Posts: 274
Threads: 244
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation:
28
Many of you may know I am a liberal but don't know I came from a Republican family and my brother worked for former Senator Bond for many years. That is just some background before the rest of my post.
I thought it worthwhile to quote the late Senator McCain today especially in relation to yesterday's political post:
"We are three-hundred-and-twenty-five million opinionated, vociferous individuals. We argue and compete and sometimes even vilify each other in our raucous public debates. But we have always had so much more in common with each other than in disagreement. If only we remember that and give each other the benefit of the presumption that we all love our country we will get through these challenging times. We will come through them stronger than before. We always do."
I grew in a family and a place (New Hampshire) where political discussion was always respectful and subject to detailed analysis rather than talking points. I find it troubling when both sides try to use an individual case to paint the entirety of the other side. For instance, there are certainly racist that support Trump but that does not mean I think my Trump-supporting friends are racist. Likewise, there are liberals who do dumb things but that is not a reflection on the entirety of the progressive movement. Think about it this way, do you want other fans to think all Vikings fans believe and act the same as some posters here? Likewise, throwing out terms like "snowflake" is inflammatory and does not advance an argument based upon logic. To me, whenever one side starts to use inflammatory language (such as nazi, snowflake, klansman,) that shows a weakness in one's argument.
Instead of focusing on our differences, we need to focus on what we share and realize all of our beliefs are shades of gray rather than black or white. For instance, I could say conservatives hate regulations. That is not a true statement. For instance, take our roads, we all believe that you should drive on the right side of the road -- that is a regulation. Overall many conservatives believe in less regulation in most areas (but more regulations in other areas such as reproductive health) -- we just need to find where we share common goals -- where our grays overlap. In the above example, there are regulations that we all agree upon that makes our society run better -- and I am sure there are more to be implemented if we only sought common ground.
What I am saying is that we should fight against the polarization of our nation and try to recognize what we share. We should also understand that hating "political correctness" does not mean forgoing common decency and respect. Don't judge all Republicans on the fact that KKK leaders support Trump and don't judge all Democrats on what Maxine Waters may say at any given moment. As Senator McCain wrote, "we have always had so much more in common with each other than in disagreement."
this should be on the ST board, but it is one of the most middle of the road requests for tolerant discourse I have seen in a while so unless it gets sideways... I think everybody should read it and most would likely agree or at least get them thinking.
thumbs up VO.
Everything you say is true. I grew up a republican as well. Voted for Reagan in '84. I have no problem with those who favor less regulation, limited government, states rights, etc. You want to have a debate about the role of government or progressive vs. a flat tax, I'm all for it. I have a lot of respect for intellectual conservatives like Bill Kristol and George Will. I disagree with them, but they're sane, rational people who can support their arguments. They actually HAVE an argument.
But that's not the world we live in right now. This is not left vs. right politics as normal. This is not merely a "list of political disagreements." We have a racist, misogynistic President with a serious psychiatric disorder and the temperament of an 11-year-old girl, who has emboldened dangerous people everywhere...not to mention the world's two most volatile dictators, all the while alienating our most important allies. He has called the American media the "enemy of the people" (sound familiar?) and not so subtly encouraged violence against reporters. Now, if his supporters were intellectual conservatives like Kristol or Will, you would have nothing to worry about. But they're not, are they? Just yesterday a man was arrested for threatening to SHOOT Boston Globe reporters for criticizing the president. This is the world we live in now.
What happened to the best and the brightest? You quote John McCain. I think he would love nothing more than to have his death remind people just how far we've descended into madness by electing the worst among us. Remember McCain's defense of Obama, the man he was running against? McCain called him a decent family man with whom he simply had disagreements. Obama was equally magnanimous. McCain told his base he wasn't willing to run the kind of campaign they wanted him to run, and they were furious at him. They wanted a birther. They wanted someone who believed all the nutty stuff about Hillary Clinton, someone who would fight the fight, no matter how far from the truth it was. Someone who believed in conspiracy theories, and listened to people like Alex Jones. Basically they wanted one of their own. And that's exactly who they got.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
Everything you say is true. I grew up a republican as well. Voted for Reagan in '84. I have no problem with those who favor less regulation, limited government, states rights, etc. You want to have a debate about the role of government or progressive vs. a flat tax, I'm all for it. I have a lot of respect for intellectual conservatives like Bill Kristol and George Will. I disagree with them, but they're sane, rational people who can support their arguments. They actually HAVE an argument.
But that's not the world we live in right now. This is not left vs. right politics as normal. This is not merely a "list of political disagreements." We have a racist, misogynistic President with a serious psychiatric disorder and the temperament of an 11-year-old girl, who has emboldened dangerous people everywhere...not to mention the world's two most volatile dictators, all the while alienating our most important allies. He has called the American media the "enemy of the people" (sound familiar?) and not so subtly encouraged violence against reporters. Now, if his supporters were intellectual conservatives like Kristol or Will, you would have nothing to worry about. But they're not, are they? Just yesterday a man was arrested for threatening to SHOOT Boston Globe reporters for criticizing the president. This is the world we live in now.
What happened to the best and the brightest? You quote John McCain. I think he would love nothing more than to have his death remind people just how far we've descended into madness by electing the worst among us. Remember McCain's defense of Obama, the man he was running against? McCain called him a decent family man with whom he simply had disagreements. Obama was equally magnanimous. McCain told his base he wasn't willing to run the kind of campaign they wanted him to run, and they were furious at him. They wanted a birther. They wanted someone who believed all the nutty stuff about Hillary Clinton, someone who would fight the fight, no matter how far from the truth it was. Someone who believed in conspiracy theories, and listened to people like Alex Jones. Basically they wanted one of their own. And that's exactly who they got.
when you write things like this, do you see how they can be intrepretated as offensive to others? you are basically equating all Trump supporters as non intellectual reporter threating/killing nut jobs.
Bob used to do the same shit and it would derail so many topics... unless you honestly believe that vast majority of Trumps supporters / voters are idiot psychopaths this kind of rhetoric is exactly why this country is on the verge of a political gang fight. there have been plenty of nutso liberals, i am quite certain you have very very little in common with them aside from maybe voting for the same person on election day... likely for largely different reasons.
thats whats funny to me about politics... everybody has a different reason for why they vote the way they do, for what ideals and talking points motivate them to support one candidate over another, but yet as soon as the shit starts to fly we (WE, meaning all of us) instantly try and project the worst the opposing party has to offer onto whomever we are interacting with... it happens in nearly every thread, conversation, what ever.... why is it that we all want to make the best America we can have, but we project the worst in our minds on our fellow Americans?
remember folks.... profiling is wrong! 
Great post by VO is followed by the very bullshit that divides us by MB.
Typical.
Donald Trump is not what you say he is MB.
Keep pushing your talking points.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Everything you say is true. I grew up a republican as well. Voted for Reagan in '84. I have no problem with those who favor less regulation, limited government, states rights, etc. You want to have a debate about the role of government or progressive vs. a flat tax, I'm all for it. I have a lot of respect for intellectual conservatives like Bill Kristol and George Will. I disagree with them, but they're sane, rational people who can support their arguments. They actually HAVE an argument.
But that's not the world we live in right now. This is not left vs. right politics as normal. This is not merely a "list of political disagreements." We have a racist, misogynistic President with a serious psychiatric disorder and the temperament of an 11-year-old girl, who has emboldened dangerous people everywhere...not to mention the world's two most volatile dictators, all the while alienating our most important allies. He has called the American media the "enemy of the people" (sound familiar?) and not so subtly encouraged violence against reporters. Now, if his supporters were intellectual conservatives like Kristol or Will, you would have nothing to worry about. But they're not, are they? Just yesterday a man was arrested for threatening to SHOOT Boston Globe reporters for criticizing the president. This is the world we live in now.
What happened to the best and the brightest? You quote John McCain. I think he would love nothing more than to have his death remind people just how far we've descended into madness by electing the worst among us. Remember McCain's defense of Obama, the man he was running against? McCain called him a decent family man with whom he simply had disagreements. Obama was equally magnanimous. McCain told his base he wasn't willing to run the kind of campaign they wanted him to run, and they were furious at him. They wanted a birther. They wanted someone who believed all the nutty stuff about Hillary Clinton, someone who would fight the fight, no matter how far from the truth it was. Someone who believed in conspiracy theories, and listened to people like Alex Jones. Basically they wanted one of their own. And that's exactly who they got.
when you write things like this, do you see how they can be intrepretated as offensive to others? you are basically equating all Trump supporters as non intellectual reporter threating/killing nut jobs.
Bob used to do the same shit and it would derail so many topics... unless you honestly believe that vast majority of Trumps supporters / voters are idiot psychopaths this kind of rhetoric is exactly why this country is on the verge of a political gang fight. there have been plenty of nutso liberals, i am quite certain you have very very little in common with them aside from maybe voting for the same person on election day... likely for largely different reasons.
thats whats funny to me about politics... everybody has a different reason for why they vote the way they do, for what ideals and talking points motivate them to support one candidate over another, but yet as soon as the shit starts to fly we (WE, meaning all of us) instantly try and project the worst the opposing party has to offer onto whomever we are interacting with... it happens in nearly every thread, conversation, what ever.... why is it that we all want to make the best America we can have, but we project the worst in our minds on our fellow Americans?
remember folks.... profiling is wrong!
And you wonder why i would blow up threads like this back when it was all liberals talking badly about Conservatives.... well, the above post is your answer. Have a Great day now and God Bless you!!
Quote: @Sir Viking Bob VWO said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Everything you say is true. I grew up a republican as well. Voted for Reagan in '84. I have no problem with those who favor less regulation, limited government, states rights, etc. You want to have a debate about the role of government or progressive vs. a flat tax, I'm all for it. I have a lot of respect for intellectual conservatives like Bill Kristol and George Will. I disagree with them, but they're sane, rational people who can support their arguments. They actually HAVE an argument.
But that's not the world we live in right now. This is not left vs. right politics as normal. This is not merely a "list of political disagreements." We have a racist, misogynistic President with a serious psychiatric disorder and the temperament of an 11-year-old girl, who has emboldened dangerous people everywhere...not to mention the world's two most volatile dictators, all the while alienating our most important allies. He has called the American media the "enemy of the people" (sound familiar?) and not so subtly encouraged violence against reporters. Now, if his supporters were intellectual conservatives like Kristol or Will, you would have nothing to worry about. But they're not, are they? Just yesterday a man was arrested for threatening to SHOOT Boston Globe reporters for criticizing the president. This is the world we live in now.
What happened to the best and the brightest? You quote John McCain. I think he would love nothing more than to have his death remind people just how far we've descended into madness by electing the worst among us. Remember McCain's defense of Obama, the man he was running against? McCain called him a decent family man with whom he simply had disagreements. Obama was equally magnanimous. McCain told his base he wasn't willing to run the kind of campaign they wanted him to run, and they were furious at him. They wanted a birther. They wanted someone who believed all the nutty stuff about Hillary Clinton, someone who would fight the fight, no matter how far from the truth it was. Someone who believed in conspiracy theories, and listened to people like Alex Jones. Basically they wanted one of their own. And that's exactly who they got.
when you write things like this, do you see how they can be intrepretated as offensive to others? you are basically equating all Trump supporters as non intellectual reporter threating/killing nut jobs.
Bob used to do the same shit and it would derail so many topics... unless you honestly believe that vast majority of Trumps supporters / voters are idiot psychopaths this kind of rhetoric is exactly why this country is on the verge of a political gang fight. there have been plenty of nutso liberals, i am quite certain you have very very little in common with them aside from maybe voting for the same person on election day... likely for largely different reasons.
thats whats funny to me about politics... everybody has a different reason for why they vote the way they do, for what ideals and talking points motivate them to support one candidate over another, but yet as soon as the shit starts to fly we (WE, meaning all of us) instantly try and project the worst the opposing party has to offer onto whomever we are interacting with... it happens in nearly every thread, conversation, what ever.... why is it that we all want to make the best America we can have, but we project the worst in our minds on our fellow Americans?
remember folks.... profiling is wrong!
And you wonder why i would blow up threads like this back when it was all liberals talking badly about Conservatives.... well, the above post is your answer. Have a Great day now and God Bless you!!
I know, and you know why I brought you up in this thread, I asked you many times to tighten the pattern of your choke before firing... or was it paint with a narrower brush? either way... its all the same results, just different people getting pissed off... and equally offensive to those getting unjustly labeled, lumped, or what ever.
Just to summarize my thoughts, I am simply advocating critical analysis and respect of other's views. I am also advocating consistency in how we apply the processes. For instance, I think it is problematic for Republicans who supported all the Bengazi investigations to call for the Russian investigation to be stopped before it is completed. Likewise, I struggle with my own opposition to Cavanaugh as Supreme Court Justice when I think a president should receive a certain amount (not absolute) deference in his court selections. I do think Trump is the result of the polarization of this country but I am hopefully that this may lead us to re-evaluate this polarization and the people and institutions who are responsible for promoting such polarization. Again, talking about inconsistency, I look at a person such as Jerry Falwell Jr. and how he has acted so differently towards democrats and republicans and I think it has exposed his mendacity and made young people look more critically at him and his movement. My hope is the result of these four years is that people will look at things more critically and engage in more respectful and meaningful dialogue about the problems we face. I think demonizing a person, whether it be Obama, Trump, Clinton or Gore (in the case of climate change) does not lend itself to meaningful debate.
For instance, let's take Trump's attack on the press. Is the press the enemy of the people? Clearly, our founding fathers did not think that -- rather the press is an important aspect of America. In fact, I would say attacking the press is un-American and you can see plenty of example of totalitarian regimes who suppress a free press. Now, I know many conservatives will point out that press outlets have political bias. I agree and it always has had political bias. But, I say to my conservative friends, if Obama had said Fox is the enemy of the people, what would you have said? If Obama had refused openly and by name to answer questions by Fox, what would you have said about Obama? Again, it goes back to consistency and critical thought. I believe that the overwhelming evidence in our history is that a free press is essential to our democracy. These are the types of discussions that should be going on.
I can see where this thread is headed.... 
Quote: @VikingOracle said:
Just to summarize my thoughts, I am simply advocating critical analysis and respect of other's views. I am also advocating consistency in how we apply the processes. For instance, I think it is problematic for Republicans who supported all the Bengazi investigations to call for the Russian investigation to be stopped before it is completed. Likewise, I struggle with my own opposition to Cavanaugh as Supreme Court Justice when I think a president should receive a certain amount (not absolute) deference in his court selections. I do think Trump is the result of the polarization of this country but I am hopefully that this may lead us to re-evaluate this polarization and the people and institutions who are responsible for promoting such polarization. Again, talking about inconsistency, I look at a person such as Jerry Falwell Jr. and how he has acted so differently towards democrats and republicans and I think it has exposed his mendacity and made young people look more critically at him and his movement. My hope is the result of these four years is that people will look at things more critically and engage in more respectful and meaningful dialogue about the problems we face. I think demonizing a person, whether it be Obama, Trump, Clinton or Gore (in the case of climate change) does not lend itself to meaningful debate.
For instance, let's take Trump's attack on the press. Is the press the enemy of the people? Clearly, our founding fathers did not think that -- rather the press is an important aspect of America. In fact, I would say attacking the press is un-American and you can see plenty of example of totalitarian regimes who suppress a free press. Now, I know many conservatives will point out that press outlets have political bias. I agree and it always has had political bias. But, I say to my conservative friends, if Obama had said Fox is the enemy of the people, what would you have said? If Obama had refused openly and by name to answer questions by Fox, what would you have said about Obama? Again, it goes back to consistency and critical thought. I believe that the overwhelming evidence in our history is that a free press is essential to our democracy. These are the types of discussions that should be going on.
i used to think the same on the press... I cant find a "news" agency that I can stomach anymore.... honestly I have about 15 news networks on my TV and not one of them will just give me the news. and in this day and age of people going a million directions, who has time to fact check their news sources? I am not advocating any network or news source, i am saying that they all should be under scrutiny in how they are conducting their business and if they cant give the facts in an unbiased manner then they are of no use to the publics interest and shouldnt have free unhindered access. they are no longer a tool for the people to monitor our elected officials, they are tools for the elected officials to control the voters. when integrity comes back to journalism... then I think I would get behind your call for laying off the media.
|
