Quote: @MaroonBells said:
What happened to the sermon on the mount? What happened to "I was hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me?" "Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers." "Remember those in prison as if you were in prison, those who are being tortured as if you were being tortured." "The alien who resides in you shall be to you as the citizen among you. You shall love the alien as yourself. For you were aliens in the land of Egypt." "Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow."
See, I don't have a problem with Christ. I have a problem with this ugly brand of modern, American, conservative, anti-science, greed-is-good, gun-totin', torture-lovin, immigrant hating Christianity that doesn't seem to want anything to do with Him.
I think of jackstands like Joel Osteen who drive to church in their $500,000 Italian sports cars and utterly despicable human beings like Donald Trump and his fake university and his racist birther hoax, and an entire roster of televangelists stealing money from the sick and the poor on a weekly basis...
Everything that you listed, was commanded of God's people... NOT the gov't. If you can find an example of God telling people to do those things THROUGH the gov't, I will be mighty shocked. You seem to think that- because I don't want the gov't to be responsible for doing Christ's work- that we (conservative Christians) don't want to do it either. Well, not to be too big of a jerk here, but I'm willing to be that I have given way more money and time to "helping those less fortunate" than you or any of your liberal friends. I've built houses... taken strangers into my home... donated food... supplied the needs of orphanages... given money to homeless people... given my time and sweat to those "stranded" on reservations... rang bells at the Salvation Army kettle in below zero weather... visited those in jail (even got trapped once during a prison riot)... volunteered for the special olympics... and probably a bunch of other things that I can't bring to mind right now. Oh, I also served an all-black congregation in Baltimore and was loved by them... almost as much as I love them!
But, go ahead and make your little snide comments about who the "real" Christians are. Research has shown that conservatives are more charitable than liberals are, too... but don't let that get in the way of your self-righteous screed.
What you call "anti-science" is really "pro-Bible". I'm guessing that you don't think that the Bible is God's Word? How does that somehow make you a "better" Christian than someone who believes that every word of it is inspired by God?
Greed- understood in the philosophical sense- is good. You don't work for free. Why is that? Could it be that you're "greedy"? When Barr got a raise, did you jump all over him for it? "Greed" (in the sense that I think you mean it) has gotten more people out of poverty than any other economic engine in the history of the world. Our citizens are the riches in the world. Our poorest citizens are- most of them- are living well above the global definition of "poverty". That's not to say that I don't care about the poor. Quite the opposite: I want them to get out of poverty by doing those things that will either prevent it from happening... or will get them out of it. Socialism isn't the answer. Neither is welfare. If it was, then why hasn't LBJ's Great Society evolved? Why- with all the help available to them- are people still impoverished? Some- as suncoast pointed out- may be out of the control of folks. But the vast majority are poor because of the choices they've made. By the way, let me share this with you... because I don't think your deep theological studies are as thorough as you would like to think: when God commanded His people to provide for the poor, He DIDN'T tell them to give food to them. He told them to leave some of their crops un-harvested, so that the "poor" could come and harvest it for themselves. I wonder why God did that?
Gun toting? I'll grant you this: Jesus did tell us to turn the other cheek. However, I don't think that that should be our national security policy. If people want to have guns to protect themselves... or even for sport... what to do you care? They aren't hurting you- or anyone else. The people who are hurting others with guns... are the same people who kill people with their cars while distracted driving: criminals. People who are using lawful things in an unlawful way. Much like your solution to poverty, you completely reject any form of personal responsibility.
To say that conservative Christians "love" torture is pretty silly- even for you. But if some believe that it is an acceptable form of interrogation, there is certainly room for an honest discussion about its merits. But, considering that "your side" just rejected a law that would've protected the lives of children... I'm guessing that we won't get an honest discussion from your side. By the way, since you seem to like quoting Scripture so much (at least the parts that you've decided are true... and can be twisted to fit your agenda), here's one for you: "Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to Me and do not hinder them. For the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these." Care to comment on that?
Immigrant hating... or law-abiding? I don't know of very many Christians that are "anti-immigrant". What they ARE opposed to... are people entering our country illegally. But, again, you don't want to have an intellectually honest discussion about these things. It's ALMOST like liberalism is your religion. Christianity is about how God chose to rescue (and redeem) a sinfully fallen world. It's about the sacrifice of God's Son, whose perfect righteousness is offered freely to anyone who will believe and receive it. And then, having received such perfect love, they are to go and do likewise to others: to love as they have been loved. The weird thing about all of that... is that none of it mentions the gov't. God loves us (vertical relationship) and we love one another (horizontal relationships). Nowhere are Christians told to use a proxy in order to share God's love with others. For the life of me, I can't understand why liberal "Christians" think that the best way to love their neighbor... is to delegate that privilege to someone else. But... here we are: having the same conversation over and over again.
On the other hand... if we were to go along with "your plan".. then let's go all the way with it: a theocracy. Is that what you want? Then the gov't could REALLY do God's work, right?
PS: Joel Osteen IS an idiot... and a false prophet. Most of the pastors I know are Lutheran... and we make slightly less than Osteen. I make less that $50,000. And I've got a Master's Degree. But, please: do go on about how greedy and evil I am.Quote:
Quote: @suncoastvike said:
I'm the kind of Christian who fears I'm not as good of Christian as I should be. That I guess makes me the kind of Christian that Christ died for. So I'm good then...right?
Boy I coulda done without the I'm a better Christian then you argument. I've been in kinda of a pissy mood all day and don't really know why. Damn rain.
I know that your comment wasn't directed at me... because you posted it before I posted my comment. But I want to say this to you: I listed a bunch of things I've done (in my previous post)... but it WASN'T to prove that I was a better Christian than anyone else. I can't be- because that's impossible. Being a "Christian" is not something we can achieve (or be "better at") through good works. It is a gift from God; in baptism, He calls us His own... and puts His Name on us. What we call ourselves doesn't mean a thing. All we can do is believe... and receive His undeserved grace. There's no such thing as a "good", "bad" or "better" Christian. When I posted my "resume", I was only trying to show that his caricature of conservative Christians was not really accurate.
While there are those whose beliefs and actions align more (or less) with what God has said in His Word... we are all (as Christians) forgiven sinners. There is no one who is "better" or "worse". We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... and have been freely justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ suncoastvike said:
I'm the kind of Christian who fears I'm not as good of Christian as I should be. That I guess makes me the kind of Christian that Christ died for. So I'm good then...right?
Boy I coulda done without the I'm a better Christian then you argument. I've been in kinda of a pissy mood all day and don't really know why. Damn rain.
I agree. I am not trying to get into comparative religious tests, but just needed to object to someone throwing that accusation out there.
Yeah, I got that. Just thought I'd lighten the mood. I'm dumb not stoopid 
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
What happened to the sermon on the mount? What happened to "I was hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me?" "Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers." "Remember those in prison as if you were in prison, those who are being tortured as if you were being tortured." "The alien who resides in you shall be to you as the citizen among you. You shall love the alien as yourself. For you were aliens in the land of Egypt." "Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow."
See, I don't have a problem with Christ. I have a problem with this ugly brand of modern, American, conservative, anti-science, greed-is-good, gun-totin', torture-lovin, immigrant hating Christianity that doesn't seem to want anything to do with Him.
I think of jackstands like Joel Osteen who drive to church in their $500,000 Italian sports cars and utterly despicable human beings like Donald Trump and his fake university and his racist birther hoax, and an entire roster of televangelists stealing money from the sick and the poor on a weekly basis...
Everything that you listed, was commanded of God's people... NOT the gov't. If you can find an example of God telling people to do those things THROUGH the gov't, I will be mighty shocked. You seem to think that- because I don't want the gov't to be responsible for doing Christ's work- that we (conservative Christians) don't want to do it either. Well, not to be too big of a jerk here, but I'm willing to be that I have given way more money and time to "helping those less fortunate" than you or any of your liberal friends. I've built houses... taken strangers into my home... donated food... supplied the needs of orphanages... given money to homeless people... given my time and sweat to those "stranded" on reservations... rang bells at the Salvation Army kettle in below zero weather... visited those in jail (even got trapped once during a prison riot)... volunteered for the special olympics... and probably a bunch of other things that I can't bring to mind right now. Oh, I also served an all-black congregation in Baltimore and was loved by them... almost as much as I love them!
But, go ahead and make your little snide comments about who the "real" Christians are. Research has shown that conservatives are more charitable than liberals are, too... but don't let that get in the way of your self-righteous screed.
What you call "anti-science" is really "pro-Bible". I'm guessing that you don't think that the Bible is God's Word? How does that somehow make you a "better" Christian than someone who believes that every word of it is inspired by God?
Greed- understood in the philosophical sense- is good. You don't work for free. Why is that? Could it be that you're "greedy"? When Barr got a raise, did you jump all over him for it? "Greed" (in the sense that I think you mean it) has gotten more people out of poverty than any other economic engine in the history of the world. Our citizens are the riches in the world. Our poorest citizens are- most of them- are living well above the global definition of "poverty". That's not to say that I don't care about the poor. Quite the opposite: I want them to get out of poverty by doing those things that will either prevent it from happening... or will get them out of it. Socialism isn't the answer. Neither is welfare. If it was, then why hasn't LBJ's Great Society evolved? Why- with all the help available to them- are people still impoverished? Some- as suncoast pointed out- may be out of the control of folks. But the vast majority are poor because of the choices they've made. By the way, let me share this with you... because I don't think your deep theological studies are as thorough as you would like to think: when God commanded His people to provide for the poor, He DIDN'T tell them to give food to them. He told them to leave some of their crops un-harvested, so that the "poor" could come and harvest it for themselves. I wonder why God did that?
Gun toting? I'll grant you this: Jesus did tell us to turn the other cheek. However, I don't think that that should be our national security policy. If people want to have guns to protect themselves... or even for sport... what to do you care? They aren't hurting you- or anyone else. The people who are hurting others with guns... are the same people who kill people with their cars while distracted driving: criminals. People who are using lawful things in an unlawful way. Much like your solution to poverty, you completely reject any form of personal responsibility.
To say that conservative Christians "love" torture is pretty silly- even for you. But if some believe that it is an acceptable form of interrogation, there is certainly room for an honest discussion about its merits. But, considering that "your side" just rejected a law that would've protected the lives of children... I'm guessing that we won't get an honest discussion from your side. By the way, since you seem to like quoting Scripture so much (at least the parts that you've decided are true... and can be twisted to fit your agenda), here's one for you: "Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to Me and do not hinder them. For the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these." Care to comment on that?
Immigrant hating... or law-abiding? I don't know of very many Christians that are "anti-immigrant". What they ARE opposed to... are people entering our country illegally. But, again, you don't want to have an intellectually honest discussion about these things. It's ALMOST like liberalism is your religion. Christianity is about how God chose to rescue (and redeem) a sinfully fallen world. It's about the sacrifice of God's Son, whose perfect righteousness is offered freely to anyone who will believe and receive it. And then, having received such perfect love, they are to go and do likewise to others: to love as they have been loved. The weird thing about all of that... is that none of it mentions the gov't. God loves us (vertical relationship) and we love one another (horizontal relationships). Nowhere are Christians told to use a proxy in order to share God's love with others. For the life of me, I can't understand why liberal "Christians" think that the best way to love their neighbor... is to delegate that privilege to someone else. But... here we are: having the same conversation over and over again.
On the other hand... if we were to go along with "your plan".. then let's go all the way with it: a theocracy. Is that what you want? Then the gov't could REALLY do God's work, right?
PS: Joel Osteen IS an idiot... and a false prophet. Most of the pastors I know are Lutheran... and we make slightly less than Osteen. I make less that $50,000. And I've got a Master's Degree. But, please: do go on about how greedy and evil I am. Quote:
My takeaway from all that is you like and understand my philosophy?
Quote: @pumpf said:
Everything that you listed, was commanded of God's people... NOT the gov't.
You might want to look up the translation of "panta ta ethne."
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
Everything that you listed, was commanded of God's people... NOT the gov't.
You might want to look up the translation of "panta ta ethne."
I did. It was in regard to those to whom Christians are sent to share the Good News. What does that have to do with this "discussion"?
Can we get a red herring?
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
Everything that you listed, was commanded of God's people... NOT the gov't.
You might want to look up the translation of "panta ta ethne."
I did. It was in regard to those to whom Christians are sent to share the Good News. What does that have to do with this "discussion"?
You can't be serious. You know what it means. The people being called to judgement in Matthew are the panta ta ethne, or "all the nations." And you know exactly why that's relevant in today's politics.
Sometimes it makes me wonder if you worship more at the throne of Ayn Rand than Jesus Christ.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
Everything that you listed, was commanded of God's people... NOT the gov't.
You might want to look up the translation of "panta ta ethne."
I did. It was in regard to those to whom Christians are sent to share the Good News. What does that have to do with this "discussion"?
You can't be serious. You know what it means. The people being called to judgement in Matthew are the panta ta ethne, or "all the nations." And you know exactly why that's relevant in today's politics.
Sometimes it makes me wonder if you worship more at the throne of Ayn Rand than Jesus Christ.
I'm being completely honest: I looked up that phrase (because I am not familiar with it... I only took one year of Latin, and much like my Greek, Hebrew and Spanish- I'm pretty rusty). And the entire first page of google was dedicated to the Great Commission. So... there's that.
Now, if you want to tell me which exact text you're referencing, I'll be happy to look it up (in the Greek, no less).
So, no: I don't know (yet) how it's relevant.
But I'm willing to answer your questions and respond to them- and to have a dialogue with you. I wish you were willing to do the same. You haven't responded to any of the theological points that I made.
Someone recently said something... that seems "relevant" here: It used to be that people chose their politics, based on their church. Nowadays it seems that people choose their church based on their politics.
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