at QB, and you could make a good argument that "find a winning QB" is about the top requirement to be a good GM.
So I really think Spielman is, and has to be, ALL IN on helping Cousins succeed in 2019 - not preparing for life after him. Besides, he has NEVER put much into grooming a pipeline of talent at the position. He could have drafted alternatives for Ponder but didn't until he had completely given up on him. He didn't have a strong backup behind Bridgewater.
Anyway, it would probably be a waste if we did start grooming someone, then the Vikings suck this year and the Wilfs clean house. The next coach and GM aren't likely to want Josh Rosen (or Clayton Thorsen or whoever) any more than Kliff Kingsbury does.
I see the all in approach, but I also think failure to plan for Cousins failing or getting lured away in FA is a fireable offense as well for a GM... there always should be a back up plan, especially at a position as important as QB. Lets say KC does leave through no fault of the team, he plays good enough to merit a new deal, but he isnt happy and decides to move on, if the team doesnt have a player in the machine to take his spot... once again Rick should be fired. They need a viable #2, Rosen.... Sloter.. or a decent draft pick prospect, its in Ricks best interest to make sure he has an heir apparent no matter how this all shakes out.
Not disagreeing with your thinking - but I don't think Spielman does. And he has to look at this from the perspective of, "instead of trading a 2nd-rounder for Rosen, could we use that pick for an OG who might start some time in 2019?" It reminds me a bit of the Packers drafting Rodgers while Favre was still in his prime, which really irritated him because they could have given him another WR or such. Picking Rodgers has been proclaimed an act of genius, but would Favre have won a couple more titles for the Packers in his last 5 seasons if they had picked Roddy White or Logan Mankins?
rumor is the asking price for Rosen is a third rounder.... rumors though.
I still think players and picks should get done, I value Waynes as a 2nd rounder, if they have a 3rd on Rosen do the deal and they throw in their 5th round pick to balance it out.
True about rumors. But - whose third rounder? Ours won't outbid a lot of other QB-needy teams.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
I really like Rosen and he would probably be the first or second QB taken if he were in this draft, but I really think that we want Kirk to be the long term answer as we have 84 million invested in him.
we have him for 2 years and then... nothing. so they need to decide if Sloter is the future and if not they need to get their next guy in the fold now. Even though Rosen has some experience as a starter... he could still benefit from some learning from the bench and if all we had to invest was a third rounder or to swap Waynes or Alexander and picks to make it right... if anybody thinks he is starter potential... get it done.
This is where I diverge with a lot of people arguing for Rosen or a QB draftee: I don't think Rick Spielman is planning, or will, for a QB scenario with Cousins leaving after 2020.
If Cousins leads the Vikings to some playoff success, Spielman will try to resign him. Yeah, people are down on him NOW and that may even include some people running the team. But do you think they are planning on a couple more non-playoff seasons? I doubt that. Spielman convinced the Wilfs that Cousins was worth a bet of $84M and he can't be especially comfortable saying, "Oops, I was wrong about a quarterback again, silly me! Let me try again even though we still owe Kirk $56M."
But if all doubts about Cousins are proven true, and the Vikings and Cousins stagnate or decline this season, is Spielman going to be the architect of the post-Cousins team? Let's hope the Wilfs don't think so. One constant of Spielman's tenure has been uncertainty at QB, and you could make a good argument that "find a winning QB" is about the top requirement to be a good GM.
So I really think Spielman is, and has to be, ALL IN on helping Cousins succeed in 2019 - not preparing for life after him. Besides, he has NEVER put much into grooming a pipeline of talent at the position. He could have drafted alternatives for Ponder but didn't until he had completely given up on him. He didn't have a strong backup behind Bridgewater.
Anyway, it would probably be a waste if we did start grooming someone, then the Vikings suck this year and the Wilfs clean house. The next coach and GM aren't likely to want Josh Rosen (or Clayton Thorsen or whoever) any more than Kliff Kingsbury does.
I see the all in approach, but I also think failure to plan for Cousins failing or getting lured away in FA is a fireable offense as well for a GM... there always should be a back up plan, especially at a position as important as QB. Lets say KC does leave through no fault of the team, he plays good enough to merit a new deal, but he isnt happy and decides to move on, if the team doesnt have a player in the machine to take his spot... once again Rick should be fired. They need a viable #2, Rosen.... Sloter.. or a decent draft pick prospect, its in Ricks best interest to make sure he has an heir apparent no matter how this all shakes out.
Not disagreeing with your thinking - but I don't think Spielman does. And he has to look at this from the perspective of, "instead of trading a 2nd-rounder for Rosen, could we use that pick for an OG who might start some time in 2019?" It reminds me a bit of the Packers drafting Rodgers while Favre was still in his prime, which really irritated him because they could have given him another WR or such. Picking Rodgers has been proclaimed an act of genius, but would Favre have won a couple more titles for the Packers in his last 5 seasons if they had picked Roddy White or Logan Mankins?
rumor is the asking price for Rosen is a third rounder.... rumors though.
I still think players and picks should get done, I value Waynes as a 2nd rounder, if they have a 3rd on Rosen do the deal and they throw in their 5th round pick to balance it out.
True about rumors. But - whose third rounder? Ours won't outbid a lot of other QB-needy teams.
if they are needy, perhaps he isnt their answer? I think he needs some polishing, we have time to wait, others might not and based on his rookie play they may instead choose to go with other options. I dont know, but its worth asking IMO.
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