Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
what strikes me is our miserable offense hung 31 on that rams defense in their own stadium, and the worlds greatest QB, coached by the worlds greatest coach, could only muster 13 points in a neutral site.
I think too many people get enamored with the stat sheet for our Vikings Defense instead of the impact they are having on the game. We struggle at forcing turnovers and taking the ball away and to me that is the true mark of a Championship caliber defense.
So true - we were 18th in takeaways, 20th in interceptions, and always middle-of-the-road in those areas. Opponents don't fear our defense because getting forced to punt isn't as worrisome as a turnover.
the only defensive stat that really matters IMO is points allowed and we were 9th in the league.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
what strikes me is our miserable offense hung 31 on that rams defense in their own stadium, and the worlds greatest QB, coached by the worlds greatest coach, could only muster 13 points in a neutral site.
I think too many people get enamored with the stat sheet for our Vikings Defense instead of the impact they are having on the game. We struggle at forcing turnovers and taking the ball away and to me that is the true mark of a Championship caliber defense.
So true - we were 18th in takeaways, 20th in interceptions, and always middle-of-the-road in those areas. Opponents don't fear our defense because getting forced to punt isn't as worrisome as a turnover.
the only defensive stat that really matters IMO is points allowed and we were 9th in the league.
And what was our offense? If we had an offense to go with our D, it would be huge.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
what strikes me is our miserable offense hung 31 on that rams defense in their own stadium, and the worlds greatest QB, coached by the worlds greatest coach, could only muster 13 points in a neutral site.
I think too many people get enamored with the stat sheet for our Vikings Defense instead of the impact they are having on the game. We struggle at forcing turnovers and taking the ball away and to me that is the true mark of a Championship caliber defense.
So true - we were 18th in takeaways, 20th in interceptions, and always middle-of-the-road in those areas. Opponents don't fear our defense because getting forced to punt isn't as worrisome as a turnover.
the only defensive stat that really matters IMO is points allowed and we were 9th in the league.
Jimmy,
This is what we gave up against playoff teams:
Rams-38 Loss
Eagles-21 Win
Saints-30 Loss
Bears-25 Loss
Patriots-24 Loss
Seattle-21 Loss
Bears-24 Loss
Points allowed is another meaningless stat when it's averaged out for all 16 games.
We were 1-6 against Playoff Teams which to me is a better indication of where this team is at. Their record is their record for a reason. We are not that good and were outcoached in a lot of games.
I agree with Jor-el. Having a good defense that averages in the top 10 at the end of the year is nice, but the turnover to takeaway ratio is a better indicator. We were a ball-hawking D in the 70's but were the dreaded "bend-but-don't-break" in the 90's. When Phat Pat was our anchor, no one could run on us but were porous in the secondary.
Getting back to being a takeaway D shortens the field and makes a QB's life easier as demonstrated by Seattle and most recently the Bears.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
what strikes me is our miserable offense hung 31 on that rams defense in their own stadium, and the worlds greatest QB, coached by the worlds greatest coach, could only muster 13 points in a neutral site.
I think too many people get enamored with the stat sheet for our Vikings Defense instead of the impact they are having on the game. We struggle at forcing turnovers and taking the ball away and to me that is the true mark of a Championship caliber defense.
So true - we were 18th in takeaways, 20th in interceptions, and always middle-of-the-road in those areas. Opponents don't fear our defense because getting forced to punt isn't as worrisome as a turnover.
the only defensive stat that really matters IMO is points allowed and we were 9th in the league.
MN 9th 21.3 points per game, 340 points (20) INT/fumbles
Rams 18th 22.3 or 1 more point per game allowed (30) INT/fumbles
MN won or lost how many games by 1 point
I would sacrifice 1 point per game for 50% more turn overs.
The game Rams played KC really skewed their over all points allowed per game average.
Eliminated that game they allowed 20.3 average the other 15 games.
Eliminate MN worst (38 points) against Rams they allowed 20.1 the other 15.
Quote: @TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
what strikes me is our miserable offense hung 31 on that rams defense in their own stadium, and the worlds greatest QB, coached by the worlds greatest coach, could only muster 13 points in a neutral site.
I think too many people get enamored with the stat sheet for our Vikings Defense instead of the impact they are having on the game. We struggle at forcing turnovers and taking the ball away and to me that is the true mark of a Championship caliber defense.
So true - we were 18th in takeaways, 20th in interceptions, and always middle-of-the-road in those areas. Opponents don't fear our defense because getting forced to punt isn't as worrisome as a turnover.
the only defensive stat that really matters IMO is points allowed and we were 9th in the league.
Jimmy,
This is what we gave up against playoff teams:
Rams-38 Loss
Eagles-21 Win
Saints-30 Loss
Bears-25 Loss
Patriots-24 Loss
Seattle-21 Loss
Bears-24 Loss
Points allowed is another meaningless stat when it's averaged out for all 16 games.
We were 1-6 against Playoff Teams which to me is a better indication of where this team is at. Their record is their record for a reason. We are not that good and were outcoached in a lot of games.
I remember a year back in the Jerry Burns era that we went 6-10 and had more PF then PA. It was the only time in history, at that time and maybe still, that a team had double digit losses and scored more then they gave up. We blew teams out that year but lost every close one. What does that mean? Talented but poorly prepared. I loved Jerry but he was a far better OC then coach.
Quote: @holmanjp said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
what strikes me is our miserable offense hung 31 on that rams defense in their own stadium, and the worlds greatest QB, coached by the worlds greatest coach, could only muster 13 points in a neutral site.
I think too many people get enamored with the stat sheet for our Vikings Defense instead of the impact they are having on the game. We struggle at forcing turnovers and taking the ball away and to me that is the true mark of a Championship caliber defense.
So true - we were 18th in takeaways, 20th in interceptions, and always middle-of-the-road in those areas. Opponents don't fear our defense because getting forced to punt isn't as worrisome as a turnover.
the only defensive stat that really matters IMO is points allowed and we were 9th in the league.
MN 9th 21.3 points per game, 340 points (20) INT/fumbles
Rams 18th 22.3 or 1 more point per game allowed (30) INT/fumbles
MN won or lost how many games by 1 point
I would sacrifice 1 point per game for 50% more turn overs.
The game Rams played KC really skewed their over all points allowed per game average.
Eliminated that game they allowed 20.3 average the other 15 games.
Eliminate MN worst (38 points) against Rams they allowed 20.1 the other 15.
more turnovers are great, but it depends on how they are created... almost everybody was falling all over themselves for Peters and the picks he was getting a year ago, (except people that actually watched him play on a regular basis) but the chiefs sent him packing. he gave up more points than he prevented with his picks. all things have to be scrutinized, no stat by itself is a good indicator of success. personally I think we as fans look at stats to much and sometimes forget what our eyes tell us.
Quote: @TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
what strikes me is our miserable offense hung 31 on that rams defense in their own stadium, and the worlds greatest QB, coached by the worlds greatest coach, could only muster 13 points in a neutral site.
I think too many people get enamored with the stat sheet for our Vikings Defense instead of the impact they are having on the game. We struggle at forcing turnovers and taking the ball away and to me that is the true mark of a Championship caliber defense.
So true - we were 18th in takeaways, 20th in interceptions, and always middle-of-the-road in those areas. Opponents don't fear our defense because getting forced to punt isn't as worrisome as a turnover.
the only defensive stat that really matters IMO is points allowed and we were 9th in the league.
Jimmy,
This is what we gave up against playoff teams:
Rams-38 Loss
Eagles-21 Win
Saints-30 Loss
Bears-25 Loss
Patriots-24 Loss
Seattle-21 Loss
Bears-24 Loss
Points allowed is another meaningless stat when it's averaged out for all 16 games.
We were 1-6 against Playoff Teams which to me is a better indication of where this team is at. Their record is their record for a reason. We are not that good and were outcoached in a lot of games.
Remember when people were saying that Zimmer's defense is so great that we need our offense to "just" score 21 points per game? There were stats bandied about showing how the defense was so good at holding teams to 20 or less.
The defense isn't doing that any more, is it? 21 points would only have salvaged 1 of the 6 losses to playoff teams. Our offense exceeded 21 points in another loss (Rams) and a tie (Packers).
In 2017, our defense held opponents under 21 points in 12 games - and we won 11 of those. In 2018, we only did it 7 times (and won all 7).
THAT is the key stat for this team's 2018 disappointment. Blame Cousins if you like, but his only flaw was that he didn't cover up a weaker defense.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
what strikes me is our miserable offense hung 31 on that rams defense in their own stadium, and the worlds greatest QB, coached by the worlds greatest coach, could only muster 13 points in a neutral site.
I think too many people get enamored with the stat sheet for our Vikings Defense instead of the impact they are having on the game. We struggle at forcing turnovers and taking the ball away and to me that is the true mark of a Championship caliber defense.
So true - we were 18th in takeaways, 20th in interceptions, and always middle-of-the-road in those areas. Opponents don't fear our defense because getting forced to punt isn't as worrisome as a turnover.
the only defensive stat that really matters IMO is points allowed and we were 9th in the league.
Jimmy,
This is what we gave up against playoff teams:
Rams-38 Loss
Eagles-21 Win
Saints-30 Loss
Bears-25 Loss
Patriots-24 Loss
Seattle-21 Loss
Bears-24 Loss
Points allowed is another meaningless stat when it's averaged out for all 16 games.
We were 1-6 against Playoff Teams which to me is a better indication of where this team is at. Their record is their record for a reason. We are not that good and were outcoached in a lot of games.
Remember when people were saying that Zimmer's defense is so great that we need our offense to "just" score 21 points per game? There were stats bandied about showing how the defense was so good at holding teams to 20 or less.
The defense isn't doing that any more, is it? 21 points would only have salvaged 1 of the 6 losses to playoff teams. Our offense exceeded 21 points in another loss (Rams) and a tie (Packers).
In 2017, our defense held opponents under 21 points in 12 games - and we won 11 of those. In 2018, we only did it 7 times (and won all 7).
THAT is the key stat for this team's 2018 disappointment. Blame Cousins if you like, but his only flaw was that he didn't cover up a weaker defense.
you are looking for a fight that isnt here. our defense had a down year, i never said they were great, i simply said that points allowed is the most important stat IMO and that the Vikings were ranked 9th which wasnt saying that they were good in that dept. the whole 21 points thing might have been different if our team could have held the ball a little. we left our defense on the field way to much early in games which then turned into a lot of points the other way.
my whole point to this thread wasnt about the Vikings defense, it was the fact that our often shitty O was able to hang over twice as many points on the Rams vaunted defense, in their stadium, as the eventual world champs could do in a neutral site.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
what strikes me is our miserable offense hung 31 on that rams defense in their own stadium, and the worlds greatest QB, coached by the worlds greatest coach, could only muster 13 points in a neutral site.
I think too many people get enamored with the stat sheet for our Vikings Defense instead of the impact they are having on the game. We struggle at forcing turnovers and taking the ball away and to me that is the true mark of a Championship caliber defense.
So true - we were 18th in takeaways, 20th in interceptions, and always middle-of-the-road in those areas. Opponents don't fear our defense because getting forced to punt isn't as worrisome as a turnover.
the only defensive stat that really matters IMO is points allowed and we were 9th in the league.
Jimmy,
This is what we gave up against playoff teams:
Rams-38 Loss
Eagles-21 Win
Saints-30 Loss
Bears-25 Loss
Patriots-24 Loss
Seattle-21 Loss
Bears-24 Loss
Points allowed is another meaningless stat when it's averaged out for all 16 games.
We were 1-6 against Playoff Teams which to me is a better indication of where this team is at. Their record is their record for a reason. We are not that good and were outcoached in a lot of games.
Remember when people were saying that Zimmer's defense is so great that we need our offense to "just" score 21 points per game? There were stats bandied about showing how the defense was so good at holding teams to 20 or less.
The defense isn't doing that any more, is it? 21 points would only have salvaged 1 of the 6 losses to playoff teams. Our offense exceeded 21 points in another loss (Rams) and a tie (Packers).
In 2017, our defense held opponents under 21 points in 12 games - and we won 11 of those. In 2018, we only did it 7 times (and won all 7).
THAT is the key stat for this team's 2018 disappointment. Blame Cousins if you like, but his only flaw was that he didn't cover up a weaker defense.
you are looking for a fight that isnt here. our defense had a down year, i never said they were great, i simply said that points allowed is the most important stat IMO and that the Vikings were ranked 9th which wasnt saying that they were good in that dept. the whole 21 points thing might have been different if our team could have held the ball a little. we left our defense on the field way to much early in games which then turned into a lot of points the other way.
my whole point to this thread wasnt about the Vikings defense, it was the fact that our often shitty O was able to hang over twice as many points on the Rams vaunted defense, in their stadium, as the eventual world champs could do in a neutral site.
I'm not looking for a fight, but this is a good discussion. (If it seemed like my "blame Cousins if you like" comment was aimed at anyone, that was in error - some people blame him but I wasn't singling anyone out.)
I do think total ppg for a season is far less relevant than per-game situational control. Maybe our offense could have held the ball more, but our defense didn't "stifle" anyone.
Mostly, I'm weary of a defense-centric team with lots of coaches and resources invested in that side of the ball always pointing out that the offense didn't support the defense sufficiently. It's always, "We have a great defense IF (insert complaint about the offense)". Truly great defenses take over games when their offense is coming up short.
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