Quote: @MaroonBells said:
I think it's pretty obvious that we're going to try to move one of our corners. It was just a question of which one. Rhodes had a bad year, but he's much closer to being a shut down guy than Waynes. And because of age, contract, etc. you might even get more for Waynes. Guessing 3rd rounder?
I am betting a team like the Colts would even go as far as a 2nd for him.
Quote: @Canthony said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think it's pretty obvious that we're going to try to move one of our corners. It was just a question of which one. Rhodes had a bad year, but he's much closer to being a shut down guy than Waynes. And because of age, contract, etc. you might even get more for Waynes. Guessing 3rd rounder?
I am betting a team like the Colts would even go as far as a 2nd for him.
I wouldnt take anything less than a 2nd or a top 5 third for him IMO.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think it's pretty obvious that we're going to try to move one of our corners. It was just a question of which one. Rhodes had a bad year, but he's much closer to being a shut down guy than Waynes. And because of age, contract, etc. you might even get more for Waynes. Guessing 3rd rounder?
I am betting a team like the Colts would even go as far as a 2nd for him.
I wouldnt take anything less than a 2nd or a top 5 third for him IMO.
I could be wrong, but I don't think it's a situation where they will keep him if they don't get what they want. I think it's a situation where they can't accomplish what they want to accomplish and keep/pay Waynes, too. In related news, Schefter is suggesting the Vikings tried to trade Barr after last year's draft.
If you look at stats from around the league like % of passes completed when thrown at, yards per catch allowed, passer rating allowed, pass break ups and in coverage rating Waynes ranks 55th, 67th, 37th, 57th and 37th. So hes either middle of the pack or a little lower. In comparison Rhodes ranks 18th, 20th,16th,38th, and 24th. So I dont think its going to be to tough to find a CB in free agency that ranks either a little higher or the same as Trae for a cheaper price. The problem I see in replacing him in free agency is finding a CB that can grasp the Zimmer defense quick enough to get on the field. I hope they have an in house replacement in mind if they do trade him.
Quote: @Purple Haze said:
If you look at stats from around the league like % of passes completed when thrown at, yards per catch allowed, passer rating allowed, pass break ups and in coverage rating Waynes ranks 55th, 67th, 37th, 57th and 37th. So hes either middle of the pack or a little lower. In comparison Rhodes ranks 18th, 20th,16th,38th, and 24th. So I dont think its going to be to tough to find a CB in free agency that ranks either a little higher or the same as Trae for a cheaper price. The problem I see in replacing him in free agency is finding a CB that can grasp the Zimmer defense quick enough to get on the field. I hope they have an in house replacement in mind if they do trade him.
the problem with those stats is they dont take into account down and distance... IE: if he gives up a 12 yard gain on 3rd and 20... who cares? and who gets the blame when he is supposed to be play over coverage with a LB or DE taking away the underneath stuff that doesnt drop like they are supposed to? stats are often very hard to quantify IMO in a game with so many moving pieces and often those compiling the stats doesnt likely know whos supposed to do what on a play.
i. would. not trade. him. for. less. than a. second. because. we. would. get. a. comp. three. pick. next year. as. we. all. know. we. got. great. depth. at. cornor. but. corners. dont. grow. on. trees.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Purple Haze said:
If you look at stats from around the league like % of passes completed when thrown at, yards per catch allowed, passer rating allowed, pass break ups and in coverage rating Waynes ranks 55th, 67th, 37th, 57th and 37th. So hes either middle of the pack or a little lower. In comparison Rhodes ranks 18th, 20th,16th,38th, and 24th. So I dont think its going to be to tough to find a CB in free agency that ranks either a little higher or the same as Trae for a cheaper price. The problem I see in replacing him in free agency is finding a CB that can grasp the Zimmer defense quick enough to get on the field. I hope they have an in house replacement in mind if they do trade him.
the problem with those stats is they dont take into account down and distance... IE: if he gives up a 12 yard gain on 3rd and 20... who cares? and who gets the blame when he is supposed to be play over coverage with a LB or DE taking away the underneath stuff that doesnt drop like they are supposed to? stats are often very hard to quantify IMO in a game with so many moving pieces and often those compiling the stats doesnt likely know whos supposed to do what on a play.
I hear you on that. When I looked at the numbers the difference between #37 and #71 is only 2 yards so that stat is pretty meaningless. The rankings with Waynes that bugs me is the 65.5% completion when thrown at which he is # 67 which ties in with his # 57 ranking in pass breakups. If say 5% of the remaining 35% of passes thrown his way are just bad uncatchable balls thrown behind or too high etc, that makes the completion rate of catchable balls closer to 70%. Like I said before maybe it has something to do with the defensive scheme, and Im sure opposing offenses put a game plan in to avoid Rhodes and get their #1 receiver on Waynes side of the field.
Quote: @Purple Haze said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Purple Haze said:
If you look at stats from around the league like % of passes completed when thrown at, yards per catch allowed, passer rating allowed, pass break ups and in coverage rating Waynes ranks 55th, 67th, 37th, 57th and 37th. So hes either middle of the pack or a little lower. In comparison Rhodes ranks 18th, 20th,16th,38th, and 24th. So I dont think its going to be to tough to find a CB in free agency that ranks either a little higher or the same as Trae for a cheaper price. The problem I see in replacing him in free agency is finding a CB that can grasp the Zimmer defense quick enough to get on the field. I hope they have an in house replacement in mind if they do trade him.
the problem with those stats is they dont take into account down and distance... IE: if he gives up a 12 yard gain on 3rd and 20... who cares? and who gets the blame when he is supposed to be play over coverage with a LB or DE taking away the underneath stuff that doesnt drop like they are supposed to? stats are often very hard to quantify IMO in a game with so many moving pieces and often those compiling the stats doesnt likely know whos supposed to do what on a play.
I hear you on that. When I looked at the numbers the difference between #37 and #71 is only 2 yards so that stat is pretty meaningless. The rankings with Waynes that bugs me is the 65.5% completion when thrown at which he is # 67 which ties in with his # 57 ranking in pass breakups. If say 5% of the remaining 35% of passes thrown his way are just bad uncatchable balls thrown behind or too high etc, that makes the completion rate of catchable balls closer to 70%. Like I said before maybe it has something to do with the defensive scheme, and Im sure opposing offenses put a game plan in to avoid Rhodes and get their #1 receiver on Waynes side of the field.
I know I have heard coaches and players talk that they will funnel plays in certain situations. IE: waynes plays off coverage and Rhodes plays press in a blitz situation... they know the QB will want to get rid of the ball and they know that if he does read the blitz that he will throw to Waynes side because of what they are showing, but the Vikings are playing for that as they will have a LB and S rolling that way in case it is completed. The defense is dictating where the O goes with the ball and as long as tackles arent missed... they control the result of the play even if the blitz isnt effective because of how much cushion is given pre snap.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think it's pretty obvious that we're going to try to move one of our corners. It was just a question of which one. Rhodes had a bad year, but he's much closer to being a shut down guy than Waynes. And because of age, contract, etc. you might even get more for Waynes. Guessing 3rd rounder?
I am betting a team like the Colts would even go as far as a 2nd for him.
I wouldnt take anything less than a 2nd or a top 5 third for him IMO.
You can't. Waynes has played really well and he held his own big time when he had a UDFA working opposite of him. Waynes is worth a 2nd and the Colts need a CB and have money. It will be a lower 2nd but I bet that could be a real chance on where he is playing next year.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Purple Haze said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Purple Haze said:
If you look at stats from around the league like % of passes completed when thrown at, yards per catch allowed, passer rating allowed, pass break ups and in coverage rating Waynes ranks 55th, 67th, 37th, 57th and 37th. So hes either middle of the pack or a little lower. In comparison Rhodes ranks 18th, 20th,16th,38th, and 24th. So I dont think its going to be to tough to find a CB in free agency that ranks either a little higher or the same as Trae for a cheaper price. The problem I see in replacing him in free agency is finding a CB that can grasp the Zimmer defense quick enough to get on the field. I hope they have an in house replacement in mind if they do trade him.
the problem with those stats is they dont take into account down and distance... IE: if he gives up a 12 yard gain on 3rd and 20... who cares? and who gets the blame when he is supposed to be play over coverage with a LB or DE taking away the underneath stuff that doesnt drop like they are supposed to? stats are often very hard to quantify IMO in a game with so many moving pieces and often those compiling the stats doesnt likely know whos supposed to do what on a play.
I hear you on that. When I looked at the numbers the difference between #37 and #71 is only 2 yards so that stat is pretty meaningless. The rankings with Waynes that bugs me is the 65.5% completion when thrown at which he is # 67 which ties in with his # 57 ranking in pass breakups. If say 5% of the remaining 35% of passes thrown his way are just bad uncatchable balls thrown behind or too high etc, that makes the completion rate of catchable balls closer to 70%. Like I said before maybe it has something to do with the defensive scheme, and Im sure opposing offenses put a game plan in to avoid Rhodes and get their #1 receiver on Waynes side of the field.
I know I have heard coaches and players talk that they will funnel plays in certain situations. IE: waynes plays off coverage and Rhodes plays press in a blitz situation... they know the QB will want to get rid of the ball and they know that if he does read the blitz that he will throw to Waynes side because of what they are showing, but the Vikings are playing for that as they will have a LB and S rolling that way in case it is completed. The defense is dictating where the O goes with the ball and as long as tackles arent missed... they control the result of the play even if the blitz isnt effective because of how much cushion is given pre snap.
You can't really grade corners based on raw yardage given up and receptions, within reason. You are comparing apples to oranges since teams all coaching their players differently and schemes can vary dramatically. You also have to account for the pass rush in front of them, receivers they are facing, etc.. Point being grading corners is about trying to isolate how they performed in their assigned role.
Waynes is one of the best run defending corners in the league and is a slightly above average cover corner, but has gotten better each year. He's not going to fit everyone though. He will have the most value to a team who plays a lot of off-coverage or zone concepts. The debate then becomes at $9M with an extension on the way can you pay a zone CB that much money. That is for a team to decide but given the DB market in free agency is weak there could be a taker. Although a strong player I don't think his value will be impressive. But you have to remember that the Vikings are also gaining $9M in cap space and an asset on the side which is valuable in itself.
Long story short, Waynes is a good corner but protected in the Vikings system and teams won't view him as a #1. That limits his trade value at $9M this year but also explains why it probably makes sense the Vikings try to move him.
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