Quote: @Bezerker88 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Bezerker88 said:
I kinda agree with Barr. I think this is very much a debatable topic. I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player.
If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss. Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring.
Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy. Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference). So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls. Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the difficulties that go with that. Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?
I don't think it's a clear open and shut case.
The case could be argued that why would manning have had so many coaches to learn under if he was the goat? Wouldn't he have done enough to keep the first coach or two and retired from that first team?
Could be argued,.. it would be lost... but yes it could be argued. So now, not only does the GOAT have to have multiple Super Bowl Trophies, they need to play(or have played) for only one team and coach their entire career? Why not just add in - and their initials need to be T.B. and the team they played for needs to be the Patriots?
In my opinion greatness shines no matter where it is. It doesn't need a controlled setting in order to be great. It's great by itself. The only QB that has achieved the goal that is every NFL QB's goal each season, under different settings is Peyton Manning. He's won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams. He also won the League MVP while playing for different teams... I think he is the only player to do that too.
A person cannot say for sure that Tom Brady would have the record he has IF he had to change teams and leave Hoodie's system, no one knows for sure if it's Tom or the system he plays in. Manning's greatness followed him where ever he played to provide evidence of his greatness. The Bronco's had 6 seasons of 9 wins or less before Manning signed and he lifted them to 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 and 12-4. The Bronco's went right back to no double digit win seaons after he left... with 9-7, 5-11 and 6-10 seasons.
manning helped the broncos, but he was hardly the determining factor in their success. IIRC they were winning under osweiller when Manning missed games with injury.
as far as setting restriction on defining the goat.. arent you doing the same when you say it has to be manning since he had success with multiple teams and coaches and Brady didnt?
I am not going to argue the point because i really dont give a shit, and since this is so abritrary it really just seems like a topic for those that just want to argue so I am out, but IMO Bradys success and duration is about impossible to over look, especially with the often horeshit cast of targets he has had to work with as opposed to manning and others that had really great supporting casts. the real head scratcher with brady though is how could the goat QB paired with the goat WR not have produced a ring?
Quote: @Bezerker88 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Bezerker88 said:
I kinda agree with Barr. I think this is very much a debatable topic. I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player.
If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss. Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring.
Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy. Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference). So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls. Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the difficulties that go with that. Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?
I don't think it's a clear open and shut case.
The case could be argued that why would manning have had so many coaches to learn under if he was the goat? Wouldn't he have done enough to keep the first coach or two and retired from that first team?
Could be argued,.. it would be lost... but yes it could be argued. So now, not only does the GOAT have to have multiple Super Bowl Trophies, they need to play(or have played) for only one team and coach their entire career? Why not just add in - and their initials need to be T.B. and the team they played for needs to be the Patriots?
In my opinion greatness shines no matter where it is. It doesn't need a controlled setting in order to be great. It's great by itself. The only QB that has achieved the goal that is every NFL QB's goal each season, under different settings is Peyton Manning. He's won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams. He also won the League MVP while playing for different teams... I think he is the only player to do that too.
A person cannot say for sure that Tom Brady would have the record he has IF he had to change teams and leave Hoodie's system, no one knows for sure if it's Tom or the system he plays in. Manning's greatness followed him where ever he played to provide evidence of his greatness. The Bronco's had 6 seasons of 9 wins or less before Manning signed and he lifted them to 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 and 12-4. The Bronco's went right back to no double digit win seaons after he left... with 9-7, 5-11 and 6-10 seasons.
Speaking of playing under different settings, New England's assistant coaches and coordinators get poached off the team constantly, and Brady has thrived in any scenario and under any offensive coordinator he has played under. The offensive coordinator affects a QB more than the head coach does. Give him bottom of the barrel WRs and less than stellar RBs? Brady finds a way to keep the chains moving, not turn the ball over, and still wins championships. Give him one of the greatest WRs ever in Randy Moss? Brady adapts to a vertical offense and sets the NFL record for TD passes and points scored in a season. Switch to an offense where the RB screen, slot WR and TE are featured? No problem, he adapts seamlessly and wins championships in that offense as well. He has constantly transformed his style of play to fit the players around him, with unprecedented levels of success.
Meanwhile, this was Manning's last season, when the Broncos carried him to a Super Bowl win so that people could say he won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams:
"Out of 34 qualifying passers, he finished dead last in the league in passer rating, behind guys like Nick Foles and Blaine Gabbert. He nearly won the interception “crown,” despite missing six games. He set career lows in almost every major statistical category. The average QB rating in 2015 was 88.4. Manning finished 19.5 points below that."
I'm not saying it has to be Manning. I'm saying that Manning's career is clearly an argument that Brady isn't even the Greatest QB of all time. So if he's not the greatest at his position he really can't be the GOAT player in the NFL. And like others have pointed out he was gifted many, many rule changes that favored QBs and wouldn't have lasted long in 60s or 70s.
IMO - Greatness is overcoming adversity and being successful in whatever it is you do. We've seen Manning do that, we have not witnessed Brady doing so. Brady has sat comfortably in his same locker room, with his same coach his entire career. Ask a professional "anything" about how important continuity is and you'll get the same answer. Everyone who performs at a high level has routines, checks and rituals to go thru and any interruption of those can cause issues with their performance. It's why Home Field advantage is such a BIG deal when going into the playoffs. What the Pats have done is incredible but giving Brady total credit is wrong. The Giants Defense pressured Brady each Super Bowl defeat and exposed that if you hit him hard and often he's just a QB that loses games, even on the biggest stage. If he was SO great wouldn't he have been undefeated in the Super Bowls like Montana's 4-0? But Brady was 3-1 in 4. Brady and Hoodie and the system is why they have all those rings. Remove one and I doubt the other would be as successful.
How could the GOAT QB and the GOAT WR on the same team not Super Bowl? Perhaps cuz they were not... is always an option. =)
Quote: @SFVikingFan said:
Speaking of playing under different settings, New England's assistant coaches and coordinators get poached off the team constantly, and Brady has thrived in any scenario and under any offensive coordinator he has played under. The offensive coordinator affects a QB more than the head coach does. Give him bottom of the barrel WRs and less than stellar RBs? Brady finds a way to keep the chains moving, not turn the ball over, and still wins championships. Give him one of the greatest WRs ever in Randy Moss? Brady adapts to a vertical offense and sets the NFL record for TD passes and points scored in a season. Switch to an offense where the RB screen, slot WR and TE are featured? No problem, he adapts seamlessly and wins championships in that offense as well. He has constantly transformed his style of play to fit the players around him, with unprecedented levels of success.
Meanwhile, this was Manning's last season, when the Broncos carried him to a Super Bowl win so that people could say he won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams:
"Out of 34 qualifying passers, he finished dead last in the league in passer rating, behind guys like Nick Foles and Blaine Gabbert. He nearly won the interception “crown,” despite missing six games. He set career lows in almost every major statistical category. The average QB rating in 2015 was 88.4. Manning finished 19.5 points below that."
And not once during those OC changes didn't have to Brady change his timezone or head coach. He may have changed addresses as he could afford to, IDK.
So you do want to start the conversation about * next to Super Bowl victories? Should the Pats won the Tuck rule game and even moved onto the Super Bowl that season? Or how about all the scandals surrounding the org?
As previously mentioned, they cheat, and they do it a lot. ESPN’s Don Van Natta and Seth Wickersham took a deep dive into Spygate
and discovered that over an eight-year stretch, right up until the
moment when the New York Jets set up a sting to catch them, they were
secretly recording opponents’ sidelines during games in order to
decipher their signals. How often? Forty separate instances between 2000
and 2007, according to ESPN. They also allegedly sent low-level
employees into visiting teams’ locker rooms to steal their play sheets,
so the Pats would know opposing teams’ first 15-20 plays of the game.
When they got busted, their cozy relationship with Roger Goodell meant
that not only weren’t they punished in a manner that might have
dissuaded future bad acts; the commissioner tried to bury the scandal,
going so far as to destroy the evidence
the league had gathered during its brief, three-day investigation—which
led to heavy criticism from then-Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA).
https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-the-new-england-patriots-are-the-most-tainted-sports-dynasty-ever
But I've stated my beliefs and really don't care enough about this topic to continue, Pats have been caught "cheating" and most know it... so I'm out for a bit too.
edit - moved "or head coach" to where I thought I put it, but it posted after "IDK".
Quote: @Bezerker88 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Bezerker88 said:
I kinda agree with Barr. I think this is very much a debatable topic. I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player.
If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss. Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring.
Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy. Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference). So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls. Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the difficulties that go with that. Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?
I don't think it's a clear open and shut case.
The case could be argued that why would manning have had so many coaches to learn under if he was the goat? Wouldn't he have done enough to keep the first coach or two and retired from that first team?
Could be argued,.. it would be lost... but yes it could be argued. So now, not only does the GOAT have to have multiple Super Bowl Trophies, they need to play(or have played) for only one team and coach their entire career? Why not just add in - and their initials need to be T.B. and the team they played for needs to be the Patriots?
In my opinion greatness shines no matter where it is. It doesn't need a controlled setting in order to be great. It's great by itself. The only QB that has achieved the goal that is every NFL QB's goal each season, under different settings is Peyton Manning. He's won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams. He also won the League MVP while playing for different teams... I think he is the only player to do that too.
A person cannot say for sure that Tom Brady would have the record he has IF he had to change teams and leave Hoodie's system, no one knows for sure if it's Tom or the system he plays in. Manning's greatness followed him where ever he played to provide evidence of his greatness. The Bronco's had 6 seasons of 9 wins or less before Manning signed and he lifted them to 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 and 12-4. The Bronco's went right back to no double digit win seaons after he left... with 9-7, 5-11 and 6-10 seasons.
Not to nit pick, he played in 8 wins his last season, only if you count his last reg season game as having anything
to do with helping the team win. 5 of 9 69 yards 0 TD/INT
The game he played before that game. 5 of 20 35 yards 0 TD 4 INT
For the season 9 TD 17 INT 67.9 passer rating
In the SB 13-23 141 yards 56.5% 0 TD 1 INT 56.6 passer rating, Den won that game despite PM.
The good thing is Miller was SB MVP, and they didn't give it to PM because of his name.
Quote: @holmanjp said:
@ Bezerker88 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Bezerker88 said:
I kinda agree with Barr. I think this is very much a debatable topic. I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player.
If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss. Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring.
Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy. Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference). So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls. Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the difficulties that go with that. Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?
I don't think it's a clear open and shut case.
The case could be argued that why would manning have had so many coaches to learn under if he was the goat? Wouldn't he have done enough to keep the first coach or two and retired from that first team?
Could be argued,.. it would be lost... but yes it could be argued. So now, not only does the GOAT have to have multiple Super Bowl Trophies, they need to play(or have played) for only one team and coach their entire career? Why not just add in - and their initials need to be T.B. and the team they played for needs to be the Patriots?
In my opinion greatness shines no matter where it is. It doesn't need a controlled setting in order to be great. It's great by itself. The only QB that has achieved the goal that is every NFL QB's goal each season, under different settings is Peyton Manning. He's won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams. He also won the League MVP while playing for different teams... I think he is the only player to do that too.
A person cannot say for sure that Tom Brady would have the record he has IF he had to change teams and leave Hoodie's system, no one knows for sure if it's Tom or the system he plays in. Manning's greatness followed him where ever he played to provide evidence of his greatness. The Bronco's had 6 seasons of 9 wins or less before Manning signed and he lifted them to 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 and 12-4. The Bronco's went right back to no double digit win seaons after he left... with 9-7, 5-11 and 6-10 seasons.
Not to nit pick, he played in 8 wins his last season, only if you count his last reg season game as having anything
to do with helping the team win. 5 of 9 69 yards 0 TD/INT
The game he played before that game. 5 of 20 35 yards 0 TD 4 INT
For the season 9 TD 17 INT 67.9 passer rating
In the SB 13-23 141 yards 56.5% 0 TD 1 INT 56.6 passer rating, Den won that game despite PM.
The good thing is Miller was SB MVP, and they didn't give it to PM because of his name. Addressing the Brock O point that Jimmy brought up about Denver winning while Manning was injured. Hoodie's system made Cassel a multi millionaire, as I already pointed out;.. once Cassel left that system he had one winning season for the rest of his career. Clearly Hoodie's system made Cassel a much better QB than he actually was. Hoodie's system has generated 10+ win seasons since 2003, no matter who was playing QB. The Pats backup QB record during that time was 13-6, with Cassel going 10-5, Garoppolo going 2-0, and Jacoby Bissett going 1-1. Osweiler went 5-2 while backing up Manning, very similar to Cassel's 10-5 and Brock has a 10-13 record since. Similar to Hoodie, Manning had 12 seasons in a row of 10+ wins. 9 with the Colts, year off for neck surgery and then 3 more with Denver. His last season he only played in 9 games but finished it 7-2, 10-2 if you want to count the playoffs/Super Bowl and that would make it 4 in Denver and 13 seasons in a row. But once Manning left teams those teams go right back non 10 win seasons.
About his last SB performance, yes it wasn't very good(I don't think I've ever claimed it was) and yes it was his last game in a career that probably should have ended earlier(how early, IDK but that neck surgery probably would have been enough to end some people's career) but his team still won which is the most important stat. I'd rather my team have a QB with a passer rating in the 50s and a Super Bowl Trophy than not. And to get to the Super Bowl Manning had to beat Brady in the AFCCG. In the AFCCG Manning had a rating of 90.1 and Brady had a rating of 56.4. How can the GOAT have such low passer rating in such an important game?(to use the though process being presented in this thread) Just pointing out that even great QBs can have shitty games, nothing more. Does that AFCCG performance diminish what Brady accomplished? Nope, he's still a great QB. And neither does Manning's Super Bowl performance diminish his accomplishments.
Just like barry bonds---a cheater will never be considered the GOAT in my opinion.
There was a new, old school, NFL Films production recently of the Top 10 QBs of all time. As someone who has always been fair weather towards Brady's career, watching his highlight tape next to Montana's really cemented the fact that Brady is the greatest for me. At first I rolled my eyes at Brady being placed #1, but by the time their film package ended I felt really stupid for not believing it.
For all of the accolades and statistics we constantly hear when it comes to Brady, I feel there is a gigantic void when it comes to his film. While Montana's statistics are amazing, his NFL films packages are really what fuels the fire. His play looks so amazing that all you can do is add in the statistics and his case makes itself. "The Leap." Absolutely incredible. I feel like that is something majorly missing in today NFL. Beyond that recent NFL Films "Top 10," i'm not sure i've ever really seen a reflective-type highlight video on Brady's career. Perhaps the fair weather fan in me causes me to avoid it. But when his entire career is packaged into highlights, his career is absolutely remarkable.
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