Imo, you use free agency to fill holes, you use the draft fill those holes with better players long term. I typically agree with not getting into FA bidding wars and over paying unless it's a 1 year deal that won't hurt your long term efforts, but both aspects of the offseason draft and FA have their place depending on how well built your roster is and your cap situation.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Again, one team's FO described this as one of the worst FA Classes in recent memory. And then is exacerbated by too many teams with too much money.
Kwon Alexander? In the Box Safety Landon Collins? Trey Burton? Devin Funchess? Honey Badger? Every single freaking one of these dudes is a contributor on a great team getting paid like that piece that puts your over the hump to getting a ring.
The reality is that the teams giving out these stupid deals are the ones getting humped.
Yep. Happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Buying expensive FAs is not the way to go and never has been in the NFL. Fans continue to have short term dementia as they buy in every offseason. Wash, rinse and repeat. Drafting well is always the optimal way to go, unfortunately the Vikings haven't focused on the offensive line.
True. Seems to me though that the Vikings were one of these teams last year when they spent HUGE in free agency to get Cousins and then could only secure Richardson for one season.
The reason this occurred was because of the terrible, disastrous, panic trade for Bradford. Not only did it cost valuable draft picks that would have put them in position to likely take Watson or Mahomes (assuming Hill loses two more games than Bradford) but it cost them cap space as well which could have been carried over.
I never can understand the thought process of making that trade which signaled an "all in" strategy when that roster was way farther away than last year's roster or this year's roster.
I mean, why not trade a future pick last year to try and get an extra lineman or the one you really wanted? Why not spend more this year to get some much needed help on the offensive line?
This roster has to produce now. Next year there will be more purges (Reiff & Griffen is he stays). Waynes and Rudolph could leave cause they may not be able to extend them if they wait and why would they extend Waynes when they just drafted Hughes.
The window maybe has two years before Smith and Joseph and Rhodes are older.
Yet, they have to be prudent cause spending big does not get you anywhere. Well, not spending also gets you nowhere.
The issue for me is a player like Ju'waun James who they really wanted according to Guru. He signs a ridiculous 52 mil deal averaging 13 mil per year. That is kind of crazy money but the dude turns 27 in June so could be well worth it. And like it or not, right tackles are starting to get paid just like left tackles.
Vikings should have went all in to get him if that is who they wanted. They could have then tried to trade Reiff before cutting him because moving him to guard seems like a very bad idea. Do that and maybe you can still get Saffold.
So, I see them going all in with the stupid arse Bradford trade and now when the roster is stacked they have to be prudent.
Just dumb.
I hope they can salvage something and get Saffold and TJ Lang. Not sure of any others they could sign but I am sure they will be heralded because of the cost.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Again, one team's FO described this as one of the worst FA Classes in recent memory. And then is exacerbated by too many teams with too much money.
Kwon Alexander? In the Box Safety Landon Collins? Trey Burton? Devin Funchess? Honey Badger? Every single freaking one of these dudes is a contributor on a great team getting paid like that piece that puts your over the hump to getting a ring.
The reality is that the teams giving out these stupid deals are the ones getting humped.
Yep. Happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Buying expensive FAs is not the way to go and never has been in the NFL. Fans continue to have short term dementia as they buy in every offseason. Wash, rinse and repeat. Drafting well is always the optimal way to go, unfortunately the Vikings haven't focused on the offensive line.
True. Seems to me though that the Vikings were one of these teams last year when they spent HUGE in free agency to get Cousins and then could only secure Richardson for one season.
The reason this occurred was because of the terrible, disastrous, panic trade for Bradford. Not only did it cost valuable draft picks that would have put them in position to likely take Watson or Mahomes (assuming Hill loses two more games than Bradford) but it cost them cap space as well which could have been carried over.
I never can understand the thought process of making that trade which signaled an "all in" strategy when that roster was way farther away than last year's roster or this year's roster.
I mean, why not trade a future pick last year to try and get an extra lineman or the one you really wanted? Why not spend more this year to get some much needed help on the offensive line?
This roster has to produce now. Next year there will be more purges (Reiff & Griffen is he stays). Waynes and Rudolph could leave cause they may not be able to extend them if they wait and why would they extend Waynes when they just drafted Hughes.
The window maybe has two years before Smith and Joseph and Rhodes are older.
Yet, they have to be prudent cause spending big does not get you anywhere. Well, not spending also gets you nowhere.
The issue for me is a player like Ju'waun James who they really wanted according to Guru. He signs a ridiculous 52 mil deal averaging 13 mil per year. That is kind of crazy money but the dude turns 27 in June so could be well worth it. And like it or not, right tackles are starting to get paid just like left tackles.
Vikings should have went all in to get him if that is who they wanted. They could have then tried to trade Reiff before cutting him because moving him to guard seems like a very bad idea. Do that and maybe you can still get Saffold.
So, I see them going all in with the stupid arse Bradford trade and now when the roster is stacked they have to be prudent.
Just dumb.
I hope they can salvage something and get Saffold and TJ Lang. Not sure of any others they could sign but I am sure they will be heralded because of the cost.
I have to say I agree with most your post. Mostly how disastrous the Bradford trade worked out. Gave up 2 high picks that could have really helped in the long run. I was for it when it went down but admit how wrong I was. You're right never trade from a desperate position. For the record Hill would not have made it past 6 games before his arm fell off. He was throwing weak ducks one game in. We would have ended up using 2 undrafted FA QB's to finish that season. That likely would have been more then a 2 game difference. Like that mattered except the pick we kept would have been better. We have been in panic/desperately seeking mode for a QB for 2 decades. All the more reason to hope Kirk works. It won't as long as they don't build the front end of the offense.
We have great and talented players all over the field. Just seems something is missing huh.
Quote: @suncoastvike said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Again, one team's FO described this as one of the worst FA Classes in recent memory. And then is exacerbated by too many teams with too much money.
Kwon Alexander? In the Box Safety Landon Collins? Trey Burton? Devin Funchess? Honey Badger? Every single freaking one of these dudes is a contributor on a great team getting paid like that piece that puts your over the hump to getting a ring.
The reality is that the teams giving out these stupid deals are the ones getting humped.
Yep. Happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Buying expensive FAs is not the way to go and never has been in the NFL. Fans continue to have short term dementia as they buy in every offseason. Wash, rinse and repeat. Drafting well is always the optimal way to go, unfortunately the Vikings haven't focused on the offensive line.
True. Seems to me though that the Vikings were one of these teams last year when they spent HUGE in free agency to get Cousins and then could only secure Richardson for one season.
The reason this occurred was because of the terrible, disastrous, panic trade for Bradford. Not only did it cost valuable draft picks that would have put them in position to likely take Watson or Mahomes (assuming Hill loses two more games than Bradford) but it cost them cap space as well which could have been carried over.
I never can understand the thought process of making that trade which signaled an "all in" strategy when that roster was way farther away than last year's roster or this year's roster.
I mean, why not trade a future pick last year to try and get an extra lineman or the one you really wanted? Why not spend more this year to get some much needed help on the offensive line?
This roster has to produce now. Next year there will be more purges (Reiff & Griffen is he stays). Waynes and Rudolph could leave cause they may not be able to extend them if they wait and why would they extend Waynes when they just drafted Hughes.
The window maybe has two years before Smith and Joseph and Rhodes are older.
Yet, they have to be prudent cause spending big does not get you anywhere. Well, not spending also gets you nowhere.
The issue for me is a player like Ju'waun James who they really wanted according to Guru. He signs a ridiculous 52 mil deal averaging 13 mil per year. That is kind of crazy money but the dude turns 27 in June so could be well worth it. And like it or not, right tackles are starting to get paid just like left tackles.
Vikings should have went all in to get him if that is who they wanted. They could have then tried to trade Reiff before cutting him because moving him to guard seems like a very bad idea. Do that and maybe you can still get Saffold.
So, I see them going all in with the stupid arse Bradford trade and now when the roster is stacked they have to be prudent.
Just dumb.
I hope they can salvage something and get Saffold and TJ Lang. Not sure of any others they could sign but I am sure they will be heralded because of the cost.
I have to say I agree with most your post. Mostly how disastrous the Bradford trade worked out. Gave up 2 high picks that could have really helped in the long run. I was for it when it went down but admit how wrong I was. You're right never trade from a desperate position. For the record Hill would not have made it past 6 games before his arm fell off. He was throwing weak ducks one game in. We would have ended up using 2 undrafted FA QB's to finish that season. That likely would have been more then a 2 game difference. Like that mattered except the pick we kept would have been better. We have been in panic/desperately seeking mode for a QB for 2 decades. All the more reason to hope Kirk works. It won't as long as they don't build the front end of the offense.
We have great and talented players all over the field. Just seems something is missing huh.
This is why Spielman deserves to be heavily criticized. If the #2 QB on your team is so awful that you cannot rely on him to play the season if need be then you have not done your job as a GM. Why have him on the team at all if that is the case?
If Smith or Joseph or Barr would have went down would they have rolled with the backup or tried to trade for someone paying extra.
The Patriots lost Brady in 2008 or 2009 and rolled with Cassel all season long. They did not panic.
If Case Keenum was the backup that year would the Vikings still make the trade? This is before Keenum had his big season.
There is no excuse NOT to go get James and pay him that money.
Khalil Mack lines up over the right tackle quite often. Von Miller too. Plenty of really good ends are now lining up over the right tackle.
There is still hope.
Saffold, Lang, and Paradis are still out there.
After that, it's just players similar to Remmers IMO.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Again, one team's FO described this as one of the worst FA Classes in recent memory. And then is exacerbated by too many teams with too much money.
Kwon Alexander? In the Box Safety Landon Collins? Trey Burton? Devin Funchess? Honey Badger? Every single freaking one of these dudes is a contributor on a great team getting paid like that piece that puts your over the hump to getting a ring.
The reality is that the teams giving out these stupid deals are the ones getting humped.
Yep. Happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Buying expensive FAs is not the way to go and never has been in the NFL. Fans continue to have short term dementia as they buy in every offseason. Wash, rinse and repeat. Drafting well is always the optimal way to go, unfortunately the Vikings haven't focused on the offensive line.
True. Seems to me though that the Vikings were one of these teams last year when they spent HUGE in free agency to get Cousins and then could only secure Richardson for one season.
The reason this occurred was because of the terrible, disastrous, panic trade for Bradford. Not only did it cost valuable draft picks that would have put them in position to likely take Watson or Mahomes (assuming Hill loses two more games than Bradford) but it cost them cap space as well which could have been carried over.
I never can understand the thought process of making that trade which signaled an "all in" strategy when that roster was way farther away than last year's roster or this year's roster.
I mean, why not trade a future pick last year to try and get an extra lineman or the one you really wanted? Why not spend more this year to get some much needed help on the offensive line?
This roster has to produce now. Next year there will be more purges (Reiff & Griffen is he stays). Waynes and Rudolph could leave cause they may not be able to extend them if they wait and why would they extend Waynes when they just drafted Hughes.
The window maybe has two years before Smith and Joseph and Rhodes are older.
Yet, they have to be prudent cause spending big does not get you anywhere. Well, not spending also gets you nowhere.
The issue for me is a player like Ju'waun James who they really wanted according to Guru. He signs a ridiculous 52 mil deal averaging 13 mil per year. That is kind of crazy money but the dude turns 27 in June so could be well worth it. And like it or not, right tackles are starting to get paid just like left tackles.
Vikings should have went all in to get him if that is who they wanted. They could have then tried to trade Reiff before cutting him because moving him to guard seems like a very bad idea. Do that and maybe you can still get Saffold.
So, I see them going all in with the stupid arse Bradford trade and now when the roster is stacked they have to be prudent.
Just dumb.
I hope they can salvage something and get Saffold and TJ Lang. Not sure of any others they could sign but I am sure they will be heralded because of the cost.
I have to say I agree with most your post. Mostly how disastrous the Bradford trade worked out. Gave up 2 high picks that could have really helped in the long run. I was for it when it went down but admit how wrong I was. You're right never trade from a desperate position. For the record Hill would not have made it past 6 games before his arm fell off. He was throwing weak ducks one game in. We would have ended up using 2 undrafted FA QB's to finish that season. That likely would have been more then a 2 game difference. Like that mattered except the pick we kept would have been better. We have been in panic/desperately seeking mode for a QB for 2 decades. All the more reason to hope Kirk works. It won't as long as they don't build the front end of the offense.
We have great and talented players all over the field. Just seems something is missing huh.
This is why Spielman deserves to be heavily criticized. If the #2 QB on your team is so awful that you cannot rely on him to play the season if need be then you have not done your job as a GM. Why have him on the team at all if that is the case?
If Smith or Joseph or Barr would have went down would they have rolled with the backup or tried to trade for someone paying extra.
The Patriots lost Brady in 2008 or 2009 and rolled with Cassel all season long. They did not panic.
If Case Keenum was the backup that year would the Vikings still make the trade? This is before Keenum had his big season.
There is no excuse NOT to go get James and pay him that money.
Khalil Mack lines up over the right tackle quite often. Von Miller too. Plenty of really good ends are now lining up over the right tackle.
There is still hope.
Saffold, Lang, and Paradis are still out there.
After that, it's just players similar to Remmers IMO.
I don't disagree that Rick was to blame. 2016 was a disaster at the QB position though. It wasn't all on him. Teddy went down and the #3 Heinicke who might have pushed for #2 had he not put his foot through a glass door or something equally stupid. The details excape me now. How often does a team lose #1 and #3 before the season starts? Left with a aging over the Hill QB and a undrafted rookie as your only option. Still in hindsight it would have been better to take our lumps. I did applaud Rick for his bold move. Just forgot how often a desperation trade rarely works during that moment.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Again, one team's FO described this as one of the worst FA Classes in recent memory. And then is exacerbated by too many teams with too much money.
Kwon Alexander? In the Box Safety Landon Collins? Trey Burton? Devin Funchess? Honey Badger? Every single freaking one of these dudes is a contributor on a great team getting paid like that piece that puts your over the hump to getting a ring.
The reality is that the teams giving out these stupid deals are the ones getting humped.
Yep. Happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Buying expensive FAs is not the way to go and never has been in the NFL. Fans continue to have short term dementia as they buy in every offseason. Wash, rinse and repeat. Drafting well is always the optimal way to go, unfortunately the Vikings haven't focused on the offensive line.
True. Seems to me though that the Vikings were one of these teams last year when they spent HUGE in free agency to get Cousins and then could only secure Richardson for one season.
The reason this occurred was because of the terrible, disastrous, panic trade for Bradford. Not only did it cost valuable draft picks that would have put them in position to likely take Watson or Mahomes (assuming Hill loses two more games than Bradford) but it cost them cap space as well which could have been carried over.
I never can understand the thought process of making that trade which signaled an "all in" strategy when that roster was way farther away than last year's roster or this year's roster.
I mean, why not trade a future pick last year to try and get an extra lineman or the one you really wanted? Why not spend more this year to get some much needed help on the offensive line?
This roster has to produce now. Next year there will be more purges (Reiff & Griffen is he stays). Waynes and Rudolph could leave cause they may not be able to extend them if they wait and why would they extend Waynes when they just drafted Hughes.
The window maybe has two years before Smith and Joseph and Rhodes are older.
Yet, they have to be prudent cause spending big does not get you anywhere. Well, not spending also gets you nowhere.
The issue for me is a player like Ju'waun James who they really wanted according to Guru. He signs a ridiculous 52 mil deal averaging 13 mil per year. That is kind of crazy money but the dude turns 27 in June so could be well worth it. And like it or not, right tackles are starting to get paid just like left tackles.
Vikings should have went all in to get him if that is who they wanted. They could have then tried to trade Reiff before cutting him because moving him to guard seems like a very bad idea. Do that and maybe you can still get Saffold.
So, I see them going all in with the stupid arse Bradford trade and now when the roster is stacked they have to be prudent.
Just dumb.
I hope they can salvage something and get Saffold and TJ Lang. Not sure of any others they could sign but I am sure they will be heralded because of the cost.
I have to say I agree with most your post. Mostly how disastrous the Bradford trade worked out. Gave up 2 high picks that could have really helped in the long run. I was for it when it went down but admit how wrong I was. You're right never trade from a desperate position. For the record Hill would not have made it past 6 games before his arm fell off. He was throwing weak ducks one game in. We would have ended up using 2 undrafted FA QB's to finish that season. That likely would have been more then a 2 game difference. Like that mattered except the pick we kept would have been better. We have been in panic/desperately seeking mode for a QB for 2 decades. All the more reason to hope Kirk works. It won't as long as they don't build the front end of the offense.
We have great and talented players all over the field. Just seems something is missing huh.
This is why Spielman deserves to be heavily criticized. If the #2 QB on your team is so awful that you cannot rely on him to play the season if need be then you have not done your job as a GM. Why have him on the team at all if that is the case?
If Smith or Joseph or Barr would have went down would they have rolled with the backup or tried to trade for someone paying extra.
The Patriots lost Brady in 2008 or 2009 and rolled with Cassel all season long. They did not panic.
If Case Keenum was the backup that year would the Vikings still make the trade? This is before Keenum had his big season.
There is no excuse NOT to go get James and pay him that money.
Khalil Mack lines up over the right tackle quite often. Von Miller too. Plenty of really good ends are now lining up over the right tackle.
There is still hope.
Saffold, Lang, and Paradis are still out there.
After that, it's just players similar to Remmers IMO.
Wait, what? You seriously are upset that the team didn't overpay for a strictly Right Tackle who is barely better than average? Then there is obviously no pleasing you period.
Would have been a Grade A Dumbass move to flip O'Neil over to LT after barely half a season at RT just to put a moderately better RT in his place.
I'm actually pissed Rick was even thinking about it.
I'm not that upset about losing James, and I was actually surprised (not pissed tho) that he was a target. Shifting several other players around on the OL makes me nervous - but maybe we all should get ready, because if the new offensive braintrust thinks shuffling was worthwhile just to accommodate James, it could mean they are drawing up plans for a lot of rearrangement regardless.
That said, I'm not sure James' contract was shockingly high. $13M per year? 2 years ago we gave Riley Reiff a deal that averages $11.75M, and a lot of people said he was just a RT trying to play LT, so James' cost 2 years later isn't that much of an inflation. I think the NFL prices just keep rising, and if a 26-year-old player with even above-average performance hits the market, you better plan on paying the going rate if he's in your plans.
OTOH, this thread's OP and a lot of comments are all saying: "Signing free
agents is not the Viking way, we never do that, we're going to find some bargains after all the other teams are done, oh look how much wiser the Vikings' management is than everyone else..." Know what else is "the Viking way"? Our players watching the Super Bowl on TV. Maybe buying a lot of free agents doesn't work (though the Rams and Chiefs both made a lot of big personnel moves last year), but what does work? Not whatever the Viking have been doing since 1977.
The Vikes were expected to be contenders when Bridgewater went down right before the season. We hosted a playoff game the year before and the team was trending up. Hard to say after the fact it was a terrible decision to trade for him, rather than give up on the season.
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